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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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What is spirituality?
#7979996 - 02/04/08 09:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Has anybody every felt like they possess dormant divine power that's only waiting escape from it's shell to be used at your own discretion? Does anybody else believe in destiny, and that everything is somehow meant to be?
My life has always felt like it was leading up to something; some point, some event, or something, I can't describe it, it's a feeling. Sometimes, I'll be somewhere (like school for instance), with an almost completely clear mind, and I notice that people seem distracted by something, like their mind is absorbing more useless information than their soul can handle. At times like these, I feel, infinite, in a way. I feel like telling everybody, in a humble manner, "What are we doing? Look at yourselves. We're dressing up in funny costumes that separate us into competing groups, we've each created funny characters, our egos, which also cause us to compete against each other. And for what? For sex? For money?". When I get this feeling, life feels like a dream, a dream that I control, and my body feels almost nonexistent, light and graceful, and as I observe myself moving, it feels like I am some kind of greater force manipulating my body. It feels like I can do absolutely anything, but I don't for fear of being arrested or institutionalized. As a result, those fears cloud up my clear mind and then I return back to "normal"; a human being with faced with a consciousness of infinite pre-conceived phrases talking, ruminating, and wondering about things that really don't matter, and just get in the way of me achieving the previously mentioned state of consciousness permanently.
Obviously, this sounds like I am a very strange person, but I really don't think so. I do have at least a subtle influence on people, so I guess I'm not a complete loser or anything. Sometimes it feels like I have to much influence on people, and that I am responsible for all the good and badness in the lives of people around me because I either harmed them directly in some way, or indirectly by not helping them open their minds and thus improving their lives.
I've recently started to rate people by classes, based on many criterion, but basically based on where they stand on society, and why; based on their efficiency. The people of the lower classes are easy to deal with, and are basically pawns that don't mean much in terms of competition. The higher classes are more difficult to deal with, and require more skill and composure to interact with. The lower classes are the masses and the higher classes are the noteworthy individuals. Also, it appears that the lower classes are more "brainwashed" by society, more closely attached to and less willing to escape from their conditioning, whereas the higher class appears to be more independent, more original.
When I'm around the lower classes, it feels like they all notice my "vibe" and that they are in awe of it. Remember, this is only a feeling, but I have heard someone go "Whoah! Who is that?" in a very wondrously amazed tone. I know I don't behave in the way the lower classes do because they way they behave is based on a societal mold that I have, to the best of my ability, broken out of. As a result, it is only obvious that people are going to stare at me, and in a way, it kind of feels like that is some kind of mechanism to try to prevent people like me from achieving higher levels of humanness.
I'd like to write more but unfortunately, this thread is turning into a rant and I am forgetting the reason I wrote this at all. Basically, I'd like to ask, has anyone ever met anyone who experiences any of these kinds of things, or have your yourself experienced these things? Is there really an inherent Social Caste, and if there is, where do you see yourself in it?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Orbus
The Liberator
Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 85
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#7980127 - 02/04/08 09:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- ------------------------------------------------------ Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Orbus]
#7980158 - 02/04/08 09:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thanks, man.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#7981873 - 02/05/08 09:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Has anybody every felt like they possess dormant divine power that's only waiting escape from it's shell to be used at your own discretion?
NO! I'm fully actualized.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Boots
Disenchanted
Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1,137
Loc: Northwood, Ohio, U.S.A.
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Icelander]
#7981915 - 02/05/08 09:44 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't believe in destiny nor some dormant divine power, but I do believe I am destined for greatness.
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#7981917 - 02/05/08 09:45 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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for me spirituality is realizing our conditioning, the process that has been integrated into our minds through years and years of external babble. we heard the external babble so much that an internal babbling took form. we keep this internal babble running by identifying with babble in the outside world. without this external babble it may feel as though we are going insane. take an average joe who watches tv 4 hours a day and put him into a forest alone for 3 months and see what i mean.
spirituality for me is being aware of this internal process that is the conditioned mind. i am spiritual in that i make it a practise to be aware of this. it is cultivation of awareness, taking control of our lives and not being a slave to the machine like so many people are.
