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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Quote:
Virus_with_Shoes said:Any other ideas? When we do eventually leave, Iraq is destined to fall back into sectarian warfare... the only way that region has ever been peaceful is under a strongman or an empire. It's prolonging the inevitable.
That is the pessimistic view, yes. Listen, there is no doubt that most of the countries in the Middle-East are run by dictators or strong-men. But that just as certainly does not mean that a democratic government under the rule of law CANNOT exist. You cannot get one from the other. Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence.
Regardless of what you believe about American puppet-mastery, there is a group in Iraq trying very hard to establish a viable state out of what they have. No, it is not a historically, culturally, or religiously homogenus population. But that does not preclude success on the part of those people, does it? More has been done with less, hasn't it? And they have the hugely influential financial support of the most powerful country in the world. Don't you think they might have at least a little chance of success?
It's our problem, whether you like it or not, because of what we've done to their country. I didn't want to be there either, but we are and you cannot do anything about that now. We have wrecked their country, and if they are asking for a bit of time to get their shit together before we loose them to the tender mercies of politics in the Middle East I don't see how you can in any good conscience not give it to them.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
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Quote:
That is the pessimistic view, yes. Listen, there is no doubt that most of the countries in the Middle-East are run by dictators or strong-men. But that just as certainly does not mean that a democratic government under the rule of law CANNOT exist. You cannot get one from the other. Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence.
Now let's look at things realistically for a second. The state of Iraq was artificially imposed on to the map of the Middle East by the British Empire following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire following World War I. It is a total clusterfuck of Sunni, Shia and Kurds. The state that exists today is shaped the way it is because of British oil interests and primary loyalties still lie on ethnic boundaries, not along national boundaries (think of the tribalism vs. nationalism problem. that came from European powers carving up Africa in the 1880s). Iraqi Kurds are more loyal to their Kurdish brethren in Turkey and Iran and still seek to form their own nation of Kurdistan, which was promised around the same time that Iraq was created. Sunnis and Shia are more loyal to their respective diasporas and have feuded for centuries over certain theological questions.
This is not a recipe for success. The only semblance of nationalism that exists in that country now comes from the shared sentiment that Iraqis want us the FUCK out of their country! Imagine how you would feel if there was a foreign army patrolling your streets.
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Regardless of what you believe about American puppet-mastery, there is a group in Iraq trying very hard to establish a viable state out of what they have.
What I believe about American puppet-mastery? What the hell are you even talking about? You assume too much. Like I said before, Iraqi nationalism is more of a resistance to being occupied than any sort of brotherhood felt amongst the disparate ethnic groups. Iraq as we know it has no future as a stable, multi-ethnic democracy, especially not if the US is still lingering around in their country. The only hope that this region has is to fragment into separate states along ethnic lines in a similar fashion to what the Balkan states did following the collapse of Yugoslavia. Iraq is a failed state in every sense of the word: this is not pessimism, it is reality.
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It's our problem, whether you like it or not, because of what we've done to their country. I didn't want to be there either, but we are and you cannot do anything about that now. We have wrecked their country, and if they are asking for a bit of time to get their shit together before we loose them to the tender mercies of politics in the Middle East I don't see how you can in any good conscience not give it to them.
We've discussed this in another thread and the conclusion we reached is that violence and attacks on US troops are steadily increasing the longer the US stays in the country. Are you suggesting we stay in Iraq indefinitely and pay the price in American blood? Unfortunately this is the choice we are left with: more American and Iraqi blood if we stay or a whole lot more Iraqi blood if we go. You sound like someone who would have supported sticking around in Vietnam for another 10 years to straighten things out.
To take another lesson from Vietnam I don't think it would be a bad idea if the Congress started making deadlines and drawing down troop numbers (like they did in Vietnam) while getting Iraqi security forces to take over. At that point we could gradually hand it off to the Iraqis and get our coveted "peace with honour" to use an appropriate phrase.
Final note: guess what happened when Congress grew a pair of testicles and rightfully took hold of our foreign policy in the early 70s? They helped bring our troops home.
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Edited by Virus_with_Shoes (02/07/08 09:38 AM)
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BrAiN
Art Fag


Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
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I think we should pull out of iraq immediately, but the night before, give all out soldiers spraycans and have the spray "AL QUEDA SUCKS LLAMA BALLS" all over Iraq before they leave
That'll show em.
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Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
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Re: OBAMA CLAIMS DELEGATE LEAD [Re: BrAiN]
#7990893 - 02/07/08 09:28 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
BrAiN said: I think we should pull out of iraq immediately, but the night before, give all out soldiers spraycans and have the spray "AL QUEDA SUCKS LLAMA BALLS" all over Iraq before they leave
That'll show em.
         
Awesome!
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hazey



Registered: 01/20/08
Posts: 2,277
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Quote:
Virus_with_Shoes said:
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I can live with Mccain... compared to Hillary
Can you live with staying in Iraq indefinitely?
can you live with big government up your ass with a microscope for the next 70+ years? that's what clinton wants, think back to her book It Takes A Village...
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Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
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Re: OBAMA CLAIMS DELEGATE LEAD [Re: Prisoner#1]
#7993476 - 02/07/08 07:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
Virus_with_Shoes said:
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I can live with Mccain... compared to Hillary
Can you live with staying in Iraq indefinitely?
can you live with big government up your ass with a microscope for the next 70+ years? that's what clinton wants, think back to her book It Takes A Village...
Are you seriously implying in that statement that the Republicans are for small government. The Democrats=big government and Republicans= small government sound bite you're referring to is a total crock. Let's review... under this Republican regime for the past 8 years the federal bureaucracy has exploded with government spending reaching astronomical levels. In fact, the "fiscally conservative" small-government Bush administration has outspent both "tax-and-spend" liberal presidents Clinton and Carter. How's that for small government?
Here's some figures from only 2003 and the figures are obscene. They are much higher today. http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3184
It isn't just the defense budget that accounts for the rise in government spending, it's also things like education and labour, which have experienced 70 and 65 per cent increases respectively. Some small government, right?
Let's not even mention the NSA wiretapping and domestic spying along with the Patriot Act. It appears that the government's microscope is already planted firmly in the collective asshole of the American people.
Edited by Virus_with_Shoes (02/07/08 07:49 PM)
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Quote:
Virus_with_Shoes said: Are you seriously implying in that statement that the Republicans are for small government.
I'm stating that they're all for big government, increasing powers of that body and stripping more right, I've referred to nothing but a book, it's going to get worse because htat microscope has sharp corners
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Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
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Re: OBAMA CLAIMS DELEGATE LEAD [Re: Prisoner#1]
#7993586 - 02/07/08 07:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
Virus_with_Shoes said: Are you seriously implying in that statement that the Republicans are for small government.
I'm stating that they're all for big government, increasing powers of that body and stripping more right, I've referred to nothing but a book, it's going to get worse because htat microscope has sharp corners
I'm in total agreement with you on that. Both sides of the aisle are into the idea of big government and like I said earlier both Hillary and Mccain would make shitty presidents. I wasn't defending Hillary. All I was saying is that I'd probably choose her over Mccain because I can't even begin to fathom how bad it would be to have Republicans in charge of the country for another 4 years.
You're also right about that government microscope getting more and more intrusive but I hardly think that Mccain would reverse that trend any more than Hillary.
Anyone else get the feeling we're going to be in 1984 territory in a few years?
Edited by Virus_with_Shoes (02/09/08 08:22 PM)
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Cubie
Moderator




Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 8,840
Loc: Down the rabbit hole...
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
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Man partys don't mean shit anymore. All their policys and personalitys are differnt. Were fuct with Hillary or McCain. Pray for obama he's our only chance. China was just on the news spying hardcore on us like always. Russia hates us and has a KGB president. North Korea is always wanting to blow us up. Japan probley would love to drop a few nukes on us, they just turned our navy away from port during a bad storm. Not to mention the terrorists... Well, were gonna get fuct up eventuley anyways. Just like Rome and Greece just now the stakes are raised. Nukes are gonna kill us all. We doomed ourselves figuring that shit out. Well not 'we' but the dumbasses who have them now. Bleh I'm stoned
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Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
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Re: OBAMA CLAIMS DELEGATE LEAD [Re: Cubie]
#8002335 - 02/09/08 08:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Cubie
Moderator




Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 8,840
Loc: Down the rabbit hole...
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
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Hell yea he owned today
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bradmassive
KingOfTheHill

Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 866
Loc: VA
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It pisses me off the way everyone is saying how Hilary is prolly gonna win. I don't know why anyone would be that sure about this yet. I personally think Obama is gonna kick ass all over the place and then piss all over the republicans to top it off. This is what I hope.
Yes We Can!
Obama 08
-------------------- "In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson "Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -
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TheCow
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 4,790
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Re: OBAMA CLAIMS DELEGATE LEAD [Re: lonestar2004]
#8005440 - 02/10/08 04:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Obama just won Maine. Not sure what the total delegate numbers are now as no website has posted it yet
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Re: OBAMA CLAIMS DELEGATE LEAD [Re: TheCow]
#8005470 - 02/10/08 05:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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If he won by 20%, which are the numbers I saw, it should be something like..15/10 or 15/11.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Which is not a substantial amount of delegates, but you'll take them where you can get them I suppose...
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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Clinton Secretly Visits Edwards; Obama Next
ABC News has learned that Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., met with former Sen. John Edwards secretly at his home in Chapel Hill, North Carolina on Thursday. Clinton's rival for the Democratic presidential nomination, Illionis Sen. Barack Obama will meet with Edwards on Monday, sources say.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/02/abc-news-eloise.html
Damn i think Edwards only has about 26 delegates.....
she must be desperate!
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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whatsgrimace
Stranger


Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 5,239
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Re: OBAMA CLAIMS DELEGATE LEAD [Re: lonestar2004]
#8006434 - 02/10/08 08:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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It's probably going to come down to:
Edwards: I'll let you have my delegates if you let me be your vice. Clinton: k mang
That or she'll just pay him off.
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Re: OBAMA CLAIMS DELEGATE LEAD [Re: whatsgrimace]
#8006818 - 02/10/08 10:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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His delegates aren't shit.
They are less than insignificant.
Not nearly enough to parlay into a VP slot.
Plus, there are the connotations of 2004 which I'm sure Hillary would want to avoid.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: OBAMA CLAIMS DELEGATE LEAD [Re: Phred]
#8007200 - 02/11/08 12:01 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said: That's a no-brainer. McCain will fuck y'all the least.
Not the perfect Republican candidate, for sure, but still miles better than either of the two Dems.
I'm not buying that one bit. McCain will fuck us all the least? That's ridiculuous, the man is emotionally unstable. While I have respect for the tragic experience of being a prisoner-of-war, it only goes to show that the man has had tragic experiences related to war, and having him be the commander-in-chief at a time when we still have forces in the Middle East and the international community is very tense right now from America's intervention in that region, its more than scary. 
I have much less respect for the man being a prisoner-of-war when he stills propagates the positions and the ideaology that produces prisoners-of-war in the first place. McCain strikes me as a man that inflicts suffering upon himself and doesn't realize how, so he perpetuates the same suffering further. At a time when we're about ready to fall into a deep recession if there is no effective leadership by a President, dark times, I don't want someone that won't allow us to transcend the unnecessary suffering.
I think it would be a detriment to the evolution of humankind on this planet to have McCain as President of the United States. Obama is the only person suitably placed to truly lead this country, and, subsequently, the planet, to a new age of prosperity, peace, and sustainability. Not only is he very capable of winning and having the support of Congress to enact his ideas, but the ideas are very good ones that seek to advance the evolution of this planet.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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