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Offlineblackegg
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Republicans (The Big Lie)
    #8017486 - 02/13/08 12:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Everyone knows that Democrats are big-government, pork-barrelin'

ass'd, reckless spenders that run us neck deep into debt. And that

Republicans are the fiscally conservative, small-government types.

Right?

Well, check this out...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_by_U.S._presidential_terms

From 1978-2005
Average Increase in Federal Spending
Democrats....... 9.9%
Republicans.....12.1%

Average Federal Debt Increase
Democrats......4.2%
Republicans...36.4%

Average Gross Domestic Product Increase
Democrats.....12.6%
Republicans...10.7%


Republicans have *time and again* outdone Democrats

...in increasing our National Debt!
...in increasing Federal Spending!

So how come these people are considered financially conservative?
Why does everyone in America think the Republicans are good for our economy?

Here's another chart:
http://www.lafn.org/politics/gvdc/Natl_Debt_Chart.html



I honestly don't understand this.
Are the numbers wrong?


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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OfflineApJunkie
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8017507 - 02/13/08 12:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No, it's because human nature is to think you're better than everyone else.
The problem with conservatives is they're manipulative enough to convince everyone else of that, despite it being false.


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Offlinedill705
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: ApJunkie]
    #8017536 - 02/13/08 01:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:thumbup:

Or the people who get convinced are just retarded...


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: dill705]
    #8017623 - 02/13/08 01:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It is a matter of which one sucks worse. I think one of them sucks way more than the other and won't give even the pretense of listening to me.


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8017863 - 02/13/08 02:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

It is a matter of which one sucks worse. I think one of them sucks way more than the other and won't give even the pretense of listening to me.




Why should a political party listen to you???


It's just *interesting* to me that every person I talk to is totally convinced that conservatives are financially responsible.
They're not.
It's the fucking opposite.

So what's the big pull for conservatives once we learn this?
That they're going to get us into horrible religious wars, tap our phone lines and legislate your sex life?

The only thing the Republicans have besides small-government, fiscal responsibility is Christianity and a Large Military.

Cuz obviously that tricked down bullshit ain't workin'.
:smirk:


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8017897 - 02/13/08 02:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You are conflating Conservatives with Republican politicians. They are not the same thing.


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8017922 - 02/13/08 02:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

And yer splittin' hairs.


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8017975 - 02/13/08 02:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Not by a long shot.


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OfflineSyle
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8018070 - 02/13/08 03:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Not by a long shot.




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https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8018430 - 02/13/08 04:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You are conflating Conservatives with Republican politicians. They are not the same thing.




You are not a conservative. It's further worsened by the fact that you play into this false dichotomy of libs vs cons.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: Minstrel]
    #8018465 - 02/13/08 04:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

And I'm sure you can't tell the difference between a line of coke and a line of heroin.


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8018519 - 02/13/08 05:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
And I'm sure you can't tell the difference between a line of coke and a line of heroin.




That's right! I do neither.


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OfflineApJunkie
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8018541 - 02/13/08 05:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You are conflating Conservatives with Republican politicians. They are not the same thing.




I agree with you that they're different, but the major party leaders for both parties would argue that Republicans ARE conservatives, and vice versa. They're not supposed to be, but the claims are there.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: ApJunkie]
    #8018585 - 02/13/08 05:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

They're politicians.


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OfflineApJunkie
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8018612 - 02/13/08 05:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yes webster, thanks for clarifying :smirk:


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8020431 - 02/13/08 11:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You are conflating Conservatives with Republican politicians. They are not the same thing.




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OfflineApJunkie
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: johnm214]
    #8020631 - 02/14/08 12:26 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

If you're talking to me with that quote you're really fucking clueless.


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: ApJunkie]
    #8020883 - 02/14/08 01:44 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

If anyone here doesn't think that Republicans associate themselves with the conservative movement every chance they get ...then I just don't know what to say.

But let's just deal with the facts.

Republicans, whatever you want to call the philosophy they follow...have been worse for the economy than the Democrats the last 30 years while steadfastly maintaining that they are much better than the Democrats.

And many American people (apparently about fifty-one percent!) believe this lie they tell!

