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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Activism... [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8024785 - 02/14/08 09:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

that rational self interest is natural and that it's rational conclusion is actually egalitarianism.

Finally someone talking my language. It's been a mystery to me that the human race doesn't grok this better. I can only suspect a fatal flaw.:(


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Activism... [Re: Icelander]
    #8024900 - 02/14/08 10:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Now give me one example of a human performing a selfless act.




I guess this depends how we are actually defining selfless action. I understand it to mean action that is not motivated or otherwise "tainted" by the our self-concept or any of its many attachments, etc.

Take an example of someone about to be hit by a speeding car. There are only a matter of moments before they are hit. There happens to be a single person nearby, who notices what is happening. There is no time for them to judge the situation based on their values, or whether they think they will somehow benefit, or what they think the 'right' or 'wrong' thing to do would be. There is simply the perception of another being and a car headed towards them. The person simply jumps and tries to get the other person out of the way, even as they endanger their own well-being. This to me is an act that is not motivated by the self.

Selfless doesn't necessarily mean devoid of self. I don't think that would even be possible. But rather, I think it means seeing through the self and its structures, and not indulging in it.

Maybe it would be better to say that selfless action is non-action. Action as it is usually understood is based on the self. Non-action is not performed by an actor, so perhaps that is a better phrase to use in order to clarify.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineNiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Female User Gallery

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: Activism... [Re: Icelander]
    #8024989 - 02/14/08 10:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

Finally someone talking my language. It's been a mystery to me that the human race doesn't grok this better. I can only suspect a fatal flaw.:(




I don't think it's the fault of the human race to grasp this, but rather, powerful people with an agenda to maintain thier own power and wealth. It's in the rational self interest of the vast majority of the population to immediately remove these people from thier positions of power and restructure our society to better suit our true needs. However, it's often difficult to see ones own self interest in a manner any broader than the immediate day-to-day struggle to survive in adverse, competitive conditions... or beyond the carrot on the stick. One or both of these heavily influence the vast majority of people in our society. And for those that do see where thier rational self interest really lies, there is the monumental frustration of recognizing the many ways people are manipulated into tacit complicity with the theft of thier own lives. And there is also the fear of repression. No one wants a SWAT team showing up at thier apartment. Its simply easier to sacrafice ones truly rational interests in the face of all the forces that exist to prevent any rupture with the existent.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Activism... [Re: dblaney]
    #8026476 - 02/15/08 10:02 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Take an example of someone about to be hit by a speeding car. There are only a matter of moments before they are hit. There happens to be a single person nearby, who notices what is happening. There is no time for them to judge the situation based on their values, or whether they think they will somehow benefit, or what they think the 'right' or 'wrong' thing to do would be. There is simply the perception of another being and a car headed towards them. The person simply jumps and tries to get the other person out of the way, even as they endanger their own well-being. This to me is an act that is not motivated by the self.


So lets say that this person who acts had never been socialized and had never had any prior thoughts concerning personal values. They were instinctual and nothing but. Do you think they would perform that virtuous action? Not too likely.

Each of us I'm guessing has a set of values in place based on what we think is the good and how we think we should act to be the kind of person we believe ourselves to be. These are programs we develop and are running in us at all times. These values are important because they help us to think of ourselves as good people and see ourselves as good and doing what is the highest good. Now I think most of us have imagined ourselves saving someone in just such a manner as your example and have felt that warm glow of being the hero or good person. Now don't you think that would have some influence on that instantaneous action? I certainly do.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Activism... [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8026486 - 02/15/08 10:05 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Quote:

Icelander said:

Finally someone talking my language. It's been a mystery to me that the human race doesn't grok this better. I can only suspect a fatal flaw.:(




I don't think it's the fault of the human race to grasp this, but rather, powerful people with an agenda to maintain thier own power and wealth. It's in the rational self interest of the vast majority of the population to immediately remove these people from thier positions of power and restructure our society to better suit our true needs. However, it's often difficult to see ones own self interest in a manner any broader than the immediate day-to-day struggle to survive in adverse, competitive conditions... or beyond the carrot on the stick. One or both of these heavily influence the vast majority of people in our society. And for those that do see where thier rational self interest really lies, there is the monumental frustration of recognizing the many ways people are manipulated into tacit complicity with the theft of thier own lives. And there is also the fear of repression. No one wants a SWAT team showing up at thier apartment. Its simply easier to sacrafice ones truly rational interests in the face of all the forces that exist to prevent any rupture with the existent.




