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OfflinePDU
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Activism...
    #8019265 - 02/13/08 07:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Looking to get a discussion going regarding anything to do with activism.

I placed this in P&S because i believe that the choice to create change/help others is one that stems from personal philosophy inherent in those with a greater understanding of things.

What are your thoughts, or experiences with activism/activists? Or, what do you think is the place of activists within contemporary modern culture (especially 1st world.)


--------------------
GO OUTSIDE.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Activism... [Re: PDU]
    #8019841 - 02/13/08 09:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Hey friend! :awesome:

This is a really broad subject and it's hard to decide where to start... there are so many kinds of activism/activists.  But I'll give it a shot and just sort of generally comment on a couple of larger themes; maybe then we can narrow down the discussion to a few specific areas.

I love some activist projects while I have serious qualms with others. Generally speaking though, I think that it's important and awesome to be actively engaged in the world around you and not just live in a cozy, isolated bubble. I definitly have more interest in "direct action" than symbolic acts. I don't think that begging the government to please change things is very appealing or effective (i.e. petitioning, placard waving.)

There is also the issue of how so many people think of activism as a specialized role, something to be done by careerists or 'professionals' whether those labels are formal or self-assumed, and something that is seperate from daily life. Alot of people also get into activism to alleviate thier guilt complexes and not because they feel that what they are doing is integral to thier own life in any meaningful way.

Personally, I have a very local focus, as I believe that it is in our own interest and capacity to transform the conditions of our own lives (in a broad sense, not just a personal sense,) and that taking steps to do so not only improves the conditions in which we exist, but inspires people near and far to take similar steps in thier own lives and communities.


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Activism... [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8020316 - 02/13/08 11:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:

There is also the issue of how so many people think of activism as a specialized role, something to be done by careerists or 'professionals' whether those labels are formal or self-assumed, and something that is seperate from daily life. Alot of people also get into activism to alleviate thier guilt complexes and not because they feel that what they are doing is integral to thier own life in any meaningful way.




very true..

Quote:

Personally, I have a very local focus, as I believe that it is in our own interest and capacity to transform the conditions of our own lives (in a broad sense, not just a personal sense,) and that taking steps to do so not only improves the conditions in which we exist, but inspires people near and far to take similar steps in thier own lives and communities.




This logic makes sense, as ive observed that even in small communities intentional change certainly does have the domino effect for facilitating change.

____


I would like to be more involved and proactive in the future, where-ever i may be - Around here *direct action* doesn't really exist. I practice very passive forms of activism; living simply, community building + discussion, street marches *gak*, selective shopping, and a general rejection of that which i deem wrong in the community/society.. However, would like to reach a wider audience to "spread the good word."

Needless to say, it feels hopeless to say that is the best i can do in a small community where not much is going on... Although to be honest i have been very apathetic towards working in a religious based community kitchen or something similar..

Id like to do something outside of my own life but dont know how.

Edit - Direct action is something that requires a like minded community. I believe that is what i lack, and why i find getting involved difficult.

Wondering if anyone has any real experience with volunteer work, or any forms of activism?


--------------------
GO OUTSIDE.


Edited by PDU (02/13/08 11:34 PM)


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Activism... [Re: PDU]
    #8020530 - 02/14/08 12:00 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

A fun sort of direct action that you can do where you live, regardless of the size of the supportive community around you, is guerilla gardening. Find an abandoned lot and plant a food garden there that you plan on eating from and better yet, make it an open community garden. The food could even go to a 'food not bombs' project. I assume you know what that is, but for the sake of everyone else: link.

Squatting is another awesome (similar) type of direct action, and it's especially relevant where there is a rapidly rising cost of living. Squatting can either be public, in the form of protest against the rising cost of rent or agitating for social housing, or it can be low key if you actually want to stay there longer term and not get evicted.

Direct action may require some kind of like minded community, but not necessarily all that many people. Just a couple of close friends can be plenty. Although, of course it's always nice to have a wider network! (But that's the beauty of travelling.)

Also, when isolated you can always do things like write letters to prisoners (Jeff "Free" Luers for example.) Or write zines, or make copies of zines you really like to share with your community. You can give them out at shows to create a dialogue with the people in your scene. In fact, I have a shit load of these things if you want 'em. I'll send you a bunch of stuff, or just bring it over the next time I'm up your way!:thumbup:

These are just a few ideas, but hopefully some of it's appealing to you. I've been in/around this sort of stuff for years... I'm full of ideas, references, and mostly a lot of radical theory if you wanna hit me up about it.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Activism... [Re: PDU]
    #8021117 - 02/14/08 05:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Working towards a goal is one thing. Becoming identified with it as part of yourself is a waste of time and energy. The very word "activism" implies that it is your new religion.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibledblaney
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Posts: 7,894
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Re: Activism... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8021512 - 02/14/08 09:08 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Not necessarily. An -ism CAN mean a religion, but in my mind, it can also mean the practice of something...cynicism, skepticism, activism, etc.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Activism... [Re: dblaney]
    #8021561 - 02/14/08 09:21 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I didn't disagree that working towards a goal or common goal is not beneficial. I did say "Becoming identified with it as part of yourself is a waste of time and energy". Now about the ism....I hadn't thought of that, but I was referring to the process of surrendering your freedom for the conditions imposed by others which activism often requires....unless you are a lone activist, which is quite rare.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: Activism... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8021606 - 02/14/08 09:34 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I was referring to the process of surrendering your freedom for the conditions imposed by others which activism often requires....unless you are a lone activist, which is quite rare.




