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arainbow
Hippy


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 691
Loc: Palnet Earth
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sterilizing without a pressure cooker
#7999542 - 02/09/08 10:01 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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could I add some 95% grain alcohol to the jars before I boil them would this make up for not using a pressure cooker ?
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arainbow
Hippy


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 691
Loc: Palnet Earth
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Re: sterilizing without a pressure cooker [Re: arainbow]
#7999572 - 02/09/08 10:13 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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could I test this by canning (no holes in the lids and rubber side down )a PF jar and look out for contams ? how long would it tack for contams to show up ?
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myCo_psyCo
a mycologist inthe making



Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 969
Loc: own private hell
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: sterilizing without a pressure cooker [Re: arainbow]
#7999582 - 02/09/08 10:17 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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it wouldnt make up for anything im sure and it would prolly increase the chances of something combusting lol if you are talking about pf jars your pretty much fine without a PC just get em really hot for really long {read the teks of corse} but if your talking about grain i dont know that it can be pulled off without a PC
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arainbow
Hippy


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 691
Loc: Palnet Earth
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Re: sterilizing without a pressure cooker [Re: myCo_psyCo]
#7999642 - 02/09/08 10:44 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I work in HVAC and I can state for a fact that the alcohol vapor will be too well mixed with water vapor to burn it would be like trying to light wine or beer the reports I have seen around the web is that just boiling the jars has a less than 50/50 chance of working
-------------------- There is more joy in heaven over one of us perfected, than over ninety-nine naturally evolved angels.
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HybridprX
Biodegrader of coir



Registered: 01/29/08 
Posts: 2,588
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: sterilizing without a pressure cooker [Re: arainbow]
#7999722 - 02/09/08 11:21 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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DO NOT! add alcohol to your jars prior to boiling them!
Read the bottle, flammable! combustible!
Grain's can not be sterilized simply by boiling them in jars, you would need to acquire a pressure cooker that can sterilize at 15psi.
--------------------
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Substance D
Smurfed Up



Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 239
Loc: Inside my Head
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Re: sterilizing without a pressure cooker [Re: arainbow]
#7999859 - 02/09/08 12:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
arainbow said: I work in HVAC and I can state for a fact that the alcohol vapor will be too well mixed with water vapor to burn it would be like trying to light wine or beer the reports I have seen around the web is that just boiling the jars has a less than 50/50 chance of working
just boil them it works fine out of 20 cakes i only lost 1 to contams just make sure your sterile when you knock them up,do not mix alcohol sounds like trouble ,follow the pf tek word by word
-------------------- You can turn your back on a person, but, never turn your back on a drug. Especially when it's waving a razor-sharp hunting knife in your eye.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
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Re: sterilizing without a pressure cooker [Re: arainbow]
#7999933 - 02/09/08 12:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Alcohol KILLS mushroom spores.
Sorry man, filling your gain with spore poison and hoping it will all burn off without exploding... leaving your un-pd'd grains sterile?!? That is a very bad idea.
No PC? Try PF tek... or get a pc.
Newbie mycologists should not stray from the teks until they've had some success growing.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Subbedhunter420
Solitary Hunter



Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 1,501
Loc: LA/Ventura County
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Re: sterilizing without a pressure cooker [Re: Rose]
#8000088 - 02/09/08 01:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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agreeed. I tried to sterilize pf tek jar a while back and had very little colonization and lots of contams. WBS is awesome when you get a pressure cooker. just find em on sale. I got mine for 25 bucks. that equals 1-2 grams of good weed. can you save up and not smoke? lol
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arainbow
Hippy


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 691
Loc: Palnet Earth
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Re: sterilizing without a pressure cooker [Re: Rose]
#8000166 - 02/09/08 01:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have no doubt it will not burn or explode at all . alcohol has a tight burning range I think it's about 10-1 to 8-1 air to vapor if I steam them instead of boiling them there will be about 1000 part's water vapor to one part alcohol vapor I have used steam to boil alcohol over a gas flame in a closed pot or I could use a hot plate with a small fan blowing all vapor away from the thermostat this time of year I deal with combustion every day at work I also have no doubt that when the jars get to 200 deg F there will be no alcohol left at all not even slight traces alcohol boils at 172 deg F at 97% water 3% alcohol 168deg F for 95% alcohol 5% water I know this from running beer through my still so until 97% of the alcohol in the jars is gone the temp will not even get up to 173 deg F and I doubt that any thing could live through being exposed to 165 deg F alcohol
I also doubt that setting the jars in boiling water works at all I think they need to be steamed instead of boiled because boiling water could only get the inside of the jars to about 180 deg F steam could get them up to at least 211 deg F because steam doesn't have to cool down to transfer heat look up latent heat of vaporization I know this because I deal with heat transfer every day at work
I guess I'll have to do a test batch and only heat the jars to 190 deg F
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Subbedhunter420
Solitary Hunter



Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 1,501
Loc: LA/Ventura County
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Re: sterilizing without a pressure cooker [Re: arainbow]
#8000207 - 02/09/08 01:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think what youre not understanding is this:
pressure cookers are useful because they kill everything. When water boils at 212 degrees, it doesnt kill all of the endospores. A pressure cooker at 15 PSI causes the temperature to go to 250 degrees and kill 99.9% all living things. Boiling cannot kill these hardy endospores.
You want to put grain alcohol in your jars... several things you will encounter troubling is thus:
1. you will be throwing off the moisture in the grain/cakes if you put in alcohol. 2. Alcohol wont kill the endospores IN the grain. 3. you may be wasting your time buying that stuff and trying. Your method will likely be unsuccessful compared to if you just used a cheap pressure cooker.
Go ahead and try though. youre gonna find it difficult to say the least...
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: sterilizing without a pressure cooker [Re: arainbow]
#8000222 - 02/09/08 01:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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The question isn't weather the alcohol will explode. As long as your ratios are right, you are correct, there will be no explosion. But I'm not going to suggest newbies try this... when there is a PERFECTLY SAFE, and PROVEN tek out there, for boiling/steaming jars!
The problem is ALCOHOL KILLS SPORES. You want a STERILE environment inside your jar... not a TOXIC one.
If you plan on using GRAIN, you need a PC because GRAIN, unlike BRF, contains BACTERIA... bacterial endospores don't die at temps below 212! Mold does... but not bacteria.
If you wish to boil/steam, do the PF TEK.
If you wish to use grain, get a PC.
Do NOT use alcohol. You may as well be filling your jars with fungicide... and it IS flammable if done improperly.
There is NO PRECEDENT for your idea... and you asked US what WE thought.
I think you have your answer.
Your idea is faulted.
If you wish to succeed, follow a PROVEN tek.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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heed
A glutton formycology


Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 103
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: sterilizing without a pressure cooker [Re: arainbow]
#8000233 - 02/09/08 01:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Plain and simple. This goes for EVERYONE.
If you're serious about growing at all, past PF which have huge limitations, get a PC.
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 11 months, 3 days
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Re: sterilizing without a pressure cooker [Re: arainbow]
#8000238 - 02/09/08 01:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
I also doubt that setting the jars in boiling water works at all I think they need to be steamed instead of boiled because boiling water could only get the inside of the jars to about 180 deg F steam could get them up to at least 211 deg F because steam doesn't have to cool down to transfer heat look up latent heat of vaporization I know this because I deal with heat transfer every day at work
I guess I'll have to do a test batch and only heat the jars to 190 deg F
I think you need to bone up on your physics a bit my friend. Small jars with damp substrate surrounded by steam don't correlate well with the condenser coil on a refrigeration unit that has 80F air blowing across it. In addition, steam does cool down as it transfers heat, and that's why the lids of our kettles or pressure cookers rain down condensation during the whole cycle.
Follow the pf tek, and you'll have 100% success unless you mess up further down the line. You steam the jars in a large kettle with a tight fitting lid. They're not supposed to be in the boiling water, but rather on a rack above it. The steam is 100C/212F and after half an hour or so in that steam, the interior of your jars will have reached that same temperature. That's why we steam for 90 minutes. It allows the center of the jars to be at or near 100C for an hour. Wet brf is not an insulating material. It's actually an excellent heat conductor.
Don't use alcohol.
The people who get contaminated pf cakes would get them whether they pressure cooked or not, becuase they're getting the contamination at inoculation. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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arainbow
Hippy


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 691
Loc: Palnet Earth
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Re: sterilizing without a pressure cooker [Re: Subbedhunter420]
#8000479 - 02/09/08 02:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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dig it I have a 3quart pressure cooker what I can't find is a local source for jars that will fit inside this PC or a bigger used PC because of where I live I can't receive shipments from UPS,DHL or any of the rest of them they will get stolen and you just can't tell UPS not to allow John doe ,Joe Smith or even Mr.X NOT to receive packages for you they informed me that they are working for the shipper and not for ME! Joe Doe received a shipment from UPS for $3000.00 of parts that guy was SOL because some one had singed for the packages. and it's a 50 mile round trip to the UPS terminal from here and no one selling them on the web will ship by USPS
I don't even want to think about using foil instead of a lid ! for something like this
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
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Re: sterilizing without a pressure cooker [Re: arainbow]
#8000738 - 02/09/08 03:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Since you mentioned the USPS, I assume you are in the USA.
Drive the 50 miles, to the nearest Wal Mart, and spend the 30-50 bux on a real PC. They have jars, too.
You'll only have to do it once.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Subbedhunter420
Solitary Hunter



Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 1,501
Loc: LA/Ventura County
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Re: sterilizing without a pressure cooker [Re: Rose]
#8004259 - 02/10/08 11:26 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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yep. or go to the online kerr jar store and buy em really cheap. theyre just jars anyways... i think 16 of em was like... 15 bucks?
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