This is the fatal flaw I'm referring to.  Thanks for typing it all out for me.:lol: Humans are basically cowards and self serving in service  to their fears.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineGnosticWarrior
Hermit
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Registered: 03/11/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Oahu, Hawaii
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: Activism... [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8027662 - 02/15/08 02:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:

I believe that we all stand to gain from the global destruction of capitalism.




Quote:

that rational self interest is natural and that it's rational conclusion is actually egalitarianism.




I actually think Capitalism is the best possible mechanism to move towards egalitarianism. Have you read Guns, Germs, and Steel? Societies and cultures have evolved to the point they are now bcs, of the differences in environment. Life is not fair bcs it really did not start off that way. But Capitalism and its concepts of private ownership and free trade are the key to the freedom of the individual. And global capitalism can be a way to equalize the imbalances that exist in the world. We were meant to trade (share) with each other.

To me there are two kinds of capitalism, active (conscious) and passive (unconscious). An active capitalist is aware of his role, effect, and power in the big picture. Profits at another's expense does not have to be the end result of capitalism. Its just that the majority of participants follow that model. Only way to change this is thru education.

Quote:

I don't think it's the fault of the human race to grasp this, but rather, powerful people with an agenda to maintain thier own power and wealth. It's in the rational self interest of the vast majority of the population to immediately remove these people from thier positions of power and restructure our society to better suit our true needs.




Sure those who are in charge of institutions want control. But it is only obtained as long as individuals, regardless of social or economic status, relinquish their responsibility and power to these institutions. They will always be subordinate to them as long as they believe they are. We all suffer from insecurities that make us blinded to the awesome power that we as an individual possesses. Its in the best interest of the majority to become aware of their responsibility as a participant of market forces and learn to become active capitalist.


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Invisibletruekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny Flag
Re: Activism... [Re: GnosticWarrior]
    #8027760 - 02/15/08 03:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i didn't read the whole thread, so this may have been said already.

i don't really like the standard protester activities, so instead i try and just talk with people i meet. whatever the situation i'm in i do my best to bring up alternative lifestyle or political possibilities.

my favorite thing to rant about is the education system.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Activism... [Re: GnosticWarrior]
    #8027793 - 02/15/08 03:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

GnosticWarrior said:
Quote:

NiamhNyx said:

I believe that we all stand to gain from the global destruction of capitalism.




Quote:

that rational self interest is natural and that it's rational conclusion is actually egalitarianism.




I actually think Capitalism is the best possible mechanism to move towards egalitarianism. Have you read Guns, Germs, and Steel? Societies and cultures have evolved to the point they are now bcs, of the differences in environment. Life is not fair bcs it really did not start off that way. But Capitalism and its concepts of private ownership and free trade are the key to the freedom of the individual. And global capitalism can be a way to equalize the imbalances that exist in the world. We were meant to trade (share) with each other.

To me there are two kinds of capitalism, active (conscious) and passive (unconscious). An active capitalist is aware of his role, effect, and power in the big picture. Profits at another's expense does not have to be the end result of capitalism. Its just that the majority of participants follow that model. Only way to change this is thru education.

Quote:

I don't think it's the fault of the human race to grasp this, but rather, powerful people with an agenda to maintain thier own power and wealth. It's in the rational self interest of the vast majority of the population to immediately remove these people from thier positions of power and restructure our society to better suit our true needs.




Sure those who are in charge of institutions want control. But it is only obtained as long as individuals, regardless of social or economic status, relinquish their responsibility and power to these institutions. They will always be subordinate to them as long as they believe they are. We all suffer from insecurities that make us blinded to the awesome power that we as an individual possesses. Its in the best interest of the majority to become aware of their responsibility as a participant of market forces and learn to become active capitalist.