Oh, okay cool. I'm curious also what you mean by the above quote. How does activism involve surrendering freedom for the conditions imposed by others?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Activism... [Re: PDU]
    #8021634 - 02/14/08 09:39 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I believe activism can be a very important practice, regardless of whether it is your career or a hobby. Our world is filled with division and strife and much suffering caused from politics and selfish practices. Working to end those and promote peace, unity, justice, and compassion is one of the most important thing that any human being can do, IMO.

From a practical standpoint, it is also very easy to get caught up in activism or create much suffering for yourself because your vision of an ideal or good world is not the way things presently are. I think true activism comes when you are able to completely accept the way things currently are, and then work to transform the world from that solid foundation. So non-attachment is critical with activism, just as it is in all other areas in life. Non-attachment to your ideals and hopes and to the results of your efforts.

As activists, things may never be the way we want them to be, but that's okay, we can still work to transform our world, even if our efforts do not bear fruit right away.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Activism... [Re: PDU]
    #8021676 - 02/14/08 09:51 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PDU said:
Looking to get a discussion going regarding anything to do with activism.

I placed this in P&S because i believe that the choice to create change/help others is one that stems from personal philosophy inherent in those with a greater understanding of things.

What are your thoughts, or experiences with activism/activists? Or, what do you think is the place of activists within contemporary modern culture (especially 1st world.)




I have little use for activism. You cannot change others with your personal philosophy and if (?) you have a greater understanding of things only those who have gained their own readiness to change can be stimulated by what you know or think you know. Those people are very few and will find what they need with or without you.

Trying to change society at large is only window dressing IMO. Or, "the more things change the more they stay the same".

Much better to be a living example of change and then keep your mouth shut. (advice I will most likely never take, but then I'm under no illusion about changing anything)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: Activism... [Re: Icelander]
    #8021715 - 02/14/08 10:02 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I don't know if there is any sort of universal statement that can be made about activism.

Ice, what you're saying definitely sounds as if you're making a universal assertion. In some circumstances and with some issues it may be more appropriate to be silent and simply walk the walk yourself. In other circumstances and other issues, it can be far more appropriate to stand up for the ideals of peace, unity, justice, reason and compassion. If not you, then who? If not now, then when?

Take the Holocaust for instance. Activists during that time period were able to save lives by helping prisoners escape. They were able to help hide people and save lives. Those who stayed silent and worked only on changing themselves to fit some ideal image could have made a tangible difference: saving lives, promoting reason and compassion.

Furthermore, those who choose to work solely on changing themselves are only buying into the idea that there is someone there that CAN be changed. It reinforces selfishness and leaves behind the unnecessary suffering and pain that is present all around the world.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Activism... [Re: dblaney]
    #8021749 - 02/14/08 10:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ice, what you're saying definitely sounds as if you're making a universal assertion.

Gee ya think?

In other circumstances and other issues, it can be far more appropriate to stand up for the ideals of peace, unity, justice, reason and compassion.

Well that might be fun but it doesn't really change much IMO.

If not you, then who? If not now, then when?


Not me and not now.

Take the Holocaust for instance. Activists during that time period were able to save lives by helping prisoners escape. They were able to help hide people and save lives. Those who stayed silent and worked only on changing themselves to fit some ideal image could have made a tangible difference: saving lives, promoting reason and compassion.

And please tell me about how all the killing, torture, genocide etc has all lessened because of that activism.


Furthermore, those who choose to work solely on changing themselves are only buying into the idea that there is someone there that CAN be changed. It reinforces selfishness and leaves behind the unnecessary suffering and pain that is present all around the world.


Back to the silly and unprovable belief that we don't do everything we do for our own benefit. (god please don't make us go through this again. :tongue:) Yes there is something that can be changed in oneself, YOUR ATTITUDE. The world will always have lots of pain and suffering is a choice and only those that become self-aware enough to change there attitude can effect change in their choice to embrace suffering.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Activism... [Re: Icelander]
    #8021803 - 02/14/08 10:28 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I agree with you Ice. Activism is a process where one puts ones self into conflict with others to force change. The only thing I can change is myself. In my view conflict only creates conflict.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Activism... [Re: dblaney]
    #8021810 - 02/14/08 10:29 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

How does activism involve surrendering freedom for the conditions imposed by others?




What movement doesn't have leaders?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibledblaney
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Loc: Here & Now
Re: Activism... [Re: Icelander]
    #8021817 - 02/14/08 10:32 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Ice, what you're saying definitely sounds as if you're making a universal assertion.

Gee ya think?




Obviously yes, otherwise why would I be saying that?

