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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Emptiness? (Buddhism)
#7982593 - 02/05/08 12:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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HH the Dalai Lama says "through cultivating insight into emptiness it is possible to eliminate all our mental afflictions"
Does this mean that basically seeing the impermanence of everything its possible to be free of attachment? That because everything is impermanent & ever changing everything is empty?
Emptiness is without duality so is pure, so realisation of emtiness is closely related to Nirvana?
Have i misunderstood emptiness?
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Edited by Chronic7 (02/05/08 01:24 PM)
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im_on_a_boat
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Re: Emptiness? [Re: Chronic7]
#7982712 - 02/05/08 01:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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i mean you made a good point, but i dont think that is the message that he is trying to convey in that quote..
i'm interpreting more like..
eliminate all our mental afflictions = clear your mind cultivating insight into emptiness = being without a true identity like with their teachings..
so you must clear your mind to be without a true identity (which i assume is what is a goal in their religion?)
i dont really know much about buddhism..
but i think this quote can be applied to what you're saying and also like the ability to focus one's mind can have great power, even if it's to clear it.. it can also go the other way, to focus on a single thing.
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jonathanseagull
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Re: Emptiness? (Buddhism) [Re: Chronic7]
#7982834 - 02/05/08 02:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Emptiness is translated from sunyata (pronounced Shunyata, because I don't know how to get that little accent above the 's'). Sunyata not only refers to impermanence, but interrelatedness. Meaning your desk doesn't have the soul of a desk (anatman, or no atman, atman being the Hindu Brahman within). The desk is made out of wood that was made out of a tree which was made out of a seed, soil nutrients, sunlight, etc. That's the idea. Nothing has a permanent essence that exists soley by it's own. Everything depends on everything, and that includes people, inanimate objects, and all that good stuff.
I can't say how it is possible to eliminate all of our mental afflictions because I haven't done it. But I have gotten rid of a lot of problems and gained insight into more subtle ones of mine. It helps you see the absurdity of grasping, to things and feelings and ideas, when you realize there is no "you" to get offended, horny, jealous, etc. Of course, there is a you, let's not get into semantics. I refer to a soul and a permanent self. The "you" you think you are is assembled from the Five Skandhas (aggregates), which goes back to sunyata.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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Lion
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Re: Emptiness? (Buddhism) [Re: Chronic7]
#7982882 - 02/05/08 02:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Emptiness is without duality
Emptiness is dualistic, with fullness being its opposite. One could say that emptiness is that out of which all conceivable forms arise - physical forms, thought-forms, the five senses, etc.; this probably ties in to what jonathanseagull is referring to with the emptiness of the five skandhas, and Sunyata.
Emptiness in the way the Dalai Lama is talking about it is, to me, the practical observation that whatever arises in time passes, so abiding in emptiness - observing one's imposition of judgment upon a neutral reality, one's conditioned reactions to phenomena, and so forth - leads to a state of non-attachment which causes the natural luminosity of mind (citta) to shine through one's ego structure.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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dblaney
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Re: Emptiness? (Buddhism) [Re: Chronic7]
#7983202 - 02/05/08 04:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Have i misunderstood emptiness?
Yes.
Emptiness cannot be fully understood through the intellect or described with words.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Orbus
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Re: Emptiness? (Buddhism) [Re: dblaney]
#7983266 - 02/05/08 04:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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The chair, dog, self, etc, is empty = empty of inherent existence
In other words there are no autonomous self-contained entities at all. All apparent forms and things are nothing but the manifestation of interdependent relationships.
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------------------------------------------------------ Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts
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Lion
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Re: Emptiness? (Buddhism) [Re: Orbus]
#7983284 - 02/05/08 04:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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That is all intellectually graspable but falls short of experience itself. One cannot understand emptiness because... who is there to understand it? Does emptiness understand itself?
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Emptiness? (Buddhism) [Re: dblaney]
#7983290 - 02/05/08 04:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney said:
Quote:
Have i misunderstood emptiness?
Yes.
Emptiness cannot be fully understood through the intellect or described with words.
Then why is it named?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Lion
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Quote:
Then why is it named?
Why is anything named? Naming anything is attempting to point toward it. I am not my name and cannot be understood through it!
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Orbus
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Re: Emptiness? (Buddhism) [Re: Lion]
#7983303 - 02/05/08 04:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lion said: That is all intellectually graspable but falls short of experience itself. One cannot understand emptiness because... who is there to understand it? Does emptiness understand itself?
Absolutely right, that is just a conceptual understanding.
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------------------------------------------------------ Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Emptiness? (Buddhism) [Re: Lion]
#7983410 - 02/05/08 05:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I agree that you are not your name, but Names usually aren't mean to point toward anything. But for example, when someone mentions to me that they drank water, I KNOW what they're talking about. I know what water actually is, how it feels and that one of its properties it to satisfy thirst and keep me hydrated. I can't think that water can burn my hand if I spill some there simply because it contradicts the meaning of water.
I guess that what was trying to say is that perhaps a simple word just won't to when in comes to esoteric things. Simply because what one might call emptiness, other might interpret and being fullness. So how can someone say that their understanding of emptiness is wrong and in the same time say that it can't be described.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Lion
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: I agree that you are not your name, but Names usually aren't mean to point toward anything. But for example, when someone mentions to me that they drank water, I KNOW what they're talking about. I know what water actually is, how it feels and that one of its properties it to satisfy thirst and keep me hydrated. I can't think that water can burn my hand if I spill some there simply because it contradicts the meaning of water.
I guess that what was trying to say is that perhaps a simple word just won't to when in comes to esoteric things. Simply because what one might call emptiness, other might interpret and being fullness. So how can someone say that their understanding of emptiness is wrong and in the same time say that it can't be described.
You wouldn't know what the name "water" meant unless you had experienced its properties.
So imagine if the OP had said. "I've never experienced water, but I hear that it is a tasteless liquid which quenches thirst. So now is my understanding of water complete?" Well, you have a static intellectual understanding of it, but knowing that won't quench your thirst. The whole point is the water itself. I think that's what dblaney was getting at.
Actually I think we seem to be in agreement and are getting hung up on words and what not.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Emptiness? (Buddhism) [Re: Lion]
#7983509 - 02/05/08 05:22 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Actually I think we seem to be in agreement and are getting hung up on words and what not. 
Yes
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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dblaney
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Man that was the easiest philosophical discussion I've ever had! Didn't even have to say anything, Lion is right on the spot!
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Emptiness? (Buddhism) [Re: dblaney]
#7986494 - 02/06/08 12:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Is it really so ununderstandable ? If we bring the buddhist understanding down from a general view of 'emptiness' ? The 'general' view is not so ungraspable.
Emptiness is contextual. It refers to 'nonexistence' in a context. As it is contextual, it is not true only in itself. An empty glass contains air. An empty glass contains the possibility of being filled with whatever suits the emptiness of this context.
Emptiness is causal. If something was full before, the sudden 'emptiness' has normally severe consequences on the context. Simply regard a dried out river.
There the concept arose, but to bring it down on human contexts is quite the other step I am not able just right now in this moment 
Just two of my many thoughts ... Now, what is noncontextual nonexistence.
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