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OfflineJOEBIALEK
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Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 21
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Abortion
    #7997332 - 02/08/08 05:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

On this 35th anniversary of the Roe v. Wade decision, I would like to share my views on the issue of abortion.

Life begins at the point of conception. No one can deny that after a human being is conceived it will develop into the very same being as those debating this issue. What astounds me is that those who favor abortion went through an identical development stage as the being they are condemning to death. Would these very same people agree that a similiar choice should have been made about their own existence? Abortion today is used primarily as a birth control of convenience because people are too self-centered to take precautions. They prefer their own pleasurable self-indulgence over the care and sanctity of the life they created. What ever happened to taking responsibility for one's actions in this country? Is it too much to ask a woman who has conceived to place the child into adoption? Nine months of discomfort is nothing compared to life in prison for voluntary manslaughter! Does the father of the child have a say in this? And what about the constitution of the United States? Are not all people conceived in this country deserving of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? I believe abortion is a crime against humanity and should be outlawed. We need to overturn the Roe v. Wade decision and get back to cherishing life in this country. For a country that murders it's children cannot be far from self destruction.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
Re: Abortion [Re: JOEBIALEK]
    #7997392 - 02/08/08 06:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

> Life begins at the point of conception. No one can deny that after a human being is conceived it will develop into the very same being as those debating this issue.

I can, because you are incorrect. The majority of fertilized eggs never manage to implant into a woman's uterus and are purged from the body. That's right. If life begins at conception, then the vast majority of "babies" are naturally aborted by a woman's body. Had you made the above claims with respect to implantation of the fertilized egg into the uterus wall, then I might agree with you. But you didn't, and I don't.

> Is it too much to ask a woman who has conceived to place the child into adoption?

To ask no, to force yes. Who are you to tell me what my moral values should be?

> Does the father of the child have a say in this?

Nope. After birth, yes. Before birth, no. Again, you are confusing a child with a fetus.

> We need to overturn the Roe v. Wade decision and get back to cherishing life in this country.

Who are you to tell me what my moral values should be?

> For a country that murders it's children cannot be far from self destruction.

Assuming by "children" you mean fetus, then China would disagree with you. They are about to self-destruct from over population.

Edit: ... and before you get too wound up telling me how bad of a person I am, you should know that I am anti-abortion.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


Edited by Seuss (02/08/08 06:12 PM)


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
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Re: Abortion [Re: JOEBIALEK]
    #7997406 - 02/08/08 06:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You have a sound sense of morality and ethics. For this I :congrats: you.

However you have let yourself come to conclusion that your morality trumps everyone elses, and that women aren't responsible enough to make their own moral, health, and reproductive decisions, that the government should do that for them. And for this, I say :spank:


Edit: ... and before you get too wound up telling me how bad of a person I am, you should know that I am anti-abortion.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Abortion [Re: JOEBIALEK]
    #7997434 - 02/08/08 06:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Life begins at the point of conception.




Why?


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InvisibleMushouse
Mycomancer

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 500
Re: Abortion [Re: JOEBIALEK]
    #7997437 - 02/08/08 06:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I ask: What is worse? To remove a fetus/child, or to birth it into a world where it is unwanted? "Just pop it out, then give it away! It's that simple!" Well, sometimes a person will take responsibility for their actions and abort the child before it has to endure this world.


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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Abortion [Re: JOEBIALEK]
    #7997439 - 02/08/08 06:22 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Roe v Wade was bad legislation, no matter what you believe about abortion.

My opinion: A women has a right to do what she wants with her body. When is the baby no longer part of her body? To some only after it naturally exits the womb, to others at the moment of conception. To me, if it has a separate DNA code, and when its brain develops (particularly the higher order parts) then it is its own human and though it requires nourishment from the mother it has the rights of a individual human.

In any regard, the father should have rights not only the mother. Either the father or mother should have the right to veto the abortion. Like firing a nuke, it should take two keys.


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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Abortion [Re: Mushouse]
    #7997443 - 02/08/08 06:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Mushouse said:
I ask: What is worse? To remove a fetus/child, or to birth it into a world where it is unwanted? "Just pop it out, then give it away! It's that simple!" Well, sometimes a person will take responsibility for their actions and abort the child before it has to endure this world.


You should ask some adopted/orphaned kids/adults and see what they say. I bet the majority are glad they are alive. I know my mom is (she was adopted).