Quote:

Take the Holocaust for instance. Activists during that time period were able to save lives by helping prisoners escape. They were able to help hide people and save lives. Those who stayed silent and worked only on changing themselves to fit some ideal image could have made a tangible difference: saving lives, promoting reason and compassion.

And please tell me about how all the killing, torture, genocide etc has all lessened because of that activism.




Where did I say that killing, torture, and genocide lessened because of that activism? You're missing the point. I'm saying that as a direct result of activism, many people that otherwise would have been subjected to brutal conditions and probably a horrible execution were able to escape. Indirectly, this sort of activism also helps to inspire people and create change within their selves.

Quote:

Furthermore, those who choose to work solely on changing themselves are only buying into the idea that there is someone there that CAN be changed. It reinforces selfishness and leaves behind the unnecessary suffering and pain that is present all around the world.

Back to the silly and unprovable belief that we don't do everything we do for our own benefit. (god please don't make us go through this again. :tongue:) Yes there is something that can be changed in oneself, YOUR ATTITUDE. The world will always have lots of pain and suffering is a choice and only those that become self-aware enough to change there attitude can effect change in their choice to embrace suffering.




Again, you're putting words into my mouth. Please show me where I asserted that everything we do is not for our own benefit? I totally agree that your attitude can be changed.

But what you're saying is that suffering is a choice, and that everyone can free themselves from it. While ultimately, yes, everyone can free themselves from suffering, it is naive to think that everyone is innately able to do so and will do so. In fact, most people will not do so, probably because most people do not see suffering as a choice. Who, honestly, would choose to suffer? Most people, I contend, see suffering as an inevitability. The wise and compassionate thing to do, IMO, would be to show that it is not an inevitability. Sometimes, that involves simply working on yourself. Other times, it involves going out into the world and taking action. If you want to relieve your own suffering, don't you think everyone else does too? Why let them suffer when you are able to make a tangible impact and reduce their suffering?

Quote:

In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . .And by that time there was no one left to speak up."




--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Activism... [Re: dblaney]
    #8021861 - 02/14/08 10:45 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Again, you're putting words into my mouth. Please show me where I asserted that everything we do is not for our own benefit? I totally agree that your attitude can be changed.


You said It reinforces selfishness

How can we "reinforce" something we already do with each act? You said it now own it.

You also said it is an illusion that something can change in oneself.are only buying into the idea that there is someone there that CAN be changed. You said it now own it.

Actually the Holocaust ended not because of activism (unless you call war activism) but because the US soldiers made it into Germany to stop that madness.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (02/14/08 10:46 AM)


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Activism... [Re: Icelander]
    #8021897 - 02/14/08 10:57 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ice, come on. You really don't think that activism is capable of changing anything? What about the civil rights movement? Or the women's suffrage movement? Or the labour movement? Yes, there are still massive problems of racism, sexism and class oppression, but alot of people poured thier love and blood into these struggles and they certainly have had an effect. Last time I checked, black people were allowed to drink from the same water fountains as white people. :shrug:

And while we're on the subject of the holocaust I might add: The Jews that participated in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising had a higher rate of survival than those that just went along passively.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Activism... [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8021908 - 02/14/08 10:59 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I would say that the best activists are artists.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Activism... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #8021932 - 02/14/08 11:04 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I would say that a wide diversity of approaches are necessary, as it is more effective to act on many fronts than on just one. So yes, artists are awesome and an important element, but they don't replace the important work done by people with different abilities and interests.

Martin Luther King and Malcolm X needed each other, no matter how much they differed, and they admitted as much. Gandhi was (suprise!) only one element in the liberation of India from colonial control. One narrow tactic rarely stands on it's own.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Activism... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #8021943 - 02/14/08 11:07 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I like black bloc, it's so action packed!



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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Activism... [Re: deranger]
    #8021984 - 02/14/08 11:18 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I like the black bloc too. That's a big one, where is it?

Although I have some criticism of the large protest tourism that was so big a few years back. After Seattle there were a few good ones, but the police really got thier shit together and now it's pretty crazy. Of course street fighting is very exhilarating, and it can transform ones perception of space and agency, which is pretty much the best reason to do it.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Activism... [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8022033 - 02/14/08 11:34 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

not sure where this one is, just found the video on youtube.

i enjoy this kind of activism, it attracts a lot of people's attention and stirs shit up. my kind of action!

though this sort of activism (or any activism for that matter) may not change the minds of those in power with an agenda, it is still one hell of a way to spread awareness.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Activism... [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8022114 - 02/14/08 11:57 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Ice, come on. You really don't think that activism is capable of changing anything? What about the civil rights movement? Or the women's suffrage movement? Or the labour movement? Yes, there are still massive problems of racism, sexism and class oppression, but alot of people poured thier love and blood into these struggles and they certainly have had an effect. Last time I checked, black people were allowed to drink from the same water fountains as white people. :shrug:

And while we're on the subject of the holocaust I might add: The Jews that participated in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising had a higher rate of survival than those that just went along passively.




Ice, come on.

OK but you're driving.

