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OfflineI Like Alkaloids
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Need help with PA system!
    #8004852 - 02/10/08 02:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I have absolutely no experience setting up a PA system, so I need some help from anybody who does. As simple as they seem, I don't want to purchase a cheap PA package. I would rather invest my funds into higher quality products that will last a long time. I already know that I'm retarded, and this is some pretty simple shit, so please omit such comments from your posts. The Shroomery may not be the best place for technical advice, but I have the feeling that this community is quicker and more helpful than e-mailing a bunch of manufacturers...
:cool:

- I'm looking to purchase 3 monitors, and a small powered mixer to
  run them.

- EACH monitor has 150W RMS and 300W peak.

Question 1) Do I need a powered mixer with 300W output to run all 3
            monitors?

- I'm also looking to purchase two 2X15" 2-way speaker cabinets, and
  an amp to power them. 
 
- EACH cabinet has a 700W program and 1400W peak.

Question 2) Do I need an amp that provides 700W to run both cabinets?

Thanks for any help! :cool:

Hopefully our band will be rolling through your town as soon as I figure this out!  :cool:


--------------------
A lot of people here are assholes, but so am I...

:cool:


Edited by I Like Alkaloids (02/10/08 02:20 PM)


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OfflineI Like Alkaloids
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Re: Need help with PA system! [Re: I Like Alkaloids]
    #8005018 - 02/10/08 03:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I Like Alkaloids said:
I have the feeling that this community is quicker and more helpful than e-mailing a bunch of manufacturers...





Yeah right!  :cool:

To answer my own questions and waste more room on the board:

The powered mixer for the 3 monitors will need to supply AT LEAST 900 watts. The amp will need to supply AT LEAST 2800 watts.

Sorry for the waste of time  :cool:


--------------------
A lot of people here are assholes, but so am I...

:cool:


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Invisibletak
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Re: Need help with PA system! [Re: I Like Alkaloids]
    #8005260 - 02/10/08 04:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not quite sure you are going to need atleast 2800 watts....that is peak power on both speakers.

But it never hurts to have extra headroom...

You also don't want to be running your amp at full blast all the time, if you have the means it would be wiser to run atleast two amps, and a minimum below 75% power. You dont want your only amp that is maxed out to blow and leave you fucked.

Same goes with your mixer, powered mixers are great, but what happens when you have a problem? I would personally go with amps for the monitors as well, but that is personal preference.

I dunno, i am by far no expert, and learning every day. But yeah it would be nice to know what you decide to go with, it interests me alot.


peace


--------------------
The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.


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OfflineI Like Alkaloids
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Re: Need help with PA system! [Re: tak]
    #8008775 - 02/11/08 01:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

root-ninja-tak said:
But it never hurts to have extra headroom...




Yeah, that's what some jackass (who probably wanted me to spend $1,700  on an amp) told me from musician's friend! If I'm going to invest a lot of money into this, I would rather be safe than sorry. However, at the moment I cannot afford a single amp that is capable of providing 2800 watts of power to both of the cabinets. This shit is expensive!

Would it be possible for me to purchase 2 smaller amps (~1400 watts each) to run each cabinet? If so, I believe that is what I'll do!

If I use an amp to power my monitors, I'll still need a mixer (unpowered), correct?

Thanks for your input ninja.  :cool:


Edited by I Like Alkaloids (02/11/08 01:20 PM)


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Invisibletak
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Re: Need help with PA system! [Re: I Like Alkaloids]
    #8009667 - 02/11/08 05:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yeah definately get two amps, I dont think you would need more than 1,000w each anyways, they run at only 700watts, that 1400 is peak power and it would be an extra level of safety to ensure you don't blow your speakers...and by all means you wouldnt be underpowering them.

im pretty sure ive seen budget amps at like 800w mono for under $300 at sweetwater.com and probably some even cheaper ones.

but remember you get what you pay for.


--------------------
The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.


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InvisibleGoodbyeOrb
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Re: Need help with PA system! [Re: I Like Alkaloids]
    #8010089 - 02/11/08 06:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not reading the other responses but, in the event no one has already said this, stick to buying a combo pack from a local music shop or manufacturer. Many places offer these based on your needs, so just find the one that fits your needs and budget. Search on the internet, mad places that do this, or PM me and I can give you a couple sites. Three reasons for this:

1) Everything is already matched, and you know that you will have enough power to run the monitors. Alternately, many retail stores will have demo equipment sent up so that you can go in and test and see what you like.