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Boots
Disenchanted
Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1,137
Loc: Northwood, Ohio, U.S.A.
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: deranger]
#7981937 - 02/05/08 09:51 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
SyntheticMInd said: for me spirituality is realizing our conditioning, the process that has been integrated into our minds through years and years of external babble. we heard the external babble so much that an internal babbling took form. we keep this internal babble running by identifying with babble in the outside world. without this external babble it may feel as though we are going insane. spirituality for me is being aware of this internal process that is the conditioned mind. i am spiritual in that i make it a practice to be aware of this. it is cultivation of awareness, taking control of our lives and not being a slave to the machine like so many people are.
If this is what you meant by spirituality, then yes, I am spiritual.
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Boots]
#7981953 - 02/05/08 09:56 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Deepak Chopra - "spirituality is awareness of awareness”.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: deranger]
#7984889 - 02/05/08 10:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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That's exactly the answer I was looking for man! If I could give you a rating, I'd give you 5 shrooms for that!
So in your opinion, then, would being TOO spiritual mean you are insane?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Boots]
#7984896 - 02/05/08 10:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Boots said:
Quote:
SyntheticMInd said: for me spirituality is realizing our conditioning, the process that has been integrated into our minds through years and years of external babble. we heard the external babble so much that an internal babbling took form. we keep this internal babble running by identifying with babble in the outside world. without this external babble it may feel as though we are going insane. spirituality for me is being aware of this internal process that is the conditioned mind. i am spiritual in that i make it a practice to be aware of this. it is cultivation of awareness, taking control of our lives and not being a slave to the machine like so many people are.
If this is what you meant by spirituality, then yes, I am spiritual.
Do others consider you to be spiritual?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#7985700 - 02/06/08 06:39 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: That's exactly the answer I was looking for man! If I could give you a rating, I'd give you 5 shrooms for that!
So in your opinion, then, would being TOO spiritual mean you are insane?
insanity is just a word i used to describe the feeling of realizing the self, when the wheel of the mind comes to a stop. it can be shattering and confusing at first, but just like on the comeup of a mushroom trip there can be a breakthrough point and everything becomes purrfect. but i guess ultimately it is up to you whether or not you take control of yourself. many times a very closed egoic person will label somebody with more awareness as insane, just because they can't understand anything beyond their own level of perception. so that is another answer to your question.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Boots]
#7985907 - 02/06/08 09:05 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Boots said: I don't believe in destiny nor some dormant divine power, but I do believe I am destined for greatness.
Me too!
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Boots
Disenchanted
Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1,137
Loc: Northwood, Ohio, U.S.A.
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#7985945 - 02/06/08 09:22 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Boots said:
Quote:
SyntheticMInd said: for me spirituality is realizing our conditioning, the process that has been integrated into our minds through years and years of external babble. we heard the external babble so much that an internal babbling took form. we keep this internal babble running by identifying with babble in the outside world. without this external babble it may feel as though we are going insane. spirituality for me is being aware of this internal process that is the conditioned mind. i am spiritual in that i make it a practice to be aware of this. it is cultivation of awareness, taking control of our lives and not being a slave to the machine like so many people are.
If this is what you meant by spirituality, then yes, I am spiritual.
Do others consider you to be spiritual?
I doubt it. I don't really talk to others about my views or opinions and if I do, I leave out a lot of stuff. My knowledge is for me and me alone.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: deranger]
#7986173 - 02/06/08 10:41 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
SyntheticMInd said:
Quote:
Poid said: That's exactly the answer I was looking for man! If I could give you a rating, I'd give you 5 shrooms for that!
So in your opinion, then, would being TOO spiritual mean you are insane?
insanity is just a word i used to describe the feeling of realizing the self, when the wheel of the mind comes to a stop. it can be shattering and confusing at first, but just like on the comeup of a mushroom trip there can be a breakthrough point and everything becomes purrfect. but i guess ultimately it is up to you whether or not you take control of yourself. many times a very closed egoic person will label somebody with more awareness as insane, just because they can't understand anything beyond their own level of perception. so that is another answer to your question.