OK I'll concede that activism can change something. IMO it's local and temporary. But that's no reason not to do it if you believe in it. For myself the ups and downs of my fellow humans are of little concern to me. My goals are not theirs and so we follow a different path for the most part. I know I am dreaming and my dream is personal. In my dream I have a few true friends. They take up all my available space which isn't much.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Activism... [Re: Icelander]
    #8022881 - 02/14/08 03:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Again, you're putting words into my mouth. Please show me where I asserted that everything we do is not for our own benefit? I totally agree that your attitude can be changed.


You said It reinforces selfishness




How can we "reinforce" something we already do with each act? You said it now own it.

You also said it is an illusion that something can change in oneself.are only buying into the idea that there is someone there that CAN be changed. You said it now own it.

Actually the Holocaust ended not because of activism (unless you call war activism) but because the US soldiers made it into Germany to stop that madness.




Yes, I said that trying to change oneself reinforces selfishness. How do you go from that to telling me that I was making some universal assertion about selflessness? I will not own it because I didn't say it. You're twisting my words.

Yes, I said that working to try to change yourself is based on the idea that there is someone that CAN be changed. I didn't say that change doesn't happen or that it's impossible. I don't know whether you're twisting my words or just misinterpreting what I'm saying. Either way, look at what I actually am saying, not what you think I am saying. Our discussions tend to get side tracked and bogged down in issues like this. If you want me to clarify what I am saying, then ask me that. Please don't go jumping to conclusions.

Lastly, I have said NOTHING about activism ending the Holocaust. NOTHING. I did say it did other things, but never did I say that the Holocaust ended because of activism.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Activism... [Re: PDU]
    #8023369 - 02/14/08 05:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Does the Cacophony Society and Operation Mindfuck count as activism?


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Activism... [Re: Icelander]
    #8023413 - 02/14/08 05:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Back to the silly and unprovable belief that we don't do everything we do for our own benefit.




:what:

The existence of strong altruism and reciprocal altruism in humans and other animals has been empirically verified.


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Re: Activism... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #8023962 - 02/14/08 07:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I would say that the best activists are artists.




This is what my roommates believe.

And i agree to an extent, however i do understand the mentality that artists (especially musical) stretch peoples paradigms to include new ways of thinking (john lennon) or issues (rage against the machine, etc.)

To dispute that "the best activists are artists," through What ive seen in the form of change through music (in my lifetime) is seldom something real proactive on a social level (in contrast to the rock n roll' and hippie movements of the past). But - more so on a personal level and even then it seems superficial (how many zapatistas did zach delarocha's preaching save?)

Of course, there are punk communities/artists with very progressive pro human rights/animal rights/sexual rights/social rights messages who live somewhat of what they preach.

I do beleive in things like Food Not Bombs and other grassroots movements to aid those in need out of compassion, more so than other greater causes. As niamnyx said - we need to localize our actions and work in our own communities before focusing on "international aid" or something like that...

I am currently starting my first zine "confessions of an automobile owner." for the very reasons she mentioned - to open a dialogue among my peers.

Aswell i am trying to organize a puppet show before i go travelling with a couple extroverted creative friends of mine, to present at a basement show soon... (pipe dream?!)

Anyways, i think HELPING PEOPLE out of compassion has a very important role in society, and that spreading non discriminatory awareness is equally important.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Activism... [Re: PDU]
    #8024026 - 02/14/08 07:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Here is one for the feminists:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/highschool/02/13/female.official.ap/index.html?cnn=yes

Address:

Father Vincent Griego
St. Mary's Academy & College
200 E. Mission Street
St. Marys, KS  66536

You know what to do.  :uptosomething:


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Re: Activism... [Re: Icelander]
    #8024028 - 02/14/08 07:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
OK I'll concede that activism can change something. IMO it's local and temporary. But that's no reason not to do it if you believe in it. For myself the ups and downs of my fellow humans are of little concern to me. My goals are not theirs and so we follow a different path for the most part. I know I am dreaming and my dream is personal. In my dream I have a few true friends. They take up all my available space which isn't much.




For the most part i agree with this. My less thought out companion seems to think we have the numbers to start a revolution in the streets..

I think it is very flawed to try and target the BIG issues and expect to change them in most cases. Small community organization - Direct communication seems to be one of the most important factors in stimulating discussion and eventually change..

Another area that i feel passionate about, is Drug policy reform - especially in light of Stephen Harpers new mandatory minimums.. But besides talking about how it sucks, dont know where to start.


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Re: Activism... [Re: Icelander]
    #8024481 - 02/14/08 08:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

OK I'll concede that activism can change something. IMO it's local and temporary. But that's no reason not to do it if you believe in it. For myself the ups and downs of my fellow humans are of little concern to me. My goals are not theirs and so we follow a different path for the most part. I know I am dreaming and my dream is personal. In my dream I have a few true friends. They take up all my available space which isn't much.




