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HighHat
Repeat Gold Medal eBay -TiVoist



Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 303
Loc: Delocated
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
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The argument against abortion is the same as the argument against drugs. Abortions have existed for thousands of years, the only difference is today, in the US, women don't have to throw themselves down stairs, sharpen coat hangers, or drink varying substances that are dangerous to both the fetus and the mother.
Abortion, like drug use, is not going anywhere. Women have and always will find a way to abort their pregnancy (if that is what they really want) in one way or another. An abortion clinic is the equivalent to a SIF. Women who want an abortion get an abortion with minimal risk to themselves. It would be barbaric to take away this avenue for women who does not want a child to "fix" their "problem." Say what you like, but a problem is what it is to someone who cannot support a child and abortion is a "solution."
That said, I believe a woman who can endure and support a healthy pregnancy should at least see the pregnancy through and put the child up for adoption. It is a different matter, however, if the woman cannot support a healthy pregnancy or social pressures would damage their relations, in turn decreasing their quality of life, limiting their opportunities, and keeping them from reaching their full potential. This may sound ambiguous, but that's the point. It is ultimately up to the woman to decide what is better for them, not anal-retentive do-rights that think they understand every person's situations in life and decide what is best for them.
If you don't agree with abortion, don't get one. That is the most that you should do. Running around touting your definitions of life, your interviews with people that are happy to be alive, and your beliefs on what you think is or isn't 'right,' may make you feel better, perhaps even fulfill some sort of religious shortcoming you may be subliminally aware of, but you have to realize at some point or another that your views, beliefs and practices are not necessarily right for ANY other person, much less EVERY other person.
Here's a solution to abortion: every female would get a shot rendering them sterile. This could be reversed by taking a pill. Therefore, there would never be an unwanted pregnancy and no need for abortions. This is undoubtedly debatable. There is no such thing as a perfect solution, you have to pick what is right for you. Who is anyone to stand in the way?
You can't miss what you never had. Same goes for life. Who says the same person wont be born from a different pregnancy?
-------------------- Have you ever felt like you were wearing a hat, but you weren't? "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" -Letter from the Pennsylvania Assembly, November 11, 1755 This profile is strictly for role-playing. Any alleged association with illegal activities is purely fictional. Any images depicting illegal activities are photo-shopped or stolen.
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Abortion [Re: HighHat]
#8014296 - 02/12/08 06:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
The argument against abortion is the same as the argument against drugs. Abortions have existed for thousands of years, the only difference is today, in the US, women don't have to throw themselves down stairs, sharpen coat hangers, or drink varying substances that are dangerous to both the fetus and the mother.
not at all
drugs should be legal because it is immoral to sanction someone for using them, which is not an immoral act
additionally the practicalities of enforcing prohibitionist laws are such that the benifits are less than the harms
--
I get what your saying though, arguing from a harm reduction standpoint, but this is a bit misguided imo. Harm to the mother when she herself makes the choice to abort pales in comparison to the harm to the fetus. If you accept a given fetus is a moral being, I don't see how it matters how the mother hurts herself as a result of the law.
The bigger issue on a policy level is can it be certain that abortion is wrong? I think this is not certain. Morally I think after a few weeks its wrong to abort in most cases, out of an abundance of caution, but this doesn't translate to a policy that should be enacted.
Since we can't be sure when a being comes into existance, we probably shouldn't criminalize all abortion, as criminal laws should only attach where there is a clear moral wrong being commited. And I'm not certain that abortions via miscarraige are that hard to induce, but I'm really not educated on this point.
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Mushouse
Mycomancer

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 500
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Re: Abortion [Re: johnm214]
#8014568 - 02/12/08 07:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: criminal laws should only attach where there is a clear moral wrong being commited.
Imagine a world where you are a "criminal" because you act in a way that goes against the beliefs of another. You don't have to imagine too hard, because you're living in that world right now. Some people say that simple sodomy is immoral; and for that reason it is a criminal act, where I live, anyhow. I find that simply fucking ridiculous.
Who decides what is moral?
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Abortion [Re: Mushouse]
#8014635 - 02/12/08 07:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mushouse said:
Quote:
johnm214 said: criminal laws should only attach where there is a clear moral wrong being commited.
Imagine a world where you are a "criminal" because you act in a way that goes against the beliefs of another. You don't have to imagine too hard, because you're living in that world right now. Some people say that simple sodomy is immoral; and for that reason it is a criminal act, where I live, anyhow. I find that simply fucking ridiculous.
Who decides what is moral?
whoever is in charge of the state, hopefully an electorate made up of the people. Your imagined world exists, and is our world. Things are always illegal because they go against the beliefs of someone... what is this imagining business?
how would you make laws? disregard morals and randomly assign penalties to random acts?
sodomy is clearly not an immoral act, but so what some think it is? Some people think other things should be illegal, too. The fact that they think this, and are wrong, doesn't mean laws are bad, and the fact that some have views on morality that are indefensible is likewise not a condemnation of morality.
It should certainly be a prerequisite for an act to be criminal that it be an immoral act (though policy considerations and the practicalities of enforcement may make some immoral acts wrong to criminalize). Just what do you propose instead?
Or do you simply not like the word?
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Mushouse
Mycomancer