So what you're saying is that since what the very closed egoic think is insane really isn't, does that make them truly insane? Do we live in a world of insane lunatics, with a only a few who get the big picture? Or are the few who "get the big picture" the true lunatics?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#7986225 - 02/06/08 11:05 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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So what you're saying is that since what the very closed egoic think is insane really isn't, does that make them truly insane?
Not exactly, it depends on your definition of insanity and whether or not you want to use such labels to classify people. Like I said, I was just using the term insanity to describe a feeling I had within myself. A feeling of "derangement" if you will.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: deranger]
#7986598 - 02/06/08 12:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
SyntheticMInd said: So what you're saying is that since what the very closed egoic think is insane really isn't, does that make them truly insane?
Not exactly, it depends on your definition of insanity and whether or not you want to use such labels to classify people. Like I said, I was just using the term insanity to describe a feeling I had within myself. A feeling of "derangement" if you will.
I know exactly what you mean.
So do you think there is even a such thing as insanity?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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backfromthedead
Activated
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,592
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#7986643 - 02/06/08 01:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I do. Voices, thought broadcasting(telepathy??), and thought insertion too... Reality pressed undo... Or Redo... True and poo!! Now you've got 2.
This is more than a feeling too. Makes you wonder who's who and who's you.
Its like an echo-locating ventriloquist with the voices in your head. Also thought I was dead.
Impressive forces contacted but unfortunately diffused by the alien block in my stack.
I went insane. A feeling of derangement?? Just not the same.
--------------------
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#7987360 - 02/06/08 03:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: I know exactly what you mean.
So do you think there is even a such thing as insanity?
you crack me up man
yes, like psychosis (drug induced psychosis in my case). loss of control of self, thinking that killing a person is right, etc...
a few days ago there was this schizo walking behind me screaming at me in german... she was acting pretty insane.
i am pretty fucking insane
i also don't take this stuff too seriously.
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Quote:
backfromthedead said:Its like an echo-locating ventriloquist with the voices in your head. Also thought I was dead.
that sounds utterly familiar
Now you've got 2.
im trying to remember the time when i thought i had one....
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: deranger]
#7987396 - 02/06/08 03:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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i gotta say, i don't like it when people insert thoughts into my head. strange things happen to my energy even if i'm in a closed state, feels like a break in my identity.
i don't know how it's done either, i guess usually when you project something at someone, it doesn't come back at you, they sort of react to your projection.. with a more aware person, your projection has nowhere to go and it gets confused.
i like being in the presence of someone who is on a higher level of perception that most people but at the same time it can hurt.
at least i've been there so i know what is happening when it is, otherwise i might resent that person.
--------------------
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said:
i don't know how it's done either, i guess usually when you project something at someone, it doesn't come back at you, they sort of react to your projection.. with a more aware person, your projection has nowhere to go and it gets confused.
What do you mean by projection?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: i gotta say, i don't like it when people insert thoughts into my head. strange things happen to my energy even if i'm in a closed state, feels like a break in my identity.
i don't know how it's done either, i guess usually when you project something at someone, it doesn't come back at you, they sort of react to your projection.. with a more aware person, your projection has nowhere to go and it gets confused.
i like being in the presence of someone who is on a higher level of perception that most people but at the same time it can hurt.
at least i've been there so i know what is happening when it is, otherwise i might resent that person.
How can you tell if someone is on a higher level?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#7989578 - 02/06/08 10:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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projection = mental projections - putting a map on something to try and understand it
Quote:
How can you tell if someone is on a higher level?
maybe i shouldn't have said higher level, maybe "greater awareness" would be more appropriate, but to answer your question..
the way they move, how present they are (these two are closely connected), lack of pretension, won't humor your ego (if you have an inflated ego, get ready for it to be deflated because they are not sympathetic to your insecurities because they understand who you are behind the mask - this is different than having your feelings hurt, which is an egotistical thing - it's a challenge to the very identity you've created for yourself, who you think you are)
often times have a very high degree of empathy and even some telepathy
--------------------
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: projection = mental projections - putting a map on something to try and understand it
Quote:
How can you tell if someone is on a higher level?
