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InvisiblePeterthinks
(Caulking) gun for hire


Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 2,379
multispore inocculation or agar isolation?
    #8015007 - 02/12/08 08:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Is it the same result in the end?

Is it more advantageous to isolate 20 or 30 strains from a spore print in agar plates and fruit them all individually or is it better to do a multi spore fruiting and isolate (clone and fruit) the most promising 20 or 30 fruit bodies?

The object of the whole exercise being to find a consistent mushroom with a desirable characteristic....kinda like breeding wild dogs into pure breeds.

:jester:


--------------------
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Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
NEWB NEWBIE NEWCOMER IGNORANT? QUESTIONS?
Click HERE HERE HERE HERE For detailed instructions with pictures on how to grow mushrooms. There is a lot of info on the Shroomery and this is what you need to know.


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InvisiblePeterthinks
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Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 2,379
Re: multispore inocculation or agar isolation? [Re: Peterthinks]
    #8032985 - 02/16/08 10:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

A bump and a call to RR
:jester:


--------------------
Give a man a fire and he will be warm for the rest of the night.
Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
NEWB NEWBIE NEWCOMER IGNORANT? QUESTIONS?
Click HERE HERE HERE HERE For detailed instructions with pictures on how to grow mushrooms. There is a lot of info on the Shroomery and this is what you need to know.


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Invisiblethedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
Re: multispore inocculation or agar isolation? [Re: Peterthinks]
    #8033018 - 02/16/08 10:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not the rabbit, but I'll give it a shot, just the same. If you isolate from the print on agar, all you know is that you are getting rhizomorphic growth. However, if you take a clone sample of a fruit that had other desirable characteristics ( i.e. potency, growth clusters, size, or whatever ) and then put that to agar, you could isolate the best rhizos and get the best of both worlds. That, I would think would be the difference.

Also, I think it depends on where you want to spend your time. When you work the print you don't know what it is you are isolating out. You will need to fruit and then clone to get what you want, anyway. On the other hand, if you go MS you may not find what you're looking for in those fruits, and you may have to start over.

Anyway, I have no idea what I'm talking about. Personally, I would fruit and then begin isolating, because at least then you have an idea of what you're working with. Good Luck.


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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.


Edited by thedefone (02/16/08 10:35 PM)


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InvisibleFooMan
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Re: multispore inocculation or agar isolation? [Re: Peterthinks]
    #8033080 - 02/16/08 10:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Personally, I would clone and fruit. Mainly because there is no guarantee that your agar isolates will even be fruiting strains. Cloning also shows you the phenotype of the strain ahead of time and allows you to find the qualities you like. From the cloned tissue(s) you can find the fastest colonizer. If that's one of the traits you seek.


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InvisibleFooMan
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Re: multispore inocculation or agar isolation? [Re: thedefone]
    #8033082 - 02/16/08 11:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

thedefone said:
I'm not the rabbit, but I'll give it a shot, just the same.  If you isolate from the print on agar, all you know is that you are getting rhizomorphic growth.  However, if you take a clone sample of a fruit that had other desirable characteristics ( i.e. potency, growth clusters, size, or whatever ) and then put that to agar, you could isolate the best rhizos and get the best of both worlds.  That, I would think would be the difference.

Also, I think it depends on where you want to spend your time.  When you work the print you don't know what it is you are isolating out.  You will need to fruit and then clone to get what you want, anyway.  On the other hand, if you go MS you may not find what you're looking for in those fruits, and you may have to start over. 

Anyway, I have no idea what I'm talking about.  Personally, I would fruit and then begin isolating, because at least then you have an idea of what you're working with. Good Luck.




Beat me to it :smirk: That's what happens when you open a post, then walk away for a while without refreshing.


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InvisiblePeterthinks
(Caulking) gun for hire


Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 2,379
Re: multispore inocculation or agar isolation? [Re: thedefone]
    #8033089 - 02/16/08 11:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah that makes sense, you avoid the vegetative (non fruiters) if you go multi spore inoculation and clone fruits.
I can see that side of it and that is how I was leaning but I wanted to know if there was a reason I should go straight to agar and isolate sectors to fruit.
Other than getting in some "mad scientist" time doing agar stuff I don't see an advantage to going
print-agar-isolate sectors-fruit-clone
as opposed to
print-multi spore inoculation-fruit-select nice fruits-clone.
:jester:


--------------------
Give a man a fire and he will be warm for the rest of the night.
Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
NEWB NEWBIE NEWCOMER IGNORANT? QUESTIONS?
Click HERE HERE HERE HERE For detailed instructions with pictures on how to grow mushrooms. There is a lot of info on the Shroomery and this is what you need to know.