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 500
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Re: Abortion [Re: johnm214]
#8018453 - 02/13/08 04:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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You say that those who are in charge of the state decide what is moral, then you go and say that certain laws, based on what people in charge said is moral, are wrong. So those people who are in charge: do they or do they not decide what is moral? Who is the authority on morality? I think that you believe it is you.
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Abortion [Re: Mushouse]
#8018626 - 02/13/08 05:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Mushouse said: You say that those who are in charge of the state decide what is moral, then you go and say that certain laws, based on what people in charge said is moral, are wrong. So those people who are in charge: do they or do they not decide what is moral? Who is the authority on morality? I think that you believe it is you.
Yes, the legislating body may decide what is moral and enforce that determination with the force of law- (which is not what I'm advocating be done anyways. I'm saying that immorality should be a prerequisite to criminalizing a particular behavior).
Yes I may disagree with that determination.
so what?
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Syle
Kenai Sigh


Registered: 10/16/05
Posts: 6,678
Loc: WA
Last seen: 10 months, 26 days
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: I am 110% in favor of abortion.
I am absolutely immune to all talk of when life begins, or what constitutes a person, or the definition of a fetus.
It just does not matter one whit to me.
The only thing that matters is if you can tell another person what to do with their body. I do not see how it is in any way, shape, or form moral or right for a government to tell a woman that she *MUST* carry a fetus around with her for the next 9 months, her personal feelings on the matter being completely irrelevant.
Who is government to make this decision?
I believe Roe v. Wade was adjudicated correctly. While nearly everyone agrees that there are or should be limits to the power of the Federal government, I believe it is right and proper for the Federal government to act to prevent the usurpation of a person's rights by the state. The right of the states to pass laws banning this and that is not inviolate. The Federal government would certainly step in and stop a state like Mississippi from passing a law banning black people from having their tonsils removed. It is a prejudicial law.
So how can you tell a pregnant woman that she *HAS* to have a baby? Does the government know what is best for that woman?
Really?
When people talk about politics, they often mention certain issues as "Deal-Breakers" for them. Issues that if a politician were on the wrong side of that they could never vote for that politician. Abortion is that issue for me. I can not, will not, and could not ever vote a politician that was Pro-Life.
It is absolutely wrong to me.
And for the Ron Paul supporters out there, letting the states decide the issue is the EXACT SAME THING as banning abortion. Trying to paint it as otherwise is a blatant falsehood.
do you support health care plans that require all americans that they MUST have health care?
-------------------- https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!
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Mushouse
Mycomancer

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 500
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Re: Abortion [Re: johnm214]
#8018692 - 02/13/08 05:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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So you're saying that the legislating body is the authority on morality; that they are the ones that determine what is moral and immoral. Then you turn right around and say they're wrong.
So who decides morality then? If you say they're wrong, then how can you say they're the ones who decide?
I guess what I'm really getting at is this: morals are purely a matter of opinion. Nobody can just decide that something is immoral, because if asked why that something is immoral it will always boil down to "just because." You state that you disagree that sodomy is immoral, yet those legislating bodies have said that it is. Are you wrong then? Didn't you say that they decide morality? That would mean they decide what you think. So how can you hold your opinion? They just told you otherwise!
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kriminalelement
"jesus wept."



Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 1,201
Loc: Ay! los popos estan aqui!
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Re: Abortion [Re: Mushouse]
#8018825 - 02/13/08 06:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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additionally the practicalities of enforcing prohibitionist laws are such that the benifits are less than the harms
Right, because a woman drinking a lethal dose of abortive tea or puncturing her uterus and bleeding to death aren't side-effects of prohibitionist laws.
Face the facts: laws against abortion kill women, and the benefits are less than the harms. Bearing a child is incredibly exhausting and dangerous, and getting an abortion without a doctor is even worse.
-------------------- While there is a lower class, I am in it While there is a criminal element, I am of it While there is a soul in prison, I am not free. Eugene V Debs
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kriminalelement
"jesus wept."



Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 1,201
Loc: Ay! los popos estan aqui!
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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On second thought, laws against abortion are unjust. They don't just kill women, they outright murder them.
-------------------- While there is a lower class, I am in it While there is a criminal element, I am of it While there is a soul in prison, I am not free. Eugene V Debs
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