And that was the whole point I was trying to make.
Re-read the original post.
It's a call to re-examine the stereotypes people have for the two dominant parties.

Quote:

"Everyone knows that Democrats are big-government, pork-barrelin'
ass'd, reckless spenders that run us neck deep into debt. And that

Republicans are the fiscally conservative, small-government types.

Right?






:heartpump:


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8022646 - 02/14/08 02:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

...


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8022684 - 02/14/08 02:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

blackegg said:
If anyone here doesn't think that Republicans associate themselves with the conservative movement every chance they get ...then I just don't know what to say.




They try to. It doesn't make it true though.
Quote:



But let's just deal with the facts.

Republicans, whatever you want to call the philosophy they follow...have been worse for the economy than the Democrats the last 30 years while steadfastly maintaining that they are much better than the Democrats.

And many American people (apparently about fifty-one percent!) believe this lie they tell!




Why bother calling this nonsense as a fact. It's frankly utter bullshit.
Quote:



And that was the whole point I was trying to make.
Re-read the original post.
It's a call to re-examine the stereotypes people have for the two dominant parties.

Quote:

"Everyone knows that Democrats are big-government, pork-barrelin'
ass'd, reckless spenders that run us neck deep into debt. And that

Republicans are the fiscally conservative, small-government types.

Right?







Which was probably what cost them the Congress in 2006.


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OfflineApJunkie
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8022808 - 02/14/08 03:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Zappa, you can't call bullshit without proper sources. :naughty:


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OfflineCubie
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: Minstrel]
    #8022853 - 02/14/08 03:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

partys dont mean shit anymore its a matter of who you elect and how much power you give them. and i could told you all that shit with out research lol


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: Cubie]
    #8023536 - 02/14/08 05:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You can tell me whatever you want without research, doesn't mean you know what the fuck you're talking about.

Maybe you should research how to spell before you post?

Saying 'partys don't mean shit anymore' is about the stupidest thing I've heard on this forum in a while.
It all matters on who you elect huh?
And how the fuck are you going to even get into the running without the support from a major party?


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8023596 - 02/14/08 05:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ron Paul did pretty well without any major party support


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: johnm214]
    #8023668 - 02/14/08 06:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So, why is he running as a Republican?

I assume he knows more about this than either of us.

And with all due respect johnm214, when has an Independent Party actually had a President in the White House?


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: ApJunkie]
    #8023860 - 02/14/08 06:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ApJunkie said:
Zappa, you can't call bullshit without proper sources. :naughty:




I supplied exactly as many sources as he did.  If he comes up with one I will consider putting some effort in refuting them.  As it stands right now he is just blowing bullshit out of his own, and only his own, ass.


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OfflineApJunkie
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8024411 - 02/14/08 08:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

well, he supplied two links int he first post. you've so far posted none countering him.

So yeah, 0 and 2 are practically the same number


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: ApJunkie]
    #8025800 - 02/15/08 02:45 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:boxerface:
Senility's a bitch.


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8025897 - 02/15/08 04:31 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Everyone knows that Democrats are big-government, pork-barrelin' ass'd, reckless spenders that run us neck deep into debt. And that Republicans are the fiscally conservative, small-government types. Right?




Wrong. This is the line the two party system feeds to the mindless sheep to help convince them that there is a difference between the two parties.

Quote:

You are conflating Conservatives with Republican politicians. They are not the same thing.




Correct. They are very different.

Quote:

And yer splittin' hairs.




No, he isn't. He cut right through all the fat directly to the heart of the matter. The original statement is no more correct than me claiming "All Democrats are Liberal politicians."

Quote:

partys dont mean shit anymore its a matter of who you elect and how much power you give them.




Correct. Same coin, opposite sides. Political parties are being used to keep the sheep busy (and feeling important) while the real work/damage is done out of sight. There are a few individuals in both parties that are decent and have not given into to greed and power, but they are far and few between. Anybody that thinks one party is somehow magically better than the other is sorely mistaken.


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: Seuss]
    #8026010 - 02/15/08 06:42 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It's strange that someone named Seuss would be so unperceptive.
As I've said before, I was hoping these stereotypical portraits of Democrats and Republicans would get people to question common preconceived views.