maybe i shouldn't have said higher level, maybe "greater awareness" would be more appropriate, but to answer your question..
the way they move, how present they are (these two are closely connected), lack of pretension, won't humor your ego (if you have an inflated ego, get ready for it to be deflated because they are not sympathetic to your insecurities because they understand who you are behind the mask - this is different than having your feelings hurt, which is an egotistical thing - it's a challenge to the very identity you've created for yourself, who you think you are)
often times have a very high degree of empathy and even some telepathy
Is there a such thing a perfect ego, and ego that is 100% secure, do you think?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: projection = mental projections - putting a map on something to try and understand it
Quote:
How can you tell if someone is on a higher level?
maybe i shouldn't have said higher level, maybe "greater awareness" would be more appropriate, but to answer your question..
the way they move, how present they are (these two are closely connected), lack of pretension, won't humor your ego (if you have an inflated ego, get ready for it to be deflated because they are not sympathetic to your insecurities because they understand who you are behind the mask - this is different than having your feelings hurt, which is an egotistical thing - it's a challenge to the very identity you've created for yourself, who you think you are)
often times have a very high degree of empathy and even some telepathy
Is there a such thing as a perfect ego, an ego that is 100% secure, do you think?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (02/07/08 12:12 PM)
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#7991994 - 02/07/08 02:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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i guess it depends on how well you connect with the person, how perfect you see them to be.
you, Poid, from my eyes are perfect. but there will be others who will try and dig the tiniest imperfections out of your image and make you feel tiny and insignificant. it is up to you to create your security and your ego. don't let others mold your ego and project false images onto your being. you sound pretty immune anyways
and then there are the perfect masters -
http://www.shreeswami.org/avatars-perfect-masters-sadguru.htm
these guys have been known to channel such a divine presence or consciousness.
osho was a man who could channel such a presence. yet he was not a perfect man, he had many imperfections.
anybody can be a channel for expanded consciousness, yet not everybody is perfect.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: deranger]
#7992276 - 02/07/08 03:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
SyntheticMInd said: i guess it depends on how well you connect with the person, how perfect you see them to be.
you, Poid, from my eyes are perfect. but there will be others who will try and dig the tiniest imperfections out of your image and make you feel tiny and insignificant. it is up to you to create your security and your ego. don't let others mold your ego and project false images onto your being. you sound pretty immune anyways
and then there are the perfect masters -
http://www.shreeswami.org/avatars-perfect-masters-sadguru.htm
these guys have been known to channel such a divine presence or consciousness.
osho was a man who could channel such a presence. yet he was not a perfect man, he had many imperfections.
anybody can be a channel for expanded consciousness, yet not everybody is perfect.
Thanks for the compliment, man!
But I have wondered for a while if it is possible to have a perfect ego, in the sense that you can communicate and connect sublimely with the entire human race.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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HighHat
Repeat Gold Medal eBay -TiVoist
Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 303
Loc: Delocated
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: deranger]
#7992408 - 02/07/08 04:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I understand what you mean when you say "lower classes." Its like the 'lower' end of the spectrum is less "aware of being aware." Its not quite like a caste system because everyone in a lower class has the ability to rise up, though conditioning has made it hard for them to question themselves and the world around them, holding them back from transcendence.
Quote:
When I'm around the lower classes, it feels like they all notice my "vibe" and that they are in awe of it.
I have also noticed this. Apparently I can also "do anything" which perplexes me because as far as I know, I haven't done anything, much less anything extraordinary.
Quote:
it is only obvious that people are going to stare at me, and in a way, it kind of feels like that is some kind of mechanism to try to prevent people like me from achieving higher levels of humanness.
I have also felt this, but I have come to a somewhat different conclusion. I think this phenomena is not so much a 'mechanism' for anything and more a fearful reaction. Its almost like they cant predict me, so they keep their eyes on me, expecting me to lash out or do something crazy.
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Sometimes it feels like I have to much influence on people, and that I am responsible for all the good and badness in the lives of people around me because I either harmed them directly in some way, or indirectly by not helping them open their minds and thus improving their lives.