2) You generally save money this way, especially if you do a good job of shopping around. Music companies are ALWAYS having sales, so do some diligence, and you'll make out in the end.

3) It's all plug and play. You buy, it comes with instructions on where to plug everything in, and you are good to plug in and go.

As a side note, if you truly are ignorant on this topic, then find a friend that has been producing a garage band or playing a guitar for at least 5 years. Carry them along to the store with you, they'll know enough about it to keep you busy.

Alternately, check e-bay and craigslist. Good deals, and also prepackaged equipment. Downsides are that you want to make sure everything works though before you drop the dough.


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Re: Need help with PA system! [Re: I Like Alkaloids]
    #8011500 - 02/12/08 12:15 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

http://www.pssl.com/PA-Systems--Packages

you could look through some of the stuff here
check some specs
maybe answer some of your questions


--------------------
shroomery.
not even once.



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Re: Need help with PA system! [Re: I Like Alkaloids]
    #8011962 - 02/12/08 03:08 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Make sure the ohm rating on the amp matches your speakers. :thumbup:


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Offlinedarnold
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Re: Need help with PA system! [Re: I Like Alkaloids]
    #8011976 - 02/12/08 03:29 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Good advice around here but i thought i would add in some professional advice.

If you want an efficient system that is good now and also good later it would be a good idea to build something that can be easily added too or upgrading. This means keeping things non proprietary. With powered mixers you have to replace the whole unit to upgrade anything at all and the amplification and flexibility with powered mixers are a hassle in my opinion. I dont know how your budget is but i also recommend buying things used. I have gone through several pieces of gear that i have bought brand new, lost money immediately from new to used depreciation, and then sold them 3 years later in near perfect condition. Audio gear does not do much depreciating after that new to used one. So if you buy used gear that is in good quality condition from the beginning theres a good chance you could sell it for near the same price you bought it 2 or 3 years down the road when your read to upgrade.

So youll need a non amplified mixer. If your looking at the mackie line and looking for used you could easily go with a Mackie 1604 VLZ Pro for a really good price. They are great starter boards in my opinion and there are plenty around to find them for good prices. If you do a little more searching you could possibly even find a good Mackie 24x8bus (many steps up from a 1604 VLZ) for around $300 which is a complete steal. If you need help looking for or comparing mixers let me know and i can help you with your options.

With amps i wouldnt go with anything too cheap. It sucks when amps blow or have powering problems at a show. Usually you can find rock solid amps used for really good prices. Used Crown Macrotechs are excellent choices for budget used amps.

Here i also recommend getting amps that can power more than what your speakers can handle. If your looking for something solid and you end up doing a show that you need more volume but you have cranked up your amps to full. Not only are you unable to achieve more volume but you start running the risk of blowing the speakers. That might seem confusing since you are running less then you can handle but actually this situation is worse that the opposite. If you are running the amp as hot as it can go then you are most likely running the input line into clipping. There is no such thing as signal above 0dbs (0dbs is the highest level and goes to -dbs from there) so if a sine wave clips and goes above this threshold the top gets chopped and it then turns into a square wave. This is very hard on the electronics of the amp so you could easily blow the amp also. But the main issue is the signal now coming out of the amp would be a square wave also. The movement of the cone in the speaker correlates to this signal. When the positive of the signal hits the cone of the speaker it makes the cone extend outwards and then back in when the signal turns negative. This should be a steady cycle under a smooth sine wave. When the speaker is hit with a square wave it will extend as much as possible then hit the flat part of the wave which will cause the speaker to extend and then hold during the square part of the wave. Thus losing it fluid cycle motion and is very straining on the cone. This will cause the coils to over heat and blow. Also check and see the ohms your monitors and cabinets are rated. Is it 150 watt RMS 8ohms or 4ohms?

Theres a couple different options for the way to use the amps. For example the monitors could be run mono bridged with the amps. So a Crown macrotech 600 is rated around 600 watts stereo at 4ohms, but could easily be bridged together in mono to make 1400 watts 4ohms. However that will not allow you to run 2 seperate mixes for your monitors. You could always switch them to 600 watt stereo and run it seperate with less power too all the monitors later on however.