I think that perhaps you and I share an instinctive distaste for the way that activism is usually a set of activities removed from the personal lives, goals and desires of the activists themselves. This is why I don't call myself an 'activist' or engage in what is usually called 'activism.' Yet I am strongly committed to the idea that things can and must change, and that in my own life I can contribute to tipping inertia in the right direction. My activity must be rooted in my life and my desires, and not come from any sense of duty or obligation. I'm not interested in alleviating a guilt complex, or swooping into a community that isn't my own with my "superior" education or theory. I think attitudes like that are really negative and paternalistic and they only recreate the attitudes and conditions that I object to.

First of all, any struggle I engage in, I come into because I recognize that my own interests are bound up in it, that I personally stand to grow and broaden my own freedom through those struggles. If I act in solidarity with anyone outside of my community, it is because I see parallels and interconnections between us. I take a great deal of interest in indigenous anti-colonial struggles because I see my own freedom compromised and diminished by the same institutions that they struggle against.

Don't get me wrong, when I talk about acting locally, I don't mean that acting in solidarity with people from other communities or countries is not worthwhile. The opposite is true. The problems that I face in my own community are global, and are shared by people on all continents. I believe that we all stand to gain from the global destruction of capitalism. That the world as a whole would be better off as a network of decentralized communties where power is localised and equality is cherished. But my activity is most relevant and effective in my own community, and so I am interested primarily in regional concerns.

ps- I'm ever so stoked that I actually convinced you to concede a point, Ice. This is a truly fulfilling and thrilling moment! :wink:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Activism... [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8024495 - 02/14/08 08:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The invisible hand will never die.


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Re: Activism... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8024513 - 02/14/08 08:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The "invisible hand" is a feature of capitalism. If you think it will never die, I don't believe you understand what it is.


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Re: Activism... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8024555 - 02/14/08 09:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:

Back to the silly and unprovable belief that we don't do everything we do for our own benefit.




:what:

The existence of strong altruism and reciprocal altruism in humans and other animals has been empirically verified.




sorry bub. Not so. everything we do is self directed including altruism. I do for others because I BELIEVE THAT IT IS GOOD. This is so self evident that no one but a few here can see it.:tongue: But somehow I thought you would be one of the few.


Edited by Icelander (02/14/08 09:12 PM)


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Re: Activism... [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8024587 - 02/14/08 09:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yet I am strongly committed to the idea that things can and must change, and that in my own life I can contribute to tipping inertia in the right direction.

I'm now older and jaded to this concept. I no longer find it useful. Nothing must change for me and the last thing I believe is that I can tip any balance in a direction that looks good to me. The rest of your first paragraph I agree with.

ps- I'm ever so stoked that I actually convinced you to concede a point, Ice. This is a truly fulfilling and thrilling moment! You are truly a powerful female warrior. Icelander is impressed.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Activism... [Re: Icelander]
    #8024607 - 02/14/08 09:22 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Birds have no concept of "good" (and probably no concept of "self"), yet some species of bird have strong altruistic behaviors.

Psychologists and ethologist have both documented behaviors that directly harm an organisms own self-interest.

Rational self-interest is dogma.


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Re: Activism... [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8024618 - 02/14/08 09:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The invisible hand is a theory of value, a theory which also happens to have been praised by Marx.


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Re: Activism... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8024619 - 02/14/08 09:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

OK fuck the birds because I can't know what causes their actions or what motivates them.

Now give me one example of a human performing a selfless act.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Activism... [Re: Icelander]
    #8024661 - 02/14/08 09:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Reciprocal altruism is a form of altruism grounded in rational self interest. As social creatures that rely on others for the fulfillment of our needs and desires, behaving cooperatively is the obvious and natural way to achieve these needs in most cases. It ain't the self-sacraficial thing altruism is usually made out to be. :smirk:


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Re: Activism... [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8024678 - 02/14/08 09:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:thumbup: I keep  saying this but almost no one gets it. Thanks for putting it so succinctly wonder woman.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Activism... [Re: Icelander]
    #8024754 - 02/14/08 09:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It'd be difficult to constantly give and give when those you are giving to never return the love. But communistic sharing is a pretty great way to ensure that everyone gets as good and as much as the rest and also creates interconnection and bonds of trust, thus increasing the wellbeing and solidarity of the whole community.

Thanks for the grand compliment! :awesome:

I'm actually gearing up to write a paper on this very subject... that rational self interest is natural and that it's rational conclusion is actually egalitarianism. The Liberal capitalist conception of it is grounded in a complex of enforced competitive behaviour and requires we be totally alienated from one another.


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Re: Activism... [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8024785 - 02/14/08 09:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

that rational self interest is natural and that it's rational conclusion is actually egalitarianism.

Finally someone talking my language. It's been a mystery to me that the human race doesn't grok this better. I can only suspect a fatal flaw.:(


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Activism... [Re: Icelander]
    #8024900 - 02/14/08 10:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Now give me one example of a human performing a selfless act.




I guess this depends how we are actually defining selfless action. I understand it to mean action that is not motivated or otherwise "tainted" by the our self-concept or any of its many attachments, etc.

