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OfflineDraigan
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Oh, poor poor slaves of desire.
    #8002146 - 02/09/08 09:43 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Its so sad to see. I feel like so many people work very hard at keeping themselves and anyone els they can down. Everyone is using gasoline they know they souldnt use, fighting fights they shouldnt fight, eating crappy foods they shouldnt eat, calling people names they shouldnt call, and ruining sex! Its horrible.

Whats it for? What do we gain? We gain weight, yellow teeth, corroded brains, arguments, violence, sorrow, hate, and finally....Pleasure.
Oh yes! We gain lots of pleasure. Sure our minds are sluggish from all the consumables we consumed and we keep going on about that "fucking bitch who talked behind our back, but atleast this Big Mac tastes so fucking good. Who cares that the animals probably feel like shit as we pump them full of poison, and mutate them so much they cant even walk? Right? Anyways, I know this porno slut I am watching is suffering, suffering from our dead, but ahhhhh, fuck it. It feels good. Atleast for that 15 minutes my dick will will be slobbered on, and Il play with perverse thoughts in my head. After, well, Il probably feel like shit, but I wont even notice because I always feel like shit."

That branch of desire grows so strong! The desire becomes so hard to break. Most of us have been going from one desire to another for so long we don't even have a clue how to live without desire. Giving up desire is like giving up ourselves.

Hehehe

"False power is attachment to power.
True power is letting go of power."

Lao Tzu


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Offlinelobotomix
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Re: Oh, poor poor slaves of desire. [Re: Draigan]
    #8003731 - 02/10/08 08:17 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

:wink:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Oh, poor poor slaves of desire. [Re: lobotomix]
    #8003868 - 02/10/08 10:28 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

while there is nothing particularly wrong with thinking with your dick (that is if you have one) there is tremendous confusion about the defilements of spirit.

wikipedia- "The seven deadly sins, also known as the capital vices or cardinal sins, are a classification of vices that were originally used in early Christian teachings to educate and instruct followers concerning (immoral) fallen man's tendency to sin."

in old hinduism and peasant buddhism desire is formulated as the root of all evil, while a closer look at karma repaints it as greed, with hatred and delusion (3 roots) and a deeper analysis reveals it to be clinging.


just clinging.
clinging in the mind.
Yet mind is all about clinging or attachment or association, so it is endemic to all living.

each moment we are engaged in any form of recognition, it is then and there that we are those slaves.
Knowing this, then and there we are free - seeing what we are frees us of guilt and lets us sieze the opportunity to consume less mechanically.


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OfflineDraigan
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Re: Oh, poor poor slaves of desire. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8003910 - 02/10/08 10:56 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

"
each moment we are engaged in any form of recognition, it is then and there that we are those slaves. "
Invisibleredgreenvines

I disagree. I play chess. I fail to see how playing chess is making me a slave to desire. However, I can see how if I were smoking, and knew it shouldn't be, but clung to the notion that, for instance, "I didn't care or I'm going to die someday anyways," then that would be clinging. See, for me, if I hear "I want chips," I instantly think if it will be a skillfull thing. If I decide it isnt a skillfull thing, what sort of thing will make me eat the chips? Desire will. False Identification with the ego will. However, if one knows clearly the way of ego. They can say, hey "fuck this" I know you too well. Your a fucking lier who only cares about themself. Perhaps you may be less crude about it. lol :P Thats why the world is such a messed up place. People believe in their ego. They don't see it as an illusion coming from the human mind. Oh no.

So next time your craving, ask yourself, is this good for me? What will stand in my way if its not?

The nature of desires is the more you harbour them the bigger they grow! The less you play with them. The more you forbare their discomfort, whilst not giving into temptaion, the more they diminish.

Understand this law, and joy will follow.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Oh, poor poor slaves of desire. [Re: Draigan]
    #8004100 - 02/10/08 12:30 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

yellow teeth,

You can have those whitened you know.

That branch of desire grows so strong! The desire becomes so hard to break. Most of us have been going from one desire to another for so long we don't even have a clue how to live without desire. Giving up desire is like giving up ourselves.