You could also do the same for each main cabinet. Get two Macrotech 600 amps and run them each mono bridged. Run the left channel to one amp and run it bridge mono to the left cabinet, and the right channel of the mixer to the other amp mono bridge to the right cabinet. This would give you the same as 1400watts on each speaker at 4ohms and still maintain stereo. Or of couse a single 2800 watt 4ohm stereo amp would do the same thing.

Next thing youll need is a good stage snake for this setup. If your doing something like the Mackie 1604 VLZ Pro for your mixer then you will want a snake that has 16 XLRs and 4 auxilaries. This is important to be able to mix out infront of the stage instead of tucked away behind the stage where you cant hear whats going on. The 16 XLR channels are patched right down the line of XLRs on the mixer. Aux Channels 1 and 2 (quarter inch for a 1604 VLZ) would be used to send your master outputs to the main cabinet amps. So Main Left Out on the mixer goes to Aux 1 on the snake, then out of Aux 1 on the other end directly into the input of main cabinet amp 1 or left channel, and main right out does the same through Aux 2 on the snake and into right channel or main amp 2. For your monitor mix use Auxilary sends on the mackie mixer 1 and 2. Aux out 1 and 2 on mackie 1604s are pre fader out. Which means whatever you do to the mix coming out of the main cabinets will not affect the signals to the monitor mix. This is really important. So Aux 3 and 4 on the snake would patch into Aux 1 and 2 on the mixer and then out of the snake into the input channels on your monitor amp.

If your amps have more watts then your speakers can handle then i recommend keeping there main volume pots to max. This means you have to watch your levels at the mixer and pay attention to the sound coming out of the speakers. You should be able to notice if you are driving them too hard. And if you do then just back off because that is the most you are going to get out of the system.

This is a very flexible and standard system for a good strong main mix and a seperate monitor mix. When you upgrade you will only need to upgrade things at a time. Say you start with a 2400watt amp for your mains off the start. Later on you decide you need more watts and more speakers so you upgrade that. You can always roll the 2400watt amp down to your monitor section and then slowly upgrade the amount of monitor cabinets you have accordingly. Then sell off or use the old monitor amps for spares.

Peace. Ask any questions you may have. I know this is confusing starting out.


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OfflineI Like Alkaloids
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Re: Need help with PA system! [Re: GoodbyeOrb]
    #8012903 - 02/12/08 11:21 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

GoodbyeOrb said:
stick to buying a combo pack from a local music shop or manufacturer.




Quote:

As simple as they seem, I don't want to purchase a cheap PA package. I would rather invest my funds into higher quality products that will last a long time.





Quote:

darnold said:Also check and see the ohms your monitors and cabinets are rated. Is it 150 watt RMS 8ohms or 4ohms?




As far as the monitors go, I'm not sure if they're 4 or 8 ohms. Here's a link to the monitors I'm looking at...

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Kustom-KPC210M-Dual-10-2Way-Monitor-Wedge?sku=600823

The nominal impedance on each cabinet is 4 ohms. Here's a link...

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Peavey-PV-215-Dual-15-2Way-Speaker-Cabinet?sku=601388


Thanks for the replies!  :cool:


--------------------
A lot of people here are assholes, but so am I...

:cool:


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InvisibleGoodbyeOrb
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Re: Need help with PA system! [Re: I Like Alkaloids]
    #8013266 - 02/12/08 01:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I Like Alkaloids said:
Quote:

GoodbyeOrb said:
stick to buying a combo pack from a local music shop or manufacturer.




Quote:

As simple as they seem, I don't want to purchase a cheap PA package. I would rather invest my funds into higher quality products that will last a long time.










uh yeah, they have expensive quality packages with high priced quality components too, so i wouldn't be so quick to throw out my advice.


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OfflineI Like Alkaloids
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Re: Need help with PA system! [Re: GoodbyeOrb]
    #8013337 - 02/12/08 01:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Hey, I don't mean to throw out your advice, but I need a little more meat than most of these packages offer. I'm still looking into many of them, but I'm having trouble finding a package with huge cabinets and multiple monitors, with a reliable reputation. I've been looking at several packages with huge cabinets, but I still have to figure out this monitor business.