Take an example of someone about to be hit by a speeding car. There are only a matter of moments before they are hit. There happens to be a single person nearby, who notices what is happening. There is no time for them to judge the situation based on their values, or whether they think they will somehow benefit, or what they think the 'right' or 'wrong' thing to do would be. There is simply the perception of another being and a car headed towards them. The person simply jumps and tries to get the other person out of the way, even as they endanger their own well-being. This to me is an act that is not motivated by the self.

Selfless doesn't necessarily mean devoid of self. I don't think that would even be possible. But rather, I think it means seeing through the self and its structures, and not indulging in it.

Maybe it would be better to say that selfless action is non-action. Action as it is usually understood is based on the self. Non-action is not performed by an actor, so perhaps that is a better phrase to use in order to clarify.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Re: Activism... [Re: Icelander]
    #8024989 - 02/14/08 10:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

Finally someone talking my language. It's been a mystery to me that the human race doesn't grok this better. I can only suspect a fatal flaw.:(




I don't think it's the fault of the human race to grasp this, but rather, powerful people with an agenda to maintain thier own power and wealth. It's in the rational self interest of the vast majority of the population to immediately remove these people from thier positions of power and restructure our society to better suit our true needs. However, it's often difficult to see ones own self interest in a manner any broader than the immediate day-to-day struggle to survive in adverse, competitive conditions... or beyond the carrot on the stick. One or both of these heavily influence the vast majority of people in our society. And for those that do see where thier rational self interest really lies, there is the monumental frustration of recognizing the many ways people are manipulated into tacit complicity with the theft of thier own lives. And there is also the fear of repression. No one wants a SWAT team showing up at thier apartment. Its simply easier to sacrafice ones truly rational interests in the face of all the forces that exist to prevent any rupture with the existent.


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Re: Activism... [Re: dblaney]
    #8026476 - 02/15/08 10:02 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Take an example of someone about to be hit by a speeding car. There are only a matter of moments before they are hit. There happens to be a single person nearby, who notices what is happening. There is no time for them to judge the situation based on their values, or whether they think they will somehow benefit, or what they think the 'right' or 'wrong' thing to do would be. There is simply the perception of another being and a car headed towards them. The person simply jumps and tries to get the other person out of the way, even as they endanger their own well-being. This to me is an act that is not motivated by the self.


So lets say that this person who acts had never been socialized and had never had any prior thoughts concerning personal values. They were instinctual and nothing but. Do you think they would perform that virtuous action? Not too likely.

Each of us I'm guessing has a set of values in place based on what we think is the good and how we think we should act to be the kind of person we believe ourselves to be. These are programs we develop and are running in us at all times. These values are important because they help us to think of ourselves as good people and see ourselves as good and doing what is the highest good. Now I think most of us have imagined ourselves saving someone in just such a manner as your example and have felt that warm glow of being the hero or good person. Now don't you think that would have some influence on that instantaneous action? I certainly do.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Activism... [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8026486 - 02/15/08 10:05 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Quote:

Icelander said:

Finally someone talking my language. It's been a mystery to me that the human race doesn't grok this better. I can only suspect a fatal flaw.:(




I don't think it's the fault of the human race to grasp this, but rather, powerful people with an agenda to maintain thier own power and wealth. It's in the rational self interest of the vast majority of the population to immediately remove these people from thier positions of power and restructure our society to better suit our true needs. However, it's often difficult to see ones own self interest in a manner any broader than the immediate day-to-day struggle to survive in adverse, competitive conditions... or beyond the carrot on the stick. One or both of these heavily influence the vast majority of people in our society. And for those that do see where thier rational self interest really lies, there is the monumental frustration of recognizing the many ways people are manipulated into tacit complicity with the theft of thier own lives. And there is also the fear of repression. No one wants a SWAT team showing up at thier apartment. Its simply easier to sacrafice ones truly rational interests in the face of all the forces that exist to prevent any rupture with the existent.




This is the fatal flaw I'm referring to.  Thanks for typing it all out for me.:lol: Humans are basically cowards and self serving in service  to their fears.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Activism... [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8027662 - 02/15/08 02:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:

I believe that we all stand to gain from the global destruction of capitalism.




Quote:

that rational self interest is natural and that it's rational conclusion is actually egalitarianism.




I actually think Capitalism is the best possible mechanism to move towards egalitarianism. Have you read Guns, Germs, and Steel? Societies and cultures have evolved to the point they are now bcs, of the differences in environment. Life is not fair bcs it really did not start off that way. But Capitalism and its concepts of private ownership and free trade are the key to the freedom of the individual. And global capitalism can be a way to equalize the imbalances that exist in the world. We were meant to trade (share) with each other.

To me there are two kinds of capitalism, active (conscious) and passive (unconscious). An active capitalist is aware of his role, effect, and power in the big picture. Profits at another's expense does not have to be the end result of capitalism. Its just that the majority of participants follow that model. Only way to change this is thru education.

Quote:

I don't think it's the fault of the human race to grasp this, but rather, powerful people with an agenda to maintain thier own power and wealth. It's in the rational self interest of the vast majority of the population to immediately remove these people from thier positions of power and restructure our society to better suit our true needs.




