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Offlinemilkman
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cop intruding
    #7996546 - 02/08/08 02:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

k this is hypothetical and hasn't happened but i was wondering if im licensed to bare arms and a police officer comes into my home warrant less and unwanted can i shot him or what will happen if i ask him to leave and he refuses then attack/shot him


Edited by milkman (02/08/08 02:44 PM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: cop intruding [Re: milkman]
    #7996589 - 02/08/08 02:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

complicated, most likely


if your state's got the castle doctrine shit the NRA and others want, and you can prove the cop didn't identify himself or you didn't know or shouldn't have known about it, you can prolly get off


it all comes down to what you knew or should have known at the time you shot him, and most likely whether a reasonable person would have feared for his life, unless your state's got the castle doctrine shit where you can defend your home under all circumstances w/ deadly force


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Offlinemilkman
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Re: cop intruding [Re: johnm214]
    #7996609 - 02/08/08 03:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

castle doctrine sounds nice thanks

what if they idetify them selfs and are on your property in your house ethier or and have no warrant how would i make them leave or who could i call

http://www.gunlaws.com/FloridaCastleDoctrine.htm

yay


Edited by milkman (02/08/08 03:04 PM)


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OfflineChemy
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Re: cop intruding *DELETED* [Re: johnm214]
    #7996611 - 02/08/08 03:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

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Offlinemilkman
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Re: cop intruding [Re: Chemy]
    #7996629 - 02/08/08 03:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

well i was thinkin that i would call 911 and demand the captain or something but im thinking to far into this situation thanks for the info though

anyone know how old you have to be to obtain a gun license in florida ive read 18 but that was not from a .gov site so im not sure


Edited by milkman (02/08/08 03:06 PM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: cop intruding [Re: milkman]
    #7996644 - 02/08/08 03:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

milkman said:
castle doctrine sounds nice thanks

what if they idetify them selfs and are on your property in your house ethier or and have no warrant how would i make them leave or who could i call

http://www.gunlaws.com/FloridaCastleDoctrine.htm

yay




in this case, I doubt you can shoot them even if the law would allow it for a private party.


When push comes to shove, you can't do much.

If you want to stop that shit, your gonna have to take em on in court, civilly. Probably not much you can do. Even if the law would allow you to defend yourself, the cop will claim he was there on official buisness, and then arrest you for assault on an officer.

Better to just refuse cooperation and sue em once they're done w/ you.


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OfflineChemy
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Re: cop intruding *DELETED* [Re: milkman]
    #7996673 - 02/08/08 03:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

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Offlinemilkman
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Re: cop intruding [Re: Chemy]
    #7996688 - 02/08/08 03:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

hmm sounds good thansk for the info


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: cop intruding [Re: milkman]
    #7996716 - 02/08/08 03:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

you would probably find out later that he was there legally, and would then be eaten alive by the court system in short order.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: cop intruding [Re: Chemy]
    #7997296 - 02/08/08 05:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I have no idea who you can call on the cops, can't dial 911.




Actually you can dial 911 on the cops, and in many instances its a really good idea.

If a cop is doing something illegal and abusing his authority, dial 911 immediately and report it. All the audio will be recorded once you are connected, so be sure to describe exactly what the cop is doing so it all goes into the permanent record.

Quote:

STILLWATER, Minn. (AP) - A Maplewood police officer was charged with several felonies for allegedly falsely imprisoning a man and threatening to beat him, only to let him go when the man called 911 on his cell phone from the back of a squad car.

Washington County Attorney Doug Johnson said Friday that his office had charged Officer Jason Patrick Marino, 31, with kidnapping, terroristic threats, misconduct and several other counts stemming from the incident on April 28, 2006.

At about 1:30 a.m. that morning, Marino allegedly handcuffed and detained a 21-year-old man in his squad car without arresting him, after the younger man approached Marino and another officer at a SuperAmerica store to ask for a ride to Interstate 94. Once in the car, Marino threatened several times to beat up the 21-year-old, according to the criminal complaint.

Marino then drove out of Maplewood and into neighboring Washington County, but left the man by the side of the road after realizing that he was talking to someone on his cell phone, according to authorities. A Washington County deputy picked the man up a short time later, and reported that he was crying and out of breath with fear.

"The behavior of Marino is something that you see on fictional television shows, but in 33 years of prosecuting I have never seen this type of police behavior actually happen," Johnson said in a press release.