I try not to worry about this, It's not my responsibility and In fact I think if anyone is going to open their mind, they must do it on their own terms and for their own reasons. Once I got into an argument with someone of a 'lower class' and posed a few questions regarding how they lived their life and weather or not they were even happy with it. Shortly afterwards he started doing (more) drugs, lost his job, and hasn't done anything most people consider productive since. Now I know my questions had some impact because they ended the argument, but I refuse to take responsibility for his recent drug binges and the loss of his job. What it comes down to is everyone is responsible for their actions. Since I didn't give him the drugs or fail his piss test at his job, I am not responsible for his current state. Regardless, I do try to watch what kind of questions I pose to people of the lower class. Some people are happy with the way they are. Who am I to attack their happiness?
I also find it somewhat detrimental to this argument to classify people as 'low' or 'high' and use terms like 'them' to imply seperation simply based on the way some people think, but for the sake of coherence in this discussion, it is acceptable.
-------------------- Have you ever felt like you were wearing a hat, but you weren't? "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" -Letter from the Pennsylvania Assembly, November 11, 1755 This profile is strictly for role-playing. Any alleged association with illegal activities is purely fictional. Any images depicting illegal activities are photo-shopped or stolen.
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#7992423 - 02/07/08 04:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Poid said:But I have wondered for a while if it is possible to have a perfect ego, in the sense that you can communicate and connect sublimely with the entire human race.
this is why i pointed you in the direction of the sadguru.
people who have gone this far into self-realization can touch many people whether they know it consciously or not.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#7992477 - 02/07/08 04:18 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've recently started to rate people by classes, based on many criterion, but basically based on where they stand on society, and why; based on their efficiency.
I've noticed that those who subscribe to the idea of a hierarchical organization of human consciousness always believe that they are at or near the top.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: HighHat]
#7992546 - 02/07/08 04:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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HighHat said: I understand what you mean when you say "lower classes." Its like the 'lower' end of the spectrum is less "aware of being aware." Its not quite like a caste system because everyone in a lower class has the ability to rise up, though conditioning has made it hard for them to question themselves and the world around them, holding them back from transcendence.
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When I'm around the lower classes, it feels like they all notice my "vibe" and that they are in awe of it.
I have also noticed this. Apparently I can also "do anything" which perplexes me because as far as I know, I haven't done anything, much less anything extraordinary.
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it is only obvious that people are going to stare at me, and in a way, it kind of feels like that is some kind of mechanism to try to prevent people like me from achieving higher levels of humanness.
I have also felt this, but I have come to a somewhat different conclusion. I think this phenomena is not so much a 'mechanism' for anything and more a fearful reaction. Its almost like they cant predict me, so they keep their eyes on me, expecting me to lash out or do something crazy.
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Sometimes it feels like I have to much influence on people, and that I am responsible for all the good and badness in the lives of people around me because I either harmed them directly in some way, or indirectly by not helping them open their minds and thus improving their lives.
I try not to worry about this, It's not my responsibility and In fact I think if anyone is going to open their mind, they must do it on their own terms and for their own reasons. Once I got into an argument with someone of a 'lower class' and posed a few questions regarding how they lived their life and weather or not they were even happy with it. Shortly afterwards he started doing (more) drugs, lost his job, and hasn't done anything most people consider productive since. Now I know my questions had some impact because they ended the argument, but I refuse to take responsibility for his recent drug binges and the loss of his job. What it comes down to is everyone is responsible for their actions. Since I didn't give him the drugs or fail his piss test at his job, I am not responsible for his current state. Regardless, I do try to watch what kind of questions I pose to people of the lower class. Some people are happy with the way they are. Who am I to attack their happiness?
I also find it somewhat detrimental to this argument to classify people as 'low' or 'high' and use terms like 'them' to imply seperation simply based on the way some people think, but for the sake of coherence in this discussion, it is acceptable.