Sure those who are in charge of institutions want control. But it is only obtained as long as individuals, regardless of social or economic status, relinquish their responsibility and power to these institutions. They will always be subordinate to them as long as they believe they are. We all suffer from insecurities that make us blinded to the awesome power that we as an individual possesses. Its in the best interest of the majority to become aware of their responsibility as a participant of market forces and learn to become active capitalist.


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Re: Activism... [Re: GnosticWarrior]
    #8027760 - 02/15/08 03:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i didn't read the whole thread, so this may have been said already.

i don't really like the standard protester activities, so instead i try and just talk with people i meet. whatever the situation i'm in i do my best to bring up alternative lifestyle or political possibilities.

my favorite thing to rant about is the education system.


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Re: Activism... [Re: GnosticWarrior]
    #8027793 - 02/15/08 03:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

GnosticWarrior said:
Quote:

NiamhNyx said:

I believe that we all stand to gain from the global destruction of capitalism.




Quote:

that rational self interest is natural and that it's rational conclusion is actually egalitarianism.




I actually think Capitalism is the best possible mechanism to move towards egalitarianism. Have you read Guns, Germs, and Steel? Societies and cultures have evolved to the point they are now bcs, of the differences in environment. Life is not fair bcs it really did not start off that way. But Capitalism and its concepts of private ownership and free trade are the key to the freedom of the individual. And global capitalism can be a way to equalize the imbalances that exist in the world. We were meant to trade (share) with each other.

To me there are two kinds of capitalism, active (conscious) and passive (unconscious). An active capitalist is aware of his role, effect, and power in the big picture. Profits at another's expense does not have to be the end result of capitalism. Its just that the majority of participants follow that model. Only way to change this is thru education.

Quote:

I don't think it's the fault of the human race to grasp this, but rather, powerful people with an agenda to maintain thier own power and wealth. It's in the rational self interest of the vast majority of the population to immediately remove these people from thier positions of power and restructure our society to better suit our true needs.




Sure those who are in charge of institutions want control. But it is only obtained as long as individuals, regardless of social or economic status, relinquish their responsibility and power to these institutions. They will always be subordinate to them as long as they believe they are. We all suffer from insecurities that make us blinded to the awesome power that we as an individual possesses. Its in the best interest of the majority to become aware of their responsibility as a participant of market forces and learn to become active capitalist.




Well there is nothing wrong with true capitalism. It (because of human nature, which is mostly fear based) never seems to be practiced though.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Activism... [Re: Icelander]
    #8027917 - 02/15/08 03:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

gnostic warrior you have the same idea as me, except in my head i call it "compassionate capitalism"

and yes i think the only way it'll come around is through education, and hopefully a trend of people wanting to buy goods made from companies with healthy business practices


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Re: Activism... [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8027951 - 02/15/08 04:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, I'm holdin my breath.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Activism... [Re: Icelander]
    #8028124 - 02/15/08 04:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Yeah, I'm holdin my breath.




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Re: Activism... [Re: Icelander]
    #8029121 - 02/15/08 08:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Well there is nothing wrong with true capitalism. It (because of human nature, which is mostly fear based) never seems to be practiced though.




I just wanted to clarify that I believe that the concepts of Capitalism such as private ownership and free trade are not the real problems. But yes, instead it is the human nature of the practice and that means there will always be a negative aspect to it. Human nature ensures a negative aspect to any system.

Those who oppose capitalism and corporations, imo would be better served to sudy it more. What would be the alternatives? The tools and vehicles for cooperation between people are currently available, especially in the U.S. All it takes is to get organized.

If those who oppose capitalism want govt. to surpress capitalism, what they're saying is that they will support and empower an institution to restrict the freedoms of the individual. Corporations are also viewed as individuals by the U.S. govt. I also think it can fit the description of an institution too. But I would favor the institution of corps. vs. govt. I think this would be best for the masses too.


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OfflineGnosticWarrior
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Re: Activism... [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8029235 - 02/15/08 09:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

truekimbo2 said:
gnostic warrior you have the same idea as me, except in my head i call it "compassionate capitalism"

and yes i think the only way it'll come around is through education, and hopefully a trend of people wanting to buy goods made from companies with healthy business practices




Maybe we can callaborate on something some day?  I hope the Shroomery can be an incubator of such ideas. :thumbup:

But any business must be profitable to be sustainable.  That's the hard part.  The owners and employees must be willing to accept meager monetary compensation in exchange for some sort of intangible compensation that is just as much wanted and needed.  The business might also have to run a negative cash flow for an extended period of time, until consumers can recognize the full value of the product is also intangible and that is what they are paying for.


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Activism... [Re: GnosticWarrior]
    #8029317 - 02/15/08 09:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yeah gnostic warrior, PMing you semi permanent contact info now.


i think there are so many ways to kick start smart capitalism.

i think one of the worst things about large companies is the crazy idea that the guys at the top deserve to be making 50 million a year or whatever and the guys at the bottom deserve to make 12k a year.

i would love to found a business where everybody gets an equal share of the profit. i'm thinking a coffee shop sort of place.

aside from that i'm really hoping hollywood catches on to the food co-op local market and health food shit fad.
can you imagine if hollywood pushed for consuming local made products instead of bitching about global warming? it would be awesome.

i have a dream that someday it will be considered cool by the average MTV watching white suburban kid to support compassionate business practices.