Re-read the thread!
And remember, hurling as many quotes as possible into your response doesn't mean you're 'informed'.
:wink:


You were right about one thing.
He wasn't splittin' hairs.
I used the wrong colloquialism.
He was confusing the issue.

I'm very aware that the conservative values of small government and small government spending aren't represented by many or any actual Republican Presidents.

That's NOT the issue here.

This thread is about the fact that...

Quote:

Republicans, whatever you want to call the philosophy they follow...have been worse for the economy than the Democrats the last 30 years while steadfastly maintaining that they are much better...








Everything else is red herring!


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8026195 - 02/15/08 08:15 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Sigh.
The budget is voted on by Congress, not established by decree by the Executive Branch. So the question of which political party the president belonged to is meaningless in budgetary terms. The question to be asked is which party held a majority in Congress?

From 1994 to 2006 the Republicans held the strings. From 1978 to 1994 it was the Democrats who held it.

So if you want to compare deficits and national debt and stuff from those two time frames, knock yourself out.




Phred


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Offlinedill705
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: Phred]
    #8026402 - 02/15/08 09:37 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ahh, but it's kinda like right now when he Dems tried to stall funding to war to force a withdrawl...

Within hours the White House held a press conference asking congress to "support the Troops".

It's the same way with budgets, they get modified to a point, but you must remember, they don't change the whole thing. The people did elect the President to run the federal government. Often these people talk about small government, only to promote the social changes they campaigned to make with a new bureaucracy.


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: ApJunkie]
    #8026590 - 02/15/08 10:30 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ApJunkie said:
well, he supplied two links int he first post. you've so far posted none countering him.

So yeah, 0 and 2 are practically the same number




The links he supplied do not prove at all what he stated. Congress drives the budget, not the President. In the second link in the period from 1994 to 2000, a period of sustained a continuous national debt decreases, Republicans held Congress. National debt isn't that important, but in the two links the first shows a decrease under Carter and the second shows an increase under Carter.

Further, policies do not work like light switches, they take years to have effect. Thus there are three things I can base my claim on:

1. The President doesn't drive the budget
2. Conflicting links
3. Policy lag

There are also exigent circumstances. Such as the fact that BJ Clinton's entire term of office was essentially a free ride on Republicans and he failed miserably in what he was actually supposed to be doing, i.e. securing the people. Bush got left holding that bag because of Clinton's failure. So, I say bullshit.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8027217 - 02/15/08 01:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

failed miserably in what he was actually supposed to be doing, i.e. securing the people.

yeah I really felt insecure then but now with DW Bush I feel so fucking secure it's not funny.:thumbup: Great observation.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: Phred]
    #8027271 - 02/15/08 01:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Sigh.
The budget is voted on by Congress, not established by decree by the Executive Branch. So the question of which political party the president belonged to is meaningless in budgetary terms. The question to be asked is which party held a majority in Congress?

From 1994 to 2006 the Republicans held the strings. From 1978 to 1994 it was the Democrats who held it.





Ok, the next time a conservative tries to tell me that it is President Clinton's policies that have lead to the current budget deficit, I will tell them to come talk to you and you can straighten them out and explain that the blame should be placed on the Republican Congress.

If only I could go back in time to the 90s when conservatives were saying that the economic boom was not a result of the Clinton administration, but were actually just the long term effects of Reagan's policies. To which I could point to the Democratic congress of the 80s.

I jest. It is more complicated than all of that, of course. But I'm feeling bitchy today.


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Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
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OfflinePhred
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8027411 - 02/15/08 01:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Ok, the next time a conservative tries to tell me that it is President Clinton's policies that have lead to the current budget deficit, I will tell them to come talk to you and you can straighten them out and explain that the blame should be placed on the Republican Congress.




I will gladly do so.




Phred


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: Icelander]
    #8027553 - 02/15/08 02:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
failed miserably in what he was actually supposed to be doing, i.e. securing the people.

yeah I really felt insecure then but now with DW Bush I feel so fucking secure it's not funny.:thumbup: Great observation.