Marino did not have a listed telephone number. A telephone call to Johnson's office seeking the name of Marino's attorney was not immediately returned.

According to the criminal complaint, Marino told Washington County investigators that the 21-year-old asked to be taken to jail. Marino initially intended to oblige, he said, but changed his mind and left the man on the side of the road.

Marino has been on paid administrative leave since the day of the incident, Maplewood Police Chief Dave Thomalla said. He had not been brought into custody and had not yet appeared in court on the charges.




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Offlineb0b gnarley
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Re: cop intruding [Re: wilshire]
    #7997322 - 02/08/08 05:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
you would probably find out later that he was there legally, and would then be eaten alive by the court system in short order.


Shoot him anyways. :cop2:


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Offlinemilkman
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Re: cop intruding [Re: b0b gnarley]
    #8005450 - 02/10/08 04:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

is a shotgun considered a rifle?


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Re: cop intruding [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8005540 - 02/10/08 05:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Don't open the door till you see a warrent. And you'll be fine. If he forces his way in without a warrent then its breaking and entering and him being a cop don't mean shit. Çuz he aint shit with out a warrent.


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Re: cop intruding [Re: Cubie]
    #8005562 - 02/10/08 05:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

that m4 sounds like a great idea thanks for the info bit pricy though


Edited by milkman (02/10/08 05:25 PM)


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Re: cop intruding [Re: milkman]
    #8005678 - 02/10/08 05:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Chemy I gotta disagree with you about the shotgun. I just got a mossburg tatical shotgun and it will do the job just fine. Mine holds 8 shots with one in the chamber. I use one buck shot then 5 bird shot then 2 more buckshots. I assure you I could clear a house out without reloading.


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Offlinemilkman
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Re: cop intruding [Re: Cubie]
    #8005694 - 02/10/08 05:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

shotties are alright in a house id think case of the close range but then again its easier to fuck up a door/wall with that but if you get a semi auto rifle and practice a bit youll only need on bullet and no spread


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OfflineChemy
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Re: cop intruding *DELETED* [Re: Cubie]
    #8005707 - 02/10/08 05:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

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--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!


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Re: cop intruding [Re: Cubie]
    #8006008 - 02/10/08 07:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Cubie said:
Don't open the door till you see a warrent.
Yes

And you'll be fine. If he forces his way in without a warrent then its breaking and entering and him being a cop don't mean shit. Çuz he aint shit with out a warrent.
NO




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Re: cop intruding [Re: johnm214]
    #8006053 - 02/10/08 07:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

How?


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: cop intruding [Re: johnm214]
    #8009460 - 02/11/08 04:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Cubie said:
And you'll be fine. If he forces his way in without a warrent then its breaking and entering and him being a cop don't mean shit. Çuz he aint shit with out a warrent.
NO








Why not? Do police have some kind of special immunity from breaking and entering laws while they are on the job?


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Offlineb0b gnarley
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Re: cop intruding [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8009492 - 02/11/08 04:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Have you ever dealt with police?
They do what the fuck they want.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: cop intruding [Re: b0b gnarley]
    #8009574 - 02/11/08 04:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

> Have you ever dealt with police?

Many times.

> They do what the fuck they want.

They often do have that attitude, which is why I think they might sometimes be reckless enough to open themselves up to a breaking and entering charge.

I would call 911 on the intruders and take as many pictures as possible.

If you report a crime the police have to process the report, they can't just tell you to go away.


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Offlineb0b gnarley
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Re: cop intruding [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8009691 - 02/11/08 05:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

That wasn't meant to be a douche post, but in my experiences with cops, they tend to do what they want and make up an excuse for it in court.

I was 16 at the time. Few years ago, there was a false call made that me and my brother were being held hostage with a shotgun by my dad. Carrying no warrant, 25 sheriffs break in with AR-15's and tear the whole house apart, only to find no gun.

They continued to raid the house to find an ounce of pot in my room along with $150, a scale, and bags. They slap me with marijuana for sales and take me to juvenile hall for a week.

They found 2 vicodens in my brother's room, and still charge him with it. He went to jail for 4 days.


Fucken pigs.:crankey:


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: cop intruding [Re: b0b gnarley]
    #8009739 - 02/11/08 05:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

b0b gnarley said:
That wasn't meant to be a douche post, but in my experiences with cops, they tend to do what they want and make up an excuse for it in court.

I was 16 at the time. Few years ago, there was a false call made that me and my brother were being held hostage with a shotgun by my dad. Carrying no warrant, 25 sheriffs break in with AR-15's and tear the whole house apart, only to find no gun.