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Activism... [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8029388 - 02/15/08 09:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

i would love to found a business where everybody gets an equal share of the profit.




The Randi Million and the Swami $20K would be good seed money to get you started.



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Invisiblederx
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Re: Activism... [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8029407 - 02/15/08 10:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
A fun sort of direct action that you can do where you live, regardless of the size of the supportive community around you, is guerilla gardening. Find an abandoned lot and plant a food garden there that you plan on eating from and better yet, make it an open community garden. The food could even go to a 'food not bombs' project. I assume you know what that is, but for the sake of everyone else: link.





I am actually starting this in my community. I am doing an organic gardening internship this summer and when I return I am working with the local land bank on acquiring some land and starting a community garden. This is great for the locals I believe because I live in a very urban community that is reaking of poverty and no adequate shopping within walking distance.


--------------------
better living through chemistry

OVERGROW the government!!

it's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom, ok, thats what it is.


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Activism... [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8030169 - 02/16/08 05:09 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
.... it's often difficult to see ones own self interest in a manner any broader than the immediate day-to-day struggle to survive in adverse, competitive conditions... or beyond the carrot on the stick. One or both of these heavily influence the vast majority of people in our society. And for those that do see where thier rational self interest really lies, there is the monumental frustration of recognizing the many ways people are manipulated into tacit complicity with the theft of thier own lives. And there is also the fear of repression. No one wants a SWAT team showing up at thier apartment. Its simply easier to sacrafice ones truly rational interests in the face of all the forces that exist to prevent any rupture with the existent.




divide and conquer will work for a long time to come
perhaps forever for man


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Activism... [Re: Lakefingers]
    #8030592 - 02/16/08 09:35 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

i would love to found a business where everybody gets an equal share of the profit. i'm thinking a coffee shop sort of place.




That doesn't seem fair to me. Should the cashier with no risk involvement make the same amount of money as the owner who risked his capital by starting the business?

The only way your example would work is if everyone who works there was an equal partner in the funding of the business.


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OfflineGnosticWarrior
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Re: Activism... [Re: Redstorm]
    #8031336 - 02/16/08 02:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
That doesn't seem fair to me. Should the cashier with no risk involvement make the same amount of money as the owner who risked his capital by starting the business?

The only way your example would work is if everyone who works there was an equal partner in the funding of the business.




This is the common model being used and I do like it. Though, I have ideas of other models that I am not sure would work but could be possible. I believe everyone has something of value to contribute. It is not just capital, for this is just one form of contribution.

It's easy to measure capital, time, or statisical output in valuing a person's contributions but what about the intangibles? How can we measure a person's commitment, dedication, focus, attention, concern, and other desireable factors that we do want from all participants?

If these intangibles are indeed valuable and actually add to the bottom line of profits, how can we measure the appropriate compensation for these contributions? I think the easiest way would be to make all participants equal in ownership and therefore profits. Now sure, this model would turn off certain people from contributing capital, especially if someone else contributes less and gets the same slice of the pie. But, pay only a person a wage with no stake in ownership and he or she only contributes what they feel that wage is worth. They'll give you nothing more. I see business where customer service and volume could be a lot better if those wage earning employees thought as owners in how to improve. But they won't bcs, they don't have an real good incentive to actually boost profits.

Here's a story I read in a book:

In Japan, people say that they can see the shape of a rabbit in the surface of the moon. This comes from a children's story of an old Buddhist priest living high upon a mountain to spend the remainder of his life in prayer. This gentle priest was much loved by all the mountain creatures, who were his only companions. But times were very hard, food was scarce, and the old priest was weak with hunger. When word of this reached the animals, they dug into their meager stores and scoured the mountainside in search of food. At last they gathered outside the mouth of the old priest's cave and laid their gifts before him. The squirrel brought nuts, the bear brought sweet wild berries, and the racoon brought fish, fresh from the icy mountain stream. Everyone had brought a gift of food to the starving priest. Everyone, that is except the rabbit, who was very, very poor. All the animals were astonished, and there was much gossip about the uncharitable rabbit. Unconcerned, the rabbit quietly built a blazing fire, and as the flames began to lick the sky, he turned to the priest and said , "I'm sorry, but I am very poor. I have no food. Please, eat of my meat." And before he could be stopped, the rabbit jumped into the fire. Which animal made the true sacrafice?

I don't see why the story of the rabbit cannot be applied to business. It would be hard to measure the true sacrafices of all the participants. But yeah, the hard part would be to be able to find other people to partner with, in which you would feel confident that they were all giving 100% commitment of themsleves to the business. I would worry if I could do it. It would be easier to just give some money or clock in my time and say that my obligation is done. I think a business could evolve to operate on this level, but it could never start off this way. That's the hard part. Who would sacrafice or risk anything, if the other members weren't doing the same?


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