Your feelings about your security are utterly unrelated to what your actual security is.  It is not a bad thing to realize that there are assholes out there and, ya know, actually take steps to stop them.  It's better than putting your head up your ass and ignoring them, like Clinton did.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8027888 - 02/15/08 03:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Or even better pretending we have enemies here and there so we can get out there and take control of some resources and support the ol war economy.

It seems evident to me thats what has happened here. Unless you want to admit that Bush is a complete incompetent retard instead of just dishonest.

Not only are the assholes "out there", there's plenty of them "in here" too. There the really scary ones because they have all the access to the morons who support them.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (02/15/08 03:54 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: Icelander]
    #8028217 - 02/15/08 05:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yep there's assholes here too. Ignoring or feeling like there are none won't do anything to stop them.


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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8028403 - 02/15/08 05:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Average Federal Debt Increase
Democratic Pres......4.2%
Republican Pres.....36.4%


That's NINE TIMES what the democrats averaged!
Sorry but if you can't see that nine times over 30 years is more than just chance, you're in some kind of narcotic haze!
There's definitely a pattern here.


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8028557 - 02/15/08 06:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Sigh
Quote:

 

Quote:



ApJunkie said:
Zappa, you can't call bullshit without proper sources. 







I supplied exactly as many sources as he did





Wrong.
You supplied zero sources.



Now you're admitting that I did supply sources...but...
Quote:

The links he supplied do not prove at all what he stated.




Did you even look at the links? They prove my point and then some!

Plus, you try to bury your admission of guilt in a paragraph that's completely off topic.

"Sigh."
I guess I shouldn't expect a coherent dialog from a guy who insults people by saying they " wouldn't know the difference between a line of heroin and a line of coke"
:smirk:


But is this the common level of dialectics you usually find here at the Shroomery?
*Really*?

Who moderates these boards?
Ohhh...that's right.
Phred.
:rolleyes:


Some of you conservative guys who like to run these boards are lucky I'm just some punk kid and this is only a fuckin Mushroom Website or you'd be having your asses handed to you regularly.

:laugh:




--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


Edited by blackegg (02/16/08 08:14 AM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8028576 - 02/15/08 06:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

what a prick


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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: johnm214]
    #8028647 - 02/15/08 06:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Are you addressing me?


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8029713 - 02/15/08 11:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think he's adressing you, but he may be referencing you.


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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: ApJunkie]
    #8029843 - 02/16/08 12:48 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It's nice to view a thread where people get along for once.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: zorbman]
    #8030450 - 02/16/08 08:39 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Meh, I stand by my words.

These forums are *filled* with passive aggressive nonsense, people using foul language in place of reason, all manner of random side tracks instead of sticking to the point, little cliques ganging up on outsiders, and Phred( a moderator) getting the ball of dung rolling on many occasions (or at least helping it along),:shrug:this wouldn't fly in other political sites.

And so someone calls me a 'prick for stating the obvious...
...just one more case of using foul language in place of debate to get your point across, which is the norm here I guess.

But this may all be me pissing in the wind as I'm not even sure who's being addressed or referenced or whatever-you-want-to-call-it. That's the beauty of being passive aggressive ...you don't have to make sense and you can always deny what's happening.

I mean  I am a prick  but I think my points are still valid.:smirk:


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8030490 - 02/16/08 08:57 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

One of the nice things about The Shroomery is that the administration allows its forum moderators to post in the forums they moderate, as long as they follow the site rules and forum rules while doing so.

Try to imagine how saddened I feel to be told my view of the world differs from your own.




Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8030509 - 02/16/08 09:06 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I mean I am a prick but I think my points are still valid.




But that's the thing. Your points aren't valid. As has been pointed out already by the two posters in the thread who actually understand how the US government works, noting how large the deficit was compared to who was occupying the Oval Office at the time is like noting how large the deficit was compared to how much fizzy water Coca Cola sold at the time.

Congress decides how much gets spent, not the President. If you want to do a year by year deficit comparison between Democrat-controlled Congress and Republican-controlled Congress, be my guest. But the reason no one is getting all excited about your deficit "revelations" is that they're meaningless, not that there's some kind of conspiracy to be mean to you or roll dung onto your head.