In a way, though, it is kind of like the caste system. There are many things that prevent the lower classes from achieving. I, myself, am not from a "high class" family, in financial terms anyways, and if I were to speak of these kinds of things in their presence, their reaction would be unstable. In fact, I've done it several times, and their reaction often times was so. The thing is, the average person doesn't know how to deal with, or handle, perplexing information that basically goes against their belief system. The higher class, in terms of intellectuality, wouldn't find perplexing the same kind of information the lower class would. And of course, this is because the higher class, again in terms of intellectuality, is able to decipher information faster and more efficiently, partly because they already comprehend a relatively vast amount of knowledge, therefore they are able to get over that type of severe reaction the lower class exhibit much faster, often instantaneously.
And only in that sense do I use the word mechanism; a "mechanism" that always prevents you from achieving, at every level, like it's always one step ahead of you lurking around the corner. I do not imply that someone is behind a physical mechanism of some sort to control human beings. I just mean that, inherently, that's the way it is. Also, though, you're right, alot of it is is a fearful reaction of some sort. But then you have to ask yourself where did this fear come from?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7992703 - 02/07/08 05:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Veritas said: I've noticed that those who subscribe to the idea of a hierarchical organization of human consciousness always believe that they are at or near the top.
i subscribe to the idea that some are more aware than others, and some are less aware. do you not find this true based on your observations? is everybody of equal awareness?
it may very well be that everybody does have equal awareness. but it may very well be that many are not utilizing their capabilities. some are too swamped by babble to even make sense of "awareness".
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7992906 - 02/07/08 05:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Veritas said:
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I've recently started to rate people by classes, based on many criterion, but basically based on where they stand on society, and why; based on their efficiency.
I've noticed that those who subscribe to the idea of a hierarchical organization of human consciousness always believe that they are at or near the top.
And I've noticed that you have alot of anger towards people.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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HighHat
Repeat Gold Medal eBay -TiVoist
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#7992979 - 02/07/08 06:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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In a way, though, it is kind of like the caste system. There are many things that prevent the lower classes from achieving.
Would you mind expanding the list of things that may keep the lower classes from achieving?
I agree that a vast knowledge base is an important factor in being able to effectively decipher information, but this doesn't seem like a hurdle for the lower classes. Information is everywhere, granted there is false information, biased information, and useless information, but information is easy for everyone (in the US at least) to acquire a vast knowledge base. This leads me to believe that those of the lower class are responsible for their position and could change that if they came to the realization that (and I hate to be cliche) knowledge is power.
Now that I think about it, this could be looked upon as a caste system, although what is the deciding factor of where someone falls on the scale? What are the rewards/penalties of each 'level'? Could it perhaps be a matter of temperament? If it is then this could well be a 'perfect' system. Everyone seems happy where they are on the scale and if they choose, can move up or down. The only limits to this I suppose, would be peers fearful of the said person changing and attempting to influence their decision. I guess you can add that to the list of things that may keep a person of a lower class from attaining a higher level: peer pressure.
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But then you have to ask yourself where did this fear come from?
I don't even think the people who eye me are aware of their fear. Its a primal reaction to the unknown. I react to situations and ideas differently than they do, therefore I am an X factor in their minds, an unknown. When we are aware of being aware, we are aware that it is nothing but an instinct to fear the unknown then (hopefully) discard that fear as counter-productive and illogical.
-------------------- Have you ever felt like you were wearing a hat, but you weren't? "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" -Letter from the Pennsylvania Assembly, November 11, 1755 This profile is strictly for role-playing. Any alleged association with illegal activities is purely fictional. Any images depicting illegal activities are photo-shopped or stolen.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#7993021 - 02/07/08 06:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Poid said:
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Veritas said:
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I've recently started to rate people by classes, based on many criterion, but basically based on where they stand on society, and why; based on their efficiency.
I've noticed that those who subscribe to the idea of a hierarchical organization of human consciousness always believe that they are at or near the top.
And I've noticed that you have alot of anger towards people.
I will not respond to personalisms on this board. It appears that your understanding of the rules of this forum is still incomplete.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: deranger]
#7993045 - 02/07/08 06:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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SyntheticMInd said:
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Veritas said: I've noticed that those who subscribe to the idea of a hierarchical organization of human consciousness always believe that they are at or near the top.
i subscribe to the idea that some are more aware than others, and some are less aware. do you not find this true based on your observations? is everybody of equal awareness?