They continued to raid the house to find an ounce of pot in my room along with $150, a scale, and bags. They slap me with marijuana for sales and take me to juvenile hall for a week.

They found 2 vicodens in my brother's room, and still charge him with it. He went to jail for 4 days.


Fucken pigs.:crankey:





Did you try to fight the charges or just plead guilty? 

I would have tried to fight that one, a motion to suppress the evidence should be effective if it turns out that there never was any hostage situation.

I am aware that one prank call can cause a police raid, and I don't think you would be able to get the police in any trouble since they would have a recording of the call to prove that someone may have been in danger.

If they don't have evidence like that and break into your house anyway....well I am waiting to see what johnm214 will say about that situation.

Certainly if you tell then you are going to get them in trouble for breaking in, they will make something up.  But if the police report is already written and it doesn't give a good reason, I wonder if things could be different.


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Re: cop intruding [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8010278 - 02/11/08 07:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Cubie said:
And you'll be fine. If he forces his way in without a warrent then its breaking and entering and him being a cop don't mean shit. Çuz he aint shit with out a warrent.
NO








Why not?  Do police have some kind of special immunity from breaking and entering laws while they are on the job?




well sort of.

1.  You have no right to have the police charged with a crime.  That is a decision for the prosecutor/grand jury.  And just cuz the police were breaking the law doesn't mean you can shoot them or sue them.



2.  There are "exigent circumstances" exceptions to the warrant requirment for home searches.  Generally either hot pursuit or eminent danger considerations.  How'd you like to shoot a cop, and even if you don't get killed by the others, find out he was acting on a credible tip that you were slaughtering an elementery school class in your room?  In that case the officer would have been justified in his intrusion, and your right to shoot him would likely evaporate- even if you had one to begin with, which I doubt (besides, its not nice).  See the response below for authority

3.  A judge and a jury is likely to have more sympathy for an officer on the job even if their is no legal rational.


Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

b0b gnarley said:


I was 16 at the time. Few years ago, there was a false call made that me and my brother were being held hostage with a shotgun by my dad. Carrying no warrant, 25 sheriffs break in with AR-15's and tear the whole house apart, only to find no gun.

They continued to raid the house to find an ounce of pot in my room along with $150, a scale, and bags. They slap me with marijuana for sales and take me to juvenile hall for a week.

They found 2 vicodens in my brother's room, and still charge him with it. He went to jail for 4 days.


Fucken pigs.:crankey:





Did you try to fight the charges or just plead guilty? 

I would have tried to fight that one, a motion to suppress the evidence should be effective if it turns out that there never was any hostage situation.

If they don't have evidence like that and break into your house anyway....well I am waiting to see what johnm214 will say about that situation.

Certainly if you tell then you are going to get them in trouble for breaking in, they will make something up.  But if the police report is already written and it doesn't give a good reason, I wonder if things could be different.





If the police can come up with a rational basis for why they believed an eminent danger to the life of an indivual existed, they can break in without warrant.  Whether or not a reaonsable person would have felt their was a signifigant danger is a question for the judge when ruling on a supresion motion.

I am sure that in this case they were justified in the break in, and almost certain they were justified in the search (they could claim that they felt their might be others hiding in the residence that were the source of the tip about the hostage situation). 

It may be signifigant if the drugs were not in plain view, and were in a small drawer or something, which could then be argued that their was no reason to search that drawer without warrant, as the drawer could not harbor a person, and the premisis could be secured/vacated untill a ruling on a warrant application was had, but I doubt that this is a point you would prevail on.  Certainly the case cited below doesn't provide that small spaces are immune from search, and I'm not aware of any other case dealing with the exignet circumstances exception that so distinguishes a small drawer, but perhaps it exists.

Either way, even if some authority does exist that a drawer search was improper, you could only have suppressed that evidence.  You'd never succeed on a lawsut for damages, as this is a very nuanced point.