Phred


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8030525 - 02/16/08 09:11 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

blackegg said:
Sigh
Quote:

 

Quote:



ApJunkie said:
Zappa, you can't call bullshit without proper sources. 







I supplied exactly as many sources as he did





Wrong.
You supplied zero sources.



Now you're admitting that I did supply sources...but...
Quote:

The links he supplied do not prove at all what he stated.







You didn't supply any sources to support what I called bullshit, which was this:

Quote:

Republicans, whatever you want to call the philosophy they follow...have been worse for the economy than the Democrats the last 30 years while steadfastly maintaining that they are much better than the Democrats.




The information you posted referenced only Republican presidents, who most of the time had Democratic Congresses.  Your conclusion is not even addressed by your links, so you presented no links to support your conclusion.  Hence equal linkage on what I called bullshit.
Quote:




Did you even look at the links? They prove my point and then some!

Plus, you try to bury your admission of guilt in a paragraph that's completely off topic.

"Sigh."
I guess I shouldn't expect a coherent dialog from a guy who insults people by saying they " wouldn't know the difference between a line of heroin and a line of coke"
:smirk:




If you can't tell the differences among Democrats, Republicans and Conservatives you are extraordinarily myopic.  Hence I suggest you stay away from similar looking powdered drugs.
Quote:




But is this the common level of dialectics you usually find here at the Shroomery?
*Really*?

Who moderates these boards?
Ohhh...that's right.
Phred.
:rolleyes:


Some of you conservative guys who like to run these boards are lucky I'm just some punk kid and this is only a fuckin Mushroom Website or you'd be having your asses handed to you regularly.

:laugh:




What a tough guy.  I tremble at your wit and wisdom.  "Common level of dialectics"?  You mighty reconsider your overinflated sense of intellect in light of the fact that your conclusion is not even addressed by your evidence.  Unless you think the Presidency is equal to a dictatorship.  In which case you are even more ridiculous than I initially thought, which was quite ridiculous indeed.


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8030651 - 02/16/08 09:58 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You see what I'm saying?
One good point surrounded by a bunch of bullshit.

Zappa,I don't even have time to deal with all your logical and sundry fallacies.


Phred

And as I've said...a 9x increase over 30 years is more than luck.



Quote:

Try to imagine how saddened I feel to be told my view of the world differs from your own.





Man, again with the off topic theatrics?!


So here we are...twaddle Dee-Dee...going round and round the same simple issue ...it only takes 3 pages of posts to get to the one valid counter-point.
Which is:
Whether the links and stats I provided in *my first* post are statistically relevant. Whether one average 9x higher than another average (over thirty years)is just luck.


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8030653 - 02/16/08 10:00 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Yep there's assholes here too. Ignoring or feeling like there are none won't do anything to stop them.




I never said there are none. We create them by the truck load by mucking about in other countries business; something we would never tolorate here.

I'm saying Bush's policies are making it a lot more dangerous for me and especially in my own country. Fuck that shit.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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OfflinePhred
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8030767 - 02/16/08 10:47 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

blackegg writes:

Quote:

Man, again with the off topic theatrics?!




Can we say irony?

Quote:

So here we are...twaddle Dee-Dee...going round and round the same simple issue ...it only takes 3 pages of posts to get to the one valid counter-point.
Which is:
Whether the links and stats I provided in *my first* post are statistically relevant. Whether one average 9x higher than another average (over thirty years)is just luck.




It didn't take three pages. It took a page and a half. That's when I made my first post pointing out the obvious -- that it is not the president who controls the government's purse strings, but Congress. Blaming the president -- Democrat or Conservative, makes no difference -- for a budget deficit is like blaming the president for the price per barrel of oil OPEC chooses to charge in a given year.

Even the so-called "Bush tax cuts" which have stimulated the economy, increased tax revenue, and lowered deficits since they were passed, don't bring any credit to Bush. It wasn't Bush who wrote those tax cuts into the legislation and voted to pass the resulting changes. It was Congress who did that.

It's not that your bolded and capitalized and exclamation marked observations on deficits and presidents are statistically significant or statisically insignificant, it is that they are not meaningful. They have about as much meaning as me charting the relationship between the price of pistachios and the ratio of black to white musical artists winning MTV awards in a given year.