Garbage in garbage out. Programs on top of programs.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (02/10/08 12:31 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Oh, poor poor slaves of desire. [Re: Draigan]
    #8004130 - 02/10/08 12:40 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Draigan said:
"
each moment we are engaged in any form of recognition, it is then and there that we are those slaves. "
Invisibleredgreenvines

I disagree. I play chess. I fail to see how playing chess is making me a slave to desire. However, I can see how if I were smoking, and knew it shouldn't be, but clung to the notion that, for instance, "I didn't care or I'm going to die someday anyways," then that would be clinging. See, for me, if I hear "I want chips," I instantly think if it will be a skillfull thing. If I decide it isnt a skillfull thing, what sort of thing will make me eat the chips? Desire will. False Identification with the ego will. However, if one knows clearly the way of ego. They can say, hey "fuck this" I know you too well. Your a fucking lier who only cares about themself. Perhaps you may be less crude about it. lol :P Thats why the world is such a messed up place. People believe in their ego. They don't see it as an illusion coming from the human mind. Oh no.

So next time your craving, ask yourself, is this good for me? What will stand in my way if its not?

The nature of desires is the more you harbour them the bigger they grow! The less you play with them. The more you forbare their discomfort, whilst not giving into temptaion, the more they diminish.

Understand this law, and joy will follow.




you have just built the classical task list which you cannot fulfill.
I can't blame you.
holy holy people do what you are saying.
(they are not enlightened)

what I am saying relates to seeing things as they are
as in
what is happenning now.
an ongoing illumination by the self of the self.
seeing seeing.
no logic load at all
but relief from clinging.


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OfflineDraigan
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Re: Oh, poor poor slaves of desire. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8004191 - 02/10/08 01:01 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

What is a classical task list which I cannot fufill?

"what I am saying relates to seeing things as they are
as in
what is happenning now.
an ongoing illumination by the self of the self.
seeing seeing.
no logic load at all
but relief from clinging. "

Honetsly I don't understand that. Im not really "on the up" with the Zen speak.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Oh, poor poor slaves of desire. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8004264 - 02/10/08 01:28 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Oh, poor poor slaves of desire. [Re: Draigan]
    #8004553 - 02/10/08 02:53 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Why did you choose desire as the key act of enslavement?
You can look at any action and see desire in it, but enslavement is another issue.
Still it is the classical declaration of fault, or human failing.
but it is not even just human,
all creatures have desire, want or need.

Eastern religions, (especially for the common man/woman/child) also point at desire as a point of falling out of line.
But that is so quickly confused, good desire , bad desire, guilt, all of it.
The key there is "out of line", and it relates to the role of religion - To control the masses.

Buddhism takes a finer grain look at the source of suffering, the source of bad karma, and resolves that hatred, greed and delusion are the root causes of bad karma; and desire maps to "greed" in that list. (it is still Karma for Dummies)

But that list, and karma itself is easily misconstrued to mean something disconnected from life in the moment, and from the innate workings of the mind and personality.

What I am talking about is mind itself.
it has an associative nature.
ideas or images in the mind are connected to other ideas, experiences and memories by association (simmilarity, likeness, or having occurred at the same time together)
this association is the sticky stuff of mind
this sticky stuff can get really sticky,
and you may find yourself stuck because of it.

that is the kind of suffering you can alleviate.
you can see how the amazing mind operates, and with this insight, you can skip some involvements, sticky associations that are inappropriate yet compelling.

calling desire bad is like calling asphault bad. (does asphault cause people to buy SUV's)
Desire, or attachment is part of the mind's interconnection system.

One needs to face any particular demons one may have accumulated, and see how they are just habits, sticky associative sequences.

in particular, sexual desire is not responsible for prostitution, nor abusive porn star treatment.
And such a porn star's life is not so easy to judge from a distance.

On the other hand, excess of gas guzzling is helping nobody. That relates to unfortunate social policies that fuel a voracious "consumer society" and those ills relate to ignorance even more than desire. Sustainability is not part of the consumer society's plan, it will collapse or transform into something sane.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Oh, poor poor slaves of desire. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8004700 - 02/10/08 03:30 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Why did you choose desire as the key act of enslavement?