I think that any perception we may have of someone else's awareness or lack thereof is pure guesswork on our part, and perhaps projection. We cannot possibly know what someone else's "level" of awareness might be, nor can we accurately assess our own, IMO.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: HighHat]
#7993057 - 02/07/08 06:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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HighHat said:
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In a way, though, it is kind of like the caste system. There are many things that prevent the lower classes from achieving.
Would you mind expanding the list of things that may keep the lower classes from achieving?
I agree that a vast knowledge base is an important factor in being able to effectively decipher information, but this doesn't seem like a hurdle for the lower classes. Information is everywhere, granted there is false information, biased information, and useless information, but information is easy for everyone (in the US at least) to acquire a vast knowledge base. This leads me to believe that those of the lower class are responsible for their position and could change that if they came to the realization that (and I hate to be cliche) knowledge is power.
Now that I think about it, this could be looked upon as a caste system, although what is the deciding factor of where someone falls on the scale? What are the rewards/penalties of each 'level'? Could it perhaps be a matter of temperament? If it is then this could well be a 'perfect' system. Everyone seems happy where they are on the scale and if they choose, can move up or down. The only limits to this I suppose, would be peers fearful of the said person changing and attempting to influence their decision. I guess you can add that to the list of things that may keep a person of a lower class from attaining a higher level: peer pressure.
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But then you have to ask yourself where did this fear come from?
I don't even think the people who eye me are aware of their fear. Its a primal reaction to the unknown. I react to situations and ideas differently than they do, therefore I am an X factor in their minds, an unknown. When we are aware of being aware, we are aware that it is nothing but an instinct to fear the unknown then (hopefully) discard that fear as counter-productive and illogical.
I wouldn't mind very much, but may you permit me to ask you a little bit about yourself? Growing up, where would you say your parents were, financially, lower class, lower-middle class, middle class, upper-middle class, high class, or even upper high class?
The fear mentioned wasn't fear of others, it was your own fear. Fear was kind of a harsh word, more like acute nervousness caused by the awareness that others are watching you.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (02/07/08 06:41 PM)
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7993067 - 02/07/08 06:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Veritas said:I think that any perception we may have of someone else's awareness or lack thereof is pure guesswork on our part, and perhaps projection. We cannot possibly know what someone else's "level" of awareness might be, nor can we accurately assess our own, IMO.
can you tell how unaware a person is?
there's surely got to be signs.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: deranger]
#7993090 - 02/07/08 06:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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The way we interpret the signs is based upon our own standard of what awareness looks like, and so it is guesswork. We might be able to claim that someone who walks into mid-day traffic & causes an accident was unaware of their surroundings at the time, but can we say that they are less aware, in general, than someone else?
These comparisons are meaningless and baseless, and seem mostly designed for self-aggrandizement.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#7993127 - 02/07/08 06:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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And I've noticed that you have alot of anger towards people.
Poid, you're doing it again.
Veritas' anger, or lack of anger, or favorite color have nothing to do with the topic. Drop the personalisms and stick to the topic please.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Diploid]
#7993167 - 02/07/08 06:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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I like purple.
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7993211 - 02/07/08 06:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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i agree, but i definitely do notice signs of unawareness in people. like seriousness, lack of humor, judgement, anger, etc. but that is just the way i interpret and define awareness (or lack of).
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: deranger]
#7993242 - 02/07/08 07:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yes, and you are also only experiencing them in that moment...when they might be in physical or emotional pain & expressing that through their actions. It is tempting to jump to conclusions about where other people are "at," especially in comparison to oneself (I do it, too ), but it seems to me that it ultimately serves no one.