Phred


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8030820 - 02/16/08 11:05 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Your nonsense does not suffer statistical irrelevance. It suffers from logical irrelevance in that the Presidency is not a dictatorship. Further, the National debt is not a perfect descriptor of economic health.

Let's start with Reagan's first term as up until then the debt change was flat after being quite negative due to paying off the WW2 and Korea debt. At that point we start to see the increases.

81-85Reagan / increase 11.3% Party of Congress Dem
85-89Reagan / increase 9.2% Party of Congress 85-87 Dem;87-89 Split
89-93Bush41 / increase 15.1% Party of Congress Split
93-97Clinton / increase -0.6 Party of Congress 93-95 Split;95-97 Rep
97-01Clinton / increase -8.2 Party of Congress Rep
01-05Bush43 / increase 6.9 Party of Congress Rep

After that we have a projection so I won't use it. It isn't data. See?

In addition, you seem to have a fixation on the National debt as a perfect descriptor of economic health. This is nonsense. As an example of just how nonsensical it is, look at the 70s when the National debt declined while the economy was in terrible shape (100% Dem controlled Congress).

Quote:

The 1970s was perhaps the worst decade of Western and American economic performance since the Great Depression.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970s#Economy

Now, for a refresher, this is what you said that I described as bullshit:

Quote:

But let's just deal with the facts.

Republicans, whatever you want to call the philosophy they follow...have been worse for the economy than the Democrats the last 30 years while steadfastly maintaining that they are much better than the Democrats.

And many American people (apparently about fifty-one percent!) believe this lie they tell!




No mention of Presidents or National debt, just parties and the economy.

Enough, you have had your ass handed to you. Thank me for letting you have it back before I was really done with it


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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8030943 - 02/16/08 11:43 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks.
You truly are a wise and intellegent person.
You too Phred.
You guys rock!
:thumbup:


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8033224 - 02/16/08 11:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It only took you three pages of flaming to get to the point.

But I see now that you were right.

Thanks for the correction!
:heart:
I love you!


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8033862 - 02/17/08 07:27 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

t only took you three pages of flaming to get to the point.




No, the point was gotten to a page and a half into the thread, when it was pointed out (by me) that it is Congress who holds the purse strings, not the president.



Phred


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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: Phred]
    #8034542 - 02/17/08 12:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I was speaking mainly to zappaisgod.

But thanks Phred.

I only wish you would've swooped in a little earlier (30 posts?) to show me the error of my ways.
Before zappa got my dander up... and without the ...what did you call it? "Irony"?


But,I guess you're doing your best.
:shrug:

Blackegg.


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8036679 - 02/18/08 05:16 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The topic you guys were so    thoroughly      schooling me about above seems a bit more complicated after reading this...

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-5034684/Presidential-signaling-in-a-market.html

So the president does have some influence... but not much??

I thought the congress held the purse strings and any talk of the president's party was meaningless?


It's only half an article and you are way  ...WAY smarter than me about this whole "politics" thing...

{I'm sometimes tempted to get a Bachelors in Political Science before even posting anything here... but what the hell, at least I'M learning something.}

...so, if you have the time, please hand me the rest of my ass would you?

:heartpump:


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8036921 - 02/18/08 07:57 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

So the president does have some influence... but not much??




Exactly. What a president says in his speeches does have some effect on various segments of the economy, true. But it has no effect on the size of the budget Congress approves (or doesn't approve). Since deficits and national debt are the direct result of how much money the US government spends in a year (determined by how large the budget is that year) the correlation you provided between deficit/debt and party affiliation of president is meaningless. If you had provided a correlation between say presidents and the consumer confidence index, or presidents and stock market index, different story.


Quote:

I thought the congress held the purse strings and any talk of the president's party was meaningless?




In relation to government deficit and national debt, it is meaningless.