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InvisibleFooMan
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Re: multispore inocculation or agar isolation? [Re: Peterthinks]
    #8033171 - 02/16/08 11:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

For me, agar work isn't really neccessary unless I'm trying to isolate myc from contams on wild or "iffy" prints. When I acquire spores from a reputable trader or vendor, it's just much easier to fruit it out from MS and pick the ideal fruits for cloning.


--------------------

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Invisibleauweia
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Re: multispore inocculation or agar isolation? [Re: FooMan]
    #8033504 - 02/17/08 01:38 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

FooManShroom said:
For me, agar work isn't really neccessary unless I'm trying to isolate myc from contams on wild or "iffy" prints. When I acquire spores from a reputable trader or vendor, it's just much easier to fruit it out from MS and pick the ideal fruits for cloning.




the photo you are using in your signature is copyrighted

http://www.flickr.com/photos/14930672@N04/2136217539/in/set-72157603547149199/

please use something else


Edited by auweia (02/17/08 01:40 AM)


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InvisibleFooMan
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Re: multispore inocculation or agar isolation? [Re: auweia]
    #8033532 - 02/17/08 01:57 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

auweia said:
Quote:

FooManShroom said:
For me, agar work isn't really neccessary unless I'm trying to isolate myc from contams on wild or "iffy" prints. When I acquire spores from a reputable trader or vendor, it's just much easier to fruit it out from MS and pick the ideal fruits for cloning.




the photo you are using in your signature is copyrighted

http://www.flickr.com/photos/14930672@N04/2136217539/in/set-72157603547149199/

please use something else




My picture is different. We obviously took a picture of the same thing at different angles. No copyright problems here.


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Quick WBS Prep


Edited by FooMan (02/17/08 02:23 AM)


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Invisibleauweia
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Re: multispore inocculation or agar isolation? [Re: FooMan]
    #8033983 - 02/17/08 08:36 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

FooManShroom said:
Personally, I would clone and fruit. Mainly because there is no guarantee that your agar isolates will even be fruiting strains. Cloning also shows you the phenotype of the strain ahead of time and allows you to find the qualities you like. From the cloned tissue(s) you can find the fastest colonizer. If that's one of the traits you seek.




Looks like you clone photos too

You would be believable and maybe have credibilty if you didn't take credit for other peoples work



image is simply flipped from my original



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Invisibleauweia
mountain biking
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Posts: 2,725
Re: multispore inocculation or agar isolation? [Re: FooMan]
    #8033999 - 02/17/08 08:47 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

FooManShroom said:
Quote:

auweia said:
Quote:

FooManShroom said:
For me, agar work isn't really neccessary unless I'm trying to isolate myc from contams on wild or "iffy" prints. When I acquire spores from a reputable trader or vendor, it's just much easier to fruit it out from MS and pick the ideal fruits for cloning.




the photo you are using in your signature is copyrighted

http://www.flickr.com/photos/14930672@N04/2136217539/in/set-72157603547149199/

please use something else




My picture is different. We obviously took a picture of the same thing at different angles. No copyright problems here.




Yeah, nice job of rotating my photo





Edited by auweia (02/17/08 08:53 AM)


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Invisiblenorml840 Happy Birthday!
sex toy guru
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Registered: 10/19/07
Posts: 3,170
Loc: lost
Re: multispore inocculation or agar isolation? [Re: auweia]
    #8034018 - 02/17/08 09:02 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

busted


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InvisibleWolfgang
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Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 8,370
Re: multispore inocculation or agar isolation? [Re: auweia]
    #8034022 - 02/17/08 09:07 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

ahhhh shit :lol:


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InvisibleFooMan
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Re: multispore inocculation or agar isolation? [Re: auweia]
    #8034282 - 02/17/08 11:08 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I like how you photoshopped YOUR picture into that screen shot, but that doesn't change the fact that the picture in my sig is different. Credibility? I have plenty of my own pics to back up "my own work". Check out the Koh Samui Super on Ralphsters website.