"...neither the entry without warrant to search for the robber, nor the search for him without warrant was invalid. Under the circumstances of this case, "the exigencies of the situation made that course imperative." McDonald v. United States, 335 U. S. 451, 456. The police were informed that an armed robbery had taken place, and that the suspect had entered 2111 Cocoa Lane less than five minutes before they reached it. They acted reasonably when they entered the house and began to search for a man of the description they had been given and for weapons which he had used in the robbery or might use against them. The Fourth Amendment does not require police officers to delay in the course of an investigation" See: Warden v. Hayden, 387 U.S. 294 (1967)
http://supreme.justia.com/us/387/294/case.html


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Re: cop intruding [Re: johnm214]
    #8010347 - 02/11/08 07:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

And for general cases "exigent circumstances" when a warrant may not be required for search of a residence:

Quote:

There are exceptional circumstances in which, on balancing the need for effective law enforcement against the

Page 333 U. S. 15

right of privacy, it may be contended that a magistrate's warrant for search may be dispensed with. But this is not such a case. No reason is offered for not obtaining a search warrant except the inconvenience to the officers and some slight delay necessary to prepare papers and present the evidence to a magistrate. These are never very convincing reasons and, in these circumstances, certainly are not enough to bypass the constitutional requirement. No suspect was fleeing or likely to take flight. The search was of permanent premises, not of a movable vehicle. No evidence or contraband was threatened with removal or destruction, except perhaps the fumes which we suppose in time will disappear. But they were not capable at any time of being reduced to possession for presentation to court. The evidence of their existence before the search was adequate and the testimony of the officers to that effect would not perish from the delay of getting a warrant.


Johnson v. United States, 333 U.S. 10 (1948)
http://supreme.justia.com/us/333/10/case.html


while this is likely not authoritative, as it was dicta concerning an issue not before the court, it is clearly instructive as to the charecter of circumstances that may rise to the level of a permissive warrantless search of a residence.

(the case concerned officers smelling opium in the hallway and then searching a room and arresting its occupant on that basis)


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Re: cop intruding [Re: johnm214]
    #8011591 - 02/12/08 12:45 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

It may be signifigant if the drugs were not in plain view, and were in a small drawer or something, which could then be argued that their was no reason to search that drawer without warrant, as the drawer could not harbor a person, and the premisis could be secured/vacated untill a ruling on a warrant application was had, but I doubt that this is a point you would prevail on. Certainly the case cited below doesn't provide that small spaces are immune from search, and I'm not aware of any other case dealing with the exignet circumstances exception that so distinguishes a small drawer, but perhaps it exists.




If the reason they entered was that someone else prank called the cops and said there was some kind of hostage situation, wouldn't that make any evidence they collect suppressible?

Shouldn't the fruit of the poisonous tree / exclusionary rule apply here?


Edited by Alan Rockefeller (02/12/08 01:02 AM)


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Re: cop intruding [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8013735 - 02/12/08 04:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

It may be signifigant if the drugs were not in plain view, and were in a small drawer or something, which could then be argued that their was no reason to search that drawer without warrant, as the drawer could not harbor a person, and the premisis could be secured/vacated untill a ruling on a warrant application was had, but I doubt that this is a point you would prevail on. Certainly the case cited below doesn't provide that small spaces are immune from search, and I'm not aware of any other case dealing with the exignet circumstances exception that so distinguishes a small drawer, but perhaps it exists.




If the reason they entered was that someone else prank called the cops and said there was some kind of hostage situation, wouldn't that make any evidence they collect suppressible?

Shouldn't the fruit of the poisonous tree / exclusionary rule apply here?




As to the entrance into the building without a warrant, the only factor that mattered was the police's good faith belief that exigent circumstances existed compelling them to act.

That those circumstances didn't exist doesn't matter- at least I've seen no authority that it does.

So the entry was legal, but the search, if in a small compartment, might not have been- especially if their were no people in that room- and thus their was no safety consideration.


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Re: cop intruding [Re: Chemy]
    #8029210 - 02/15/08 08:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Chemy said:
Quote:

Cubie said:
Chemy I gotta disagree with you about the shotgun. I just got a mossburg tatical shotgun and it will do the job just fine. Mine holds 8 shots with one in the chamber. I use one buck shot then 5 bird shot then 2 more buckshots. I assure you I could clear a house out without reloading.



I don't think you have any experience with shotguns to say that, at close range and with birdshot a shotgun will not "clear a house", unless the people that broke into your house get scared.

1S1K, and a well placed 5.56 will do that.

The preferred firearm for home defense IMO is a Springfield Armory or Sig 1911 with 185+P hydrashocks.



1911 with hydrashocks will pwn all. The bird shot wont go through three walls and into your toddler nieghbors' brain. THen again niether will a good fragmenting hollow point. Read the book "black water" all the mercinaries were amazed when a hydrashock kill a guy from a shot to the ass. 1911's pwn all tho.


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