Phred


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8036941 - 02/18/08 08:05 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Here's the other half. From your own link (or hand as it were):

Quote:

Despite high public expectations about presidential leadership and economic prosperity, political scientists do not resoundingly endorse presidential influence over monetary policy, fiscal policy, or the business cycle. Beck (1987) and Grier (1989) provide conflicting accounts of the propensity for presidential influence over a purported monetary cycle (see Williams 1990), while Morris (2001) maintains that presidents have some leverage over the Federal Reserve Board when Congress is part of the analysis. The existence of partisan economic cycles in macroeconomic policy and the probability of an electoral cycle in fiscal policy suggest some influence over the economy (see Alesina and Roubini with Cohen 1997; Hibbs 1977; Keech 1995). Yet the president's influence over fiscal policy is limited because he must deal with Congress (Bond and Fleisher 1990) and most budgetary money is already allocated to entitlements and deficit-related spending cuts.




The President cannot dictate economic policy. No matter what annapurna says. But he does certainly have some influence, as does the message to Congress from the people when they elect a President. They want to keep their jobs, after all.

This place could easily turn into a socialist wankfest if not for a few of us. Fortunately for the Shroomery, there is a small handful that aren't knee jerk liberals. We are mean and we are strong. It is, after all, for your own good


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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: Phred]
    #8036989 - 02/18/08 08:29 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

When does congress approve the budget and could they be guilted into approving a larger one for...say...'the troops'? or 'the security of America'?
I've read that if the people are firmly behind the president it's very hard for congress to say no to him. Is this true?

Also, I wonder why the presidential nominees are discussing the economy so much during debates if they have so little say over how much is approved!
Are they just trying to avoid appearing clueless and powerless?

And, to make it all that much more confusing, at least for me,
I just read this:
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2006/05/22/121437.php


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8037213 - 02/18/08 09:38 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

blackegg said:
When does congress approve the budget and could they be guilted into approving a larger one for...say...'the troops'? or 'the security of America'?
I've read that if the people are firmly behind the president it's very hard for congress to say no to him. Is this true?




Of course. Now, what have the margins of victory been in the last few elections? I think gnat's ass is a good description. Guilt? From those whores? Nah.
Quote:



Also, I wonder why the presidential nominees are discussing the economy so much during debates if they have so little say over how much is approved!
Are they just trying to avoid appearing clueless and powerless?




No, it's because they know the people are clueless. The people are desperate to hear certainties no matter what their validity is. Children like that.
Quote:



And, to make it all that much more confusing, at least for me,
I just read this:
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2006/05/22/121437.php




I don't get it. Something about the Army of God?


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8037447 - 02/18/08 11:08 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

a small handful that aren't knee jerk liberals

Thanks for the acknowledgement. :thumbup: And proud of it. But I even go further and am not a knee jerk conservative either. I think I am one of the few that can handle standing on their own. You should think about trying it sometime.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8038017 - 02/18/08 01:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:



Also, I wonder why the presidential nominees are discussing the economy so much during debates if they have so little say over how much is approved!
Are they just trying to avoid appearing clueless and powerless?




No, it's because they know the people are clueless. The people are desperate to hear certainties no matter what their validity is. Children like that.
Quote:











yep yep


While the talk of universal healthcare and a solid plan would give congress some place to start, and provide a given proposal national exposure, its just a wishlist.

Likewise w/ the subprime mortgages.... how is that the president's problem again? (how is it even a problem to begine with, other than those lenders pushing people into worse deals then they qualified for with deception)


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Offlineblackegg
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Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 1,021
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: johnm214]
    #8039544 - 02/18/08 07:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

And, to make it all that much more confusing, at least for me,
I just read this:
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2006/05/22/121437.php


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I don't get it. Something about the Army of God?




Yeah, sorry, that last link was supposed to be a study saying consumer confidence was not an accurate predictor of people actually buying stuff ...or something.

But you have to admit...it was confusing, right?


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8039596 - 02/18/08 07:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So...when does congress approve the budget?

And you don't think those people who listen to the president's speeches have influence over their elected officials?


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Republicans (The Big Lie) [Re: blackegg]
    #8039624 - 02/18/08 07:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I dunno exactly when the budget deal gets done every year. And the Congress critters are beholden more to their local voters than say a national president. Those are judgments they all make. For instance Nancy Pelosi, from San Fran, would get much more home support for sticking it up ANY Republican's ass regardless of how many votes he won by.


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