It's not desire that is a problem it's addiction or attachment to the desired object.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineevolprim
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Re: Oh, poor poor slaves of desire. [Re: Draigan]
    #8004707 - 02/10/08 03:31 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

you only live once, get as attached to everything as you damn well please. :borat:


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OfflineDraigan
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Re: Oh, poor poor slaves of desire. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8004738 - 02/10/08 03:41 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

"Why did you choose desire as the key act of enslavement?
You can look at any action and see desire in it, but enslavement is another issue." I dunno what you mean. People do bad things for a reason. the reason we do the bad things is the reason for our enslavement.

"
What I am talking about is mind itself." as in everything?

"it has an associative nature." Uhm....?

in particular, sexual desire is not responsible for prostitution, nor abusive porn star treatment. Why do you say this?

Please understand. I cant just believe what you say because you say it. There has to be evidence.

I think sexual desire has a huge part in prostitution. If sexual desire didnt have a huge part in prostitution why would any customers go to them? Just because they didnt desire to do it?


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OfflineDraigan
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Re: Oh, poor poor slaves of desire. [Re: Draigan]
    #8004770 - 02/10/08 03:48 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

"you only live once, get as attached to everything as you damn well please."
evolprim

The fact that you only live once only means you shouldnt be attached to everything. Attachment to desire gives rise to sorrow. Thats why we have so many hatefull sorrowful beings here. Oh they should just keep doing nasty drugs, thats what your saying? They should stay a slave to desire even when they are fucking little girls? You damn well please to murder jews. Going to do that? I find your post the epitome of obnoxious.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Oh, poor poor slaves of desire. [Re: Draigan]
    #8004784 - 02/10/08 03:53 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

The poor slaves of desire are the ones giving you the ability to be taking part in philosophical meanderings. If you have to hunt or gather your food and protect yourself from the wild, how much chess or internet posting do you think you'd be doing? I'd wager very little.

The same materialism and pleasure seeking you bash is the one you wholeheartedly take part in and support.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Oh, poor poor slaves of desire. [Re: Draigan]
    #8004837 - 02/10/08 04:07 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Draigan said:
...in particular, sexual desire is not responsible for prostitution, nor abusive porn star treatment. Why do you say this?

Please understand. I cant just believe what you say because you say it. There has to be evidence.

I think sexual desire has a huge part in prostitution. If sexual desire didnt have a huge part in prostitution why would any customers go to them? Just because they didnt desire to do it?




go back to the road idea
we use asphault to pave roads
but
now we have too many SUV's on the asphault
asphault enabled driving, and you could say that asphault is the cause of SUV's
Sure there is a relationship
and the nasty SUV's are guzzling gas and using the available asphault.

change back to sex.
desire.
lust.
pleasure.
love.
procreation.

all the above are good.

insidiously problems arize due to the protection industry, the whole power stucture thing.
in sociology you need to understand big monkey little monkey
even big dog little dog.
who may mate
who owns the fertile women.

as societies become more stable the domination rackets go underground, like mafias, and natural love and marriages from love can occur.

Underground there are still mafias. the mafias run drug (coke heroin ecstacy even thc) and prostitution rings as well as numerous other opportunities.

the mafias are the SUV's Big monkeys doing the whole protection racket and taking whatever they want.

some of these monkeys are so big you can't tell if they are legitimate or not.

anyway prostitution is from the power structure and the mafias, but being a prostitute is not necessarily the lowest rung possible, nor is it due to primal desire, it is just a piece of a big picture that you can sort out for yourself, either stay away from it or know it for what it is.

what I am trying to say is desire does not cause prostitution, and prostitution is not bad, but domination and abuse is bad and that is not due to sexual desire, it is due to ignorance and fear.

I think getting people fucked up and guilty about their own sexuality feeds the fear and strengthens the powerstructures.

we have to see ourselves as what we are, and look more deeply at the systems that are in place and who benefits financially from them to judge what is what.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Oh, poor poor slaves of desire. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8004959 - 02/10/08 04:46 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

we have to see ourselves as what we are, and look more deeply at the systems that are in place and who benefits financially from them to judge what is what.