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InvisibleMushouse
Mycomancer

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 500
Re: Abortion [Re: DieCommie]
    #7997493 - 02/08/08 06:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well, if I knew of any, perhaps I would. It is an open question.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
Re: Abortion [Re: DieCommie]
    #7997508 - 02/08/08 06:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

> Roe v Wade was bad legislation, no matter what you believe about abortion.

Agree completely. Leave moral decisions to the family and community. The state does not need to get involved.

> the father should have rights not only the mother.

After birth, absolutely. Before birth, her body.

> Why? (does life begin at conception)

Because of cell division. This is why I am adamant about not calling a fetus a child. Until it is born, it is not a child. We can pretend to change definitions, calling a fetus an "unborn child", but this is nothing more than emotional baggage.

> You should ask some adopted/orphaned kids/adults and see what they say.

Then to be fair, we should also ask some of the aborted fetus' and see what they say. My guess is most of them will have no comment.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Abortion [Re: DieCommie]
    #7997594 - 02/08/08 06:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Roe v Wade was bad legislation, no matter what you believe about abortion.

My opinion: A women has a right to do what she wants with her body. When is the baby no longer part of her body? To some only after it naturally exits the womb, to others at the moment of conception.




It is precisely that there exists, and always will, multiple answers to this question that the government should not favor one person's opinion over another's. Let the mother decide.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Offlinekriminalelement
"jesus wept."
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Re: Abortion [Re: Seuss]
    #7997642 - 02/08/08 07:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

My parents wanted me, but weren't equipped emotionally to raise a child. Now I feel fucked up and alienated.

So yes, I wish my parents had done the RESPONSIBLE thing and not brought me into the world. They weren't responsible raising me, the least they could have done was be responsible enough to know they shouldn't have kids.

I'm pro-choice and I'm VERY careful. BC, condoms, the WORKS, man. But if I ever get pregnant, even if I give it away, I'm at HIGH!!!!! risk for post-partum psychosis. Both of my grandmothers have psychotic disorders due to hormone adjustments. I would take life in prison if it meant being sane and knowing I made the right decision, for myself and the fetus.

But I guess things like THE HEALTH OF THE PERSON HAVING THE CHILD or the quality of future life doesn't matter to you. You're just interested on imposing your moralism on people who have different religious convictions. I DONT happen to believe life begins at conception. I believe it begins when certain glands in the brain develop which act as a "lightening rod" for the soul.

Sorry, but the ugly truth is that what you're saying makes you sound like a sexist pig. Women will (thank god) still be in control of their bodies. Quit trying to enforce your crackpot ideas on other people, and QUIT trying to get the government involved in this crap. It's devastating to women.

Even upper-level cardinals in the Catholic church have released statements saying that legal abortion is morally better than illegal abortion, because legal abortion eliminates the need for clothes hangers, croquet mallets, and staircases. But I don't think you really care about the humanitarian implications of what you're saying, you're just parroting some crap arguments you pulled out of a leaflet from whatever bible thumping backwater baptist church you attend.

When all you care about is your own morality, you are blinded to the truth and the desirable nature of government.


--------------------
While there is a lower class, I am in it
While there is a criminal element, I am of it
While there is a soul in prison, I am not free.

Eugene V Debs


Edited by kriminalelement (02/08/08 07:06 PM)


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: Abortion [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7997644 - 02/08/08 07:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

> the government should not favor one person's opinion over another's.

The way I word it: When the country is evenly split on a subject, then it is our duty to embrace freedom and protect the right of the individual to choose. (I'm talking in general, not just abortion.) As I said earlier, I am anti-abortion (finding the practice to be barbaric), but I have no right to force my moral values upon you.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Abortion [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7997658 - 02/08/08 07:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

There comes a point where the mother can no longer decide the fate of the life of her offspring and the child's life is protected by the law.

Its not a fun decision, and its going to piss people off, but there has to be a point where it goes from abortion to murder. That point does exist, and always will exist. Where that point lies is what is being debated.

In the past in some cultures the parents had the power of life and death over their children for their entire life. Even when their child was an adult it could be killed by the parents within the law. Other cultures deemed that never, not even while in the womb can a parent have the power to decide life or death. Currently in our society this point is somewhere between the second and third trimester.