Well there is nothing wrong with true capitalism. It (because of human nature, which is mostly fear based) never seems to be practiced though.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibletruekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny Flag
Re: Activism... [Re: Icelander]
    #8027917 - 02/15/08 03:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

gnostic warrior you have the same idea as me, except in my head i call it "compassionate capitalism"

and yes i think the only way it'll come around is through education, and hopefully a trend of people wanting to buy goods made from companies with healthy business practices


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Activism... [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8027951 - 02/15/08 04:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, I'm holdin my breath.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
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Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: Activism... [Re: Icelander]
    #8028124 - 02/15/08 04:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Yeah, I'm holdin my breath.




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OfflineGnosticWarrior
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Registered: 03/11/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Oahu, Hawaii
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: Activism... [Re: Icelander]
    #8029121 - 02/15/08 08:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Well there is nothing wrong with true capitalism. It (because of human nature, which is mostly fear based) never seems to be practiced though.




I just wanted to clarify that I believe that the concepts of Capitalism such as private ownership and free trade are not the real problems. But yes, instead it is the human nature of the practice and that means there will always be a negative aspect to it. Human nature ensures a negative aspect to any system.

Those who oppose capitalism and corporations, imo would be better served to sudy it more. What would be the alternatives? The tools and vehicles for cooperation between people are currently available, especially in the U.S. All it takes is to get organized.

If those who oppose capitalism want govt. to surpress capitalism, what they're saying is that they will support and empower an institution to restrict the freedoms of the individual. Corporations are also viewed as individuals by the U.S. govt. I also think it can fit the description of an institution too. But I would favor the institution of corps. vs. govt. I think this would be best for the masses too.


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OfflineGnosticWarrior
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Posts: 241
Loc: Oahu, Hawaii
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Re: Activism... [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8029235 - 02/15/08 09:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

truekimbo2 said:
gnostic warrior you have the same idea as me, except in my head i call it "compassionate capitalism"

and yes i think the only way it'll come around is through education, and hopefully a trend of people wanting to buy goods made from companies with healthy business practices




Maybe we can callaborate on something some day?  I hope the Shroomery can be an incubator of such ideas. :thumbup:

But any business must be profitable to be sustainable.  That's the hard part.  The owners and employees must be willing to accept meager monetary compensation in exchange for some sort of intangible compensation that is just as much wanted and needed.  The business might also have to run a negative cash flow for an extended period of time, until consumers can recognize the full value of the product is also intangible and that is what they are paying for.


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Invisibletruekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny Flag
Re: Activism... [Re: GnosticWarrior]
    #8029317 - 02/15/08 09:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yeah gnostic warrior, PMing you semi permanent contact info now.


i think there are so many ways to kick start smart capitalism.

i think one of the worst things about large companies is the crazy idea that the guys at the top deserve to be making 50 million a year or whatever and the guys at the bottom deserve to make 12k a year.

i would love to found a business where everybody gets an equal share of the profit. i'm thinking a coffee shop sort of place.

aside from that i'm really hoping hollywood catches on to the food co-op local market and health food shit fad.
can you imagine if hollywood pushed for consuming local made products instead of bitching about global warming? it would be awesome.

i have a dream that someday it will be considered cool by the average MTV watching white suburban kid to support compassionate business practices.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: Activism... [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8029388 - 02/15/08 09:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

i would love to found a business where everybody gets an equal share of the profit.




The Randi Million and the Swami $20K would be good seed money to get you started.



--------------------


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Invisiblederx
who run it
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Registered: 05/29/03
Posts: 2,459
Loc: dx/dt
Re: Activism... [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8029407 - 02/15/08 10:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
A fun sort of direct action that you can do where you live, regardless of the size of the supportive community around you, is guerilla gardening. Find an abandoned lot and plant a food garden there that you plan on eating from and better yet, make it an open community garden. The food could even go to a 'food not bombs' project. I assume you know what that is, but for the sake of everyone else: link.





I am actually starting this in my community. I am doing an organic gardening internship this summer and when I return I am working with the local land bank on acquiring some land and starting a community garden. This is great for the locals I believe because I live in a very urban community that is reaking of poverty and no adequate shopping within walking distance.