A tall order indeed. Most will not go.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineevolprim
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Re: Oh, poor poor slaves of desire. [Re: Draigan]
    #8004988 - 02/10/08 05:00 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

no thats not what I'm saying
i am saying you shouldn't be afraid to get involved in life, and go live in a hill just because some monk several thousand years ago, who had none of the luxurious of modern day living says its the right thing to do.
you should enjoy your life to the fullest and do what makes you happy, but be mindful of other people (i.e dont cause other people to suffer).

but if someone wants to live in the mountains isolated and meditated all day, and that makes them happy, then more power to them.


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Offlineevolprim
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Re: Oh, poor poor slaves of desire. [Re: Draigan]
    #8004998 - 02/10/08 05:02 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
The poor slaves of desire are the ones giving you the ability to be taking part in philosophical meanderings. If you have to hunt or gather your food and protect yourself from the wild, how much chess or internet posting do you think you'd be doing? I'd wager very little.



The same materialism and pleasure seeking you bash is the one you wholeheartedly take part in and support.




qft. you are playing the game just like everyone else, but yours just has a different name.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Oh, poor poor slaves of desire. [Re: Draigan]
    #8005023 - 02/10/08 05:10 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I went to a technical school (college) where you would be in class sometimes 16 hours a day, 8 at the least... 7 days a week.

so many times the teachers used to tell us how important having perfect attendance was and how much it would help us get jobs. so of course a few people screwed that up on the first day, but people kept holding on for months, all to fuck it up after 9 months or so.
Only one guy in my class actually did it. it wasnt me.
out of the 60 that graduated, only 4 of us got jobs. everyone else was a car salesman, peep show mopper... whatever.

the moral of this story is that people wagging their fingers at you and dangling promises in front of you is no reason for not living your life the way you want... be it heaven, hell or golden years.

you speak of desire, but is it not desire to be healthy, happy, have longevity, and a clean conscience that you refrain from things?
happy now, or happy later?
instant gratification, or gradual gratification?

just because those words have spin on them it seems a little better, but it is as hollow of a desire as instant gratification is.
more people come to a hedonists funeral than any other ones.


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OfflineDraigan
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Re: Oh, poor poor slaves of desire. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8005332 - 02/10/08 06:33 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

"The same materialism and pleasure seeking you bash is the one you wholeheartedly take part in and support."
I fail to see how humans working together as a community has anything to do with pleasure seeking and materialism. The materialism is what leaves my poor mother on disability  with less than she needs. Materialism and pleasure seeking just take from the needy. Even if people were not blood thirsty comfort seekers, I would still be able to love life. Humans are much more fun than any man made contraption ive yet to find.

"no thats not what I'm saying
i am saying you shouldn't be afraid to get involved in life, and go live in a hill just because some monk several thousand years ago, who had none of the luxurious of modern day living says its the right thing to do. "

I agree. I find the notion of running away to the mountains archaic. I found how you said "no thats not what I'm saying" very elegent. I noted how undefensive your posture was. :smile:

"you speak of desire, but is it not desire to be healthy, happy, have longevity, and a clean conscience that you refrain from things?"

One does not need desire to achieve those things. Desiring to be those things you speak of, in my oppinion, will just be a hindrance. What if your not healthy. Ok, so now you desire it. Well that sucks. However, if you spend lots of time and effort not wasting your energy desiring then when sickness comes, youll be accepting. Come on now. It hurts so much to not accept things because we have so little control, and often our problems hurt so much. Forinstance, pain, if we desire the pain to go away it usualy gets worse. Right? Many people have reported that acceptance of pain is what makes it diminish. Thats why I say do not waste time desiring to be healthy or happy or carefree or whatever. Just do it. Figure out what it takes to be happy or carefree or healthy.  Maybe for you that is desiring to be healthy.

Your slogan says Dick makes me hot. Lol I wonder if u ment for that to happen. haha. Anyways, I don't claim to have some sort of omnipotent truth. Just observations.


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