Surely you are not claiming that the mother can decide life or death at any point. At what point does the govt. step in and say you cant decide? The govt. and the people have to make that decision. You cannot ignore it.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Abortion [Re: DieCommie]
    #7997670 - 02/08/08 07:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

> At what point does the govt. step in and say you cant decide?

At the point where the fetus can survive on it's own without the aid of the mother. Traditionally, this would be at birth. However, with modern medicine, things get a little murky.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinekriminalelement
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Re: Abortion [Re: DieCommie]
    #7997672 - 02/08/08 07:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

At what point does the govt. step in and say you cant decide?




When the fetus is viable outside the womb


--------------------
While there is a lower class, I am in it
While there is a criminal element, I am of it
While there is a soul in prison, I am not free.

Eugene V Debs


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
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Re: Abortion [Re: kriminalelement]
    #7997942 - 02/08/08 08:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

kriminalelement said:
Quote:

At what point does the govt. step in and say you cant decide?




When the fetus is viable outside the womb




When it tastes good.


--------------------


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: Abortion [Re: Minstrel]
    #7998298 - 02/08/08 10:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The only thing worse than an aborted fetus is an unwanted child. However, abortions are bad and abortions used like birth control are worse. So how about secretly sterilizing women during their second abortion? You vemen get one chance. :blush:

Also, only the woman should have the power to keep or abort the fetus because it is her body. But the male should be able to request she get an abortion. If chooses to keep it, the male should have no legal responsibility to the child.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Abortion [Re: d33p]
    #7998496 - 02/08/08 11:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I am 110% in favor of abortion.

I am absolutely immune to all talk of when life begins, or what constitutes a person, or the definition of a fetus.

It just does not matter one whit to me.

The only thing that matters is if you can tell another person what to do with their body. I do not see how it is in any way, shape, or form moral or right for a government to tell a woman that she *MUST* carry a fetus around with her for the next 9 months, her personal feelings on the matter being completely irrelevant.

Who is government to make this decision?

I believe Roe v. Wade was adjudicated correctly. While nearly everyone agrees that there are or should be limits to the power of the Federal government, I believe it is right and proper for the Federal government to act to prevent the usurpation of a person's rights by the state. The right of the states to pass laws banning this and that is not inviolate. The Federal government would certainly step in and stop a state like Mississippi from passing a law banning black people from having their tonsils removed. It is a prejudicial law.

So how can you tell a pregnant woman that she *HAS* to have a baby? Does the government know what is best for that woman?

Really?

When people talk about politics, they often mention certain issues as "Deal-Breakers" for them. Issues that if a politician were on the wrong side of that they could never vote for that politician. Abortion is that issue for me. I can not, will not, and could not ever vote a politician that was Pro-Life.

It is absolutely wrong to me.

And for the Ron Paul supporters out there, letting the states decide the issue is the EXACT SAME THING as banning abortion. Trying to paint it as otherwise is a blatant falsehood.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineSmackshadow
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Re: Abortion [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7998693 - 02/09/08 12:11 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Roe vs. Wade is actually a good ruling. It guarantees the right of choice. In fact, I am some what in a quandary about why any pro-life person would want it over turned. It single handedly prevents a situation like China has where the government has the right to say "You MUST have an abortion" With Roe vs. Wade that will never happen.

Not to bore you with anecdotal, but my grandmother worked in a Catholic Hospital, a place abortion was specifically prohibited. But on a fairly regular basis pregnant mothers would go visit these two "Specialist" doctors on the top floor, and would have "Spontaneous Miscarriages" Everyone in the Hospital knew what was going on. My point is that if the Catholic Church couldn't stop abortion in its own hospitals what makes you think that our government can do any better?

More over if we say that fetus' are children and have rights, then is a pregnant woman guilty of child endangerment for taking an aspirin two days after conception? If an expecting mother is arrested and sent to prison then does the fetus have the right to sue for false imprisonment? Every time a woman has their period should they be expected to search the tampon for a bundle of cells in order to fulfill the legal duty to report a dead person? My point is that our legal system is set upon the principals that life starts at birth. Changing that seems arbitrary and capricious to me.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Abortion [Re: Smackshadow]
    #7998711 - 02/09/08 12:15 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Good point.

There is no way to stop women from having abortions. You can make the practice illegal and prevent women from *safely* having abortions. But you will not eliminate the practice.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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