More:






This is my "work", not a picture of nature that I'm trying to copyright. Feel free to use any of my photos in your signature, in your flickr account, on your wall, whatever. You can be rest assured that I won't be crying about a "copyright". Maybe if you quit crying about it, Tahoe and myself would take the pics down. Instead, you continue to cry like a little bitch about some dumb fucking picture. Get over it already :cryariver:


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Invisibleauweia
mountain biking
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Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 2,725
Re: multispore inocculation or agar isolation? [Re: FooMan]
    #8034342 - 02/17/08 11:33 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

please remove my photo from you signature



image is simply flipped from my original





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Invisiblethedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
Re: multispore inocculation or agar isolation? [Re: auweia]
    #8035415 - 02/17/08 08:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Wow, this is gay. Holy Fuck.


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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.


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Offlinexaxphaanes
Mycologist
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Registered: 08/08/05
Posts: 2,988
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: multispore inocculation or agar isolation? [Re: thedefone]
    #8036165 - 02/17/08 11:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

lol these posts about him bitching are hilarious and i must join in lol.


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"Anything i say is fictional"
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OfflineMuShQuEsT
Night Wanderer
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Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 68
Loc: North Western Oregon
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Re: multispore inocculation or agar isolation? [Re: xaxphaanes]
    #8036391 - 02/18/08 01:15 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Dude, what the hell is going on. I thought that was tahoe. Why do they have the exact same sig and pic?

and seriously dude what the hells your problem?


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Fry: But existing is basically all I do!
-Futurama "Roswell that ends well"


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OfflineDigital Reality
Strangers in the dark
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Registered: 05/01/07
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Re: multispore inoculation or agar isolation? [Re: xaxphaanes] * 1
    #8036404 - 02/18/08 01:21 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

To get back on topic and away from these identity problems. The original question about there being an advantage to starting form MS as opposed to clone tissue on agar. Yes there is. From reading through post from RR and a few other people i feel to be creditable the biggest diff between MS agar isolated out and clone tissue on agar isolated out is clone tissue is already tainted so to speak.

The way i understand it is that when you first start out and shoot up a jar or agar or anything with MS you have a bunch of sub strains of the strain your using. Some weak, some strong, some fruiter's, some non fruiter's. What happens as these individual spores germinate and grow is they eventually meet each other. I believe the scientific word for this is anastomosis. Basically it means the joining of two organs or spaces that normally are not connected.

So basically to make this an example, just say out of the two spores that started to germinate, one was a strong spore that would fruit, be potent, and anything else you would want, while the other spore was a piece of crap that eats your substrate but never fruits. Well those two join together and create another sub strain so to speak. Still the same strain but just a mix of the two sub strains. So now you have a sub strain that is stronger than the non fruiter but inferior to the "all American spore" so to speak. This process happens over and over again until your substrain is completely colonized and then finally fruits (or doesn't) depending on the luck of the spores you shot the jar up with. So what your left with is a mediocre substrate with combined genetics from both your strong and weak spores. That substrate then produces a fruit. Some fruits bigger and faster growing than others dude to the fact that maybe the one side had a stronger diversity of spores while the other side had a flop.

So now you move on with cloning and take a sample from this fruit that was produced. The obvious choice would be the biggest and fastest growing fruit but still no matter how great it looks compared to the others that grew it is still a watered down version of some of the original spores that germinated and the fruit it could have produced if given the change to colonize the entire substrate on its own.

So your entire benefit at the cost of a shit ton of petri dishes is finding that alpha spore that will eventually if isolated out and then grown on grain or a pf jar produce an entire flush of mushrooms with that amazing characteristic your looking for. It just ends up being more work, but once you find that spore and isolate it every grow after that is golden since you should still have your master to pull myc from for every grow after.

That my friend is the promise that is driving me at the moment to move to agar and find that alpha spore that will make the work worth it.

I'm still new at this topic so if there is anything ive messed up please feel free to correct me, but as far as i have read this is the general idea i got from my readings.

Keith


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Offlinemescalinaz
TheCapitator

Registered: 12/14/07
Posts: 117
Loc: NorthWeastFromTheEast
Last seen: 5 years, 9 months
Re: multispore inoculation or agar isolation? [Re: Digital Reality]
    #8037315 - 02/18/08 10:27 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

sorry for it being out of topic but:
lol at auweia... man havent you downloaded anything over the internet that was copyrighted?? why didnt you put water-mark on your pictures with your nick on it like most of the peepz do who are afraid of their pictures being posted somewhere else. it's just lame and radiculous running behind these folks and going into discussion over and over again. you posted that pic on internet = its not yours anymore that's the law all over the net... just ask paris hilton hahaha


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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.


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