--------------------
better living through chemistry

OVERGROW the government!!

it's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom, ok, thats what it is.


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: Activism... [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8030169 - 02/16/08 05:09 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
.... it's often difficult to see ones own self interest in a manner any broader than the immediate day-to-day struggle to survive in adverse, competitive conditions... or beyond the carrot on the stick. One or both of these heavily influence the vast majority of people in our society. And for those that do see where thier rational self interest really lies, there is the monumental frustration of recognizing the many ways people are manipulated into tacit complicity with the theft of thier own lives. And there is also the fear of repression. No one wants a SWAT team showing up at thier apartment. Its simply easier to sacrafice ones truly rational interests in the face of all the forces that exist to prevent any rupture with the existent.




divide and conquer will work for a long time to come
perhaps forever for man


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Activism... [Re: Lakefingers]
    #8030592 - 02/16/08 09:35 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

i would love to found a business where everybody gets an equal share of the profit. i'm thinking a coffee shop sort of place.




That doesn't seem fair to me. Should the cashier with no risk involvement make the same amount of money as the owner who risked his capital by starting the business?

The only way your example would work is if everyone who works there was an equal partner in the funding of the business.


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OfflineGnosticWarrior
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Re: Activism... [Re: Redstorm]
    #8031336 - 02/16/08 02:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
That doesn't seem fair to me. Should the cashier with no risk involvement make the same amount of money as the owner who risked his capital by starting the business?

The only way your example would work is if everyone who works there was an equal partner in the funding of the business.




This is the common model being used and I do like it. Though, I have ideas of other models that I am not sure would work but could be possible. I believe everyone has something of value to contribute. It is not just capital, for this is just one form of contribution.

It's easy to measure capital, time, or statisical output in valuing a person's contributions but what about the intangibles? How can we measure a person's commitment, dedication, focus, attention, concern, and other desireable factors that we do want from all participants?

If these intangibles are indeed valuable and actually add to the bottom line of profits, how can we measure the appropriate compensation for these contributions? I think the easiest way would be to make all participants equal in ownership and therefore profits. Now sure, this model would turn off certain people from contributing capital, especially if someone else contributes less and gets the same slice of the pie. But, pay only a person a wage with no stake in ownership and he or she only contributes what they feel that wage is worth. They'll give you nothing more. I see business where customer service and volume could be a lot better if those wage earning employees thought as owners in how to improve. But they won't bcs, they don't have an real good incentive to actually boost profits.

Here's a story I read in a book:

In Japan, people say that they can see the shape of a rabbit in the surface of the moon. This comes from a children's story of an old Buddhist priest living high upon a mountain to spend the remainder of his life in prayer. This gentle priest was much loved by all the mountain creatures, who were his only companions. But times were very hard, food was scarce, and the old priest was weak with hunger. When word of this reached the animals, they dug into their meager stores and scoured the mountainside in search of food. At last they gathered outside the mouth of the old priest's cave and laid their gifts before him. The squirrel brought nuts, the bear brought sweet wild berries, and the racoon brought fish, fresh from the icy mountain stream. Everyone had brought a gift of food to the starving priest. Everyone, that is except the rabbit, who was very, very poor. All the animals were astonished, and there was much gossip about the uncharitable rabbit. Unconcerned, the rabbit quietly built a blazing fire, and as the flames began to lick the sky, he turned to the priest and said , "I'm sorry, but I am very poor. I have no food. Please, eat of my meat." And before he could be stopped, the rabbit jumped into the fire. Which animal made the true sacrafice?

I don't see why the story of the rabbit cannot be applied to business. It would be hard to measure the true sacrafices of all the participants. But yeah, the hard part would be to be able to find other people to partner with, in which you would feel confident that they were all giving 100% commitment of themsleves to the business. I would worry if I could do it. It would be easier to just give some money or clock in my time and say that my obligation is done. I think a business could evolve to operate on this level, but it could never start off this way. That's the hard part. Who would sacrafice or risk anything, if the other members weren't doing the same?


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