There's just so many options, I don't know where to start!

Please don't get me wrong, I am thankful for your advice! That's why I started this post in the first place  :cool:


--------------------
A lot of people here are assholes, but so am I...

:cool:


Edited by I Like Alkaloids (02/12/08 01:35 PM)


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Offlinedarnold
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Re: Need help with PA system! [Re: I Like Alkaloids]
    #8014254 - 02/12/08 06:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I checked for more information on those monitors. It seems they get good reviews from Musicians Friend but thats all in the opinion of people who may not have alot of experience with other monitors in the same price range.

It sketches me out a little that they dont post the ohm rating right out front. All that i have been able to find is that the KPC models are 8ohm, which is very deceiving since they dont put that out front. But if it fits in your budget they might be the way to go.

Peaveys make pretty decent cabinets and have good warranty. But again there could be somethings similar in that price range that might be better suited and might not even be listed under musicians friend.

Have you thought about what you are looking for in a main mixer?


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OfflineI Like Alkaloids
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Re: Need help with PA system! [Re: darnold]
    #8014848 - 02/12/08 08:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

darnold said:
It sketches me out a little that they dont post the ohm rating right out front. 

Have you thought about what you are looking for in a main mixer?




Yes, this sketches me out too! They really make this a pain in the ass for amateurs like myself!

I have not thought about a main mixer yet. I'm just too anxious to get some badass speakers and the means to power them.
:cool:


--------------------
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OfflineI Like Alkaloids
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Re: Need help with PA system! [Re: I Like Alkaloids]
    #8027376 - 02/15/08 01:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ahh!

The people at Kustom are very friendly and helpful! They replied to my question in less than 1 minute!

These monitors are 8 ohms, so I'll need an amp that provides 900 Watts @ 8 ohms.

:cool:


--------------------
A lot of people here are assholes, but so am I...

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Re: Need help with PA system! [Re: I Like Alkaloids]
    #8028335 - 02/15/08 05:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

My penis provides 900W @ 8 ohms, the chicks love it.:tongue:


Seriously though, how many channels you looking for?


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OfflineI Like Alkaloids
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Re: Need help with PA system! [Re: GoodbyeOrb]
    #8032649 - 02/16/08 08:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

GoodbyeOrb said:
My penis provides 900W @ 8 ohms, the chicks love it.:tongue:


Seriously though, how many channels you looking for?




I don't even know yet!

I think I can get by with 8 channels for now, but I know that I'll need more in the future! I actually have an 8 channel mixer, but I don't even want to bother with it. It's an old school Tascam. It's fucking ancient.
:cool:


Edited by I Like Alkaloids (02/16/08 08:53 PM)


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Re: Need help with PA system! [Re: I Like Alkaloids]
    #8033860 - 02/17/08 07:26 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

well if you are going to need more channels in the future, you might as well go ahead and get them now, although at a certain point, you are going to be unable to find the mixer and amp rolled into one, so you might want to just get an amp and use the tascam, and save up money for a fullsize board that will fill your needs.


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OfflineI Like Alkaloids
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Re: Need help with PA system! [Re: darnold]
    #8058372 - 02/22/08 08:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

darnold said:
Here i also recommend getting amps that can power more than what your speakers can handle.



Does it matter how much "headroom" I have?
This amp says Stereo Mode: 8 ohms: 180 Watts RMS X 2.
Would this be enough to run 2 of the monitors mentioned above if each monitor is rated at 150 Watts RMS, 300 Watt peak?

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Peavey-PV-900-Power-Amp?sku=481390

Quote:

If your looking for something solid and you end up doing a show that you need more volume but you have cranked up your amps to full. Not only are you unable to achieve more volume but you start running the risk of blowing the speakers. That might seem confusing since you are running less then you can handle but actually this situation is worse that the opposite. If you are running the amp as hot as it can go then you are most likely running the input line into clipping.



Quote:

If your amps have more watts then your speakers can handle then i recommend keeping there main volume pots to max.



I am going to assume that my amp(s) will have more watts than my speakers can handle. If I max out the main volume pots on my amp, will this create heat and run the input line into clipping?

Quote:

Ask any questions you may have. I know this is confusing starting out.



:cool:


Edited by I Like Alkaloids (02/22/08 09:01 PM)


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