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7993289 - 02/07/08 07:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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yes it is important not to come to conclusions or compare. this is most certainly an open minded perspective.
but couldn't the way they show such attachment to emotion (expression/projection of anger, hatred, judgement etc.) be a sign of unawarenss?
i just like to observe some of the people i work with, how miserable they are and how they project this onto other people. how angry they get, how they project this anger/irritability/darkness. it just doesn't seem like a very conscious path these people are taking.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: deranger]
#7993318 - 02/07/08 07:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Perhaps they are not taking the most-conscious path available to them, who really knows? Are we all on the SAME path? Couldn't someone just as easily say that your judgment and comparison are "signs" of unawareness? Who can say that they are 100% aware, 100% of the time?
We all have our blind spots, and some of them are visible to others. What point is there in artificially elevating ourselves above others based upon our vision of their blind spots? Surely they can see ours, too.
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HighHat
Repeat Gold Medal eBay -TiVoist
Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 303
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Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Diploid]
#7993368 - 02/07/08 07:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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The financial standings of the family I was brought up in would be considered by most "upper-middle class".
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The fear mentioned wasn't fear of others, it was your own fear. Fear was kind of a harsh word, more like acute nervousness caused by the awareness that others are watching you.
I'm not sure what fear you were talking about. Sometimes I get nervous when people stare at me, but I was referring to how people looked at me and how I perceived that a sign of fear from their lack of being able to predict my actions.
-------------------- Have you ever felt like you were wearing a hat, but you weren't? "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" -Letter from the Pennsylvania Assembly, November 11, 1755 This profile is strictly for role-playing. Any alleged association with illegal activities is purely fictional. Any images depicting illegal activities are photo-shopped or stolen.
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7993406 - 02/07/08 07:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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for sure we all have blind spots, but some people definitely have more than others. im not trying to sound like im on top of anyone here. i would rather try to recognize what it is to be open or closed - receptive or sealed - sensitive or thick-skinned.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7993438 - 02/07/08 07:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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It's not guesswork. If you are a whole lot more aware than someone else, or if someone is much more aware than you, or intelligent, it becomes obvious. My guess is that you surround yourself with people similar to you, like we all do most of the time, so you don't see this for the most part.
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and seem mostly designed for self-aggrandizement.
It doesn't seem that way to me
--------------------
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: deranger]
#7993467 - 02/07/08 07:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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That's the problem, we are BLIND to our blind spots, so we have no idea whether we have more or less than other people. And what is the point of making this comparison, anyway? To choose companions? To boost our self-esteem? To spot those who need our "help"?
What if we focused our attention on developing our own awareness, and let others do what they are going to do anyway?
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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EternalCowabunga said: It's not guesswork. If you are a whole lot more aware than someone else, or if someone is much more aware than you, or intelligent, it becomes obvious.
Right, it seems obvious based upon our limited perception of what is going on inside someone else. It seems obvious based upon our application of our own standards to the behaviors of others. Does this mean that we are not guessing? No.
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My guess is that you surround yourself with people similar to you, like we all do most of the time, so you don't see this for the most part.
I work with and interact with people who are very dissimilar to me, actually. My family and close friends are more like me, but I spend most of my day interacting with my co-workers and clients.
As I said, it is tempting to judge and draw comparisons, especially when it seem apparent that someone else's lack of awareness is creating great suffering in their life. This does not, however, mean that what is apparent to us is factual.
Rather than judging the inner state of others based upon their actions, why not offer an invitation to anyone who arrives--"I am willing to see you"? The process of applying standards and hierarchies and comparisons only obscures our ability to see who someone is in the moment, and it is unlikely that someone else will allow us to see them when they meet judgment in our eyes.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7993561 - 02/07/08 07:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Maybe. I would think you would have to be aware of this difference before you could classify and compare though. Which came first, the judgment or the perception? I would consider myself part of this "lower caste" for most of my life and I can see that there are people who are more aware than me based on their actions. Are you going to tell me that this is self loathing and self esteem issues? You'd be wrong because whether you like it or not, we CAN judge the inner state of people based on their actions.
It's not even really about judging that person, it's just being aware of their awareness. I have a friend who is much smarter and more aware than me, and he sees who I really am, and treats me as who I really am, even though I am always unconsciously judging him and projecting things on to him. So judgement obscures, awareness is simply awareness.
You are assuming that people posting in this thread are condemning or judging less aware people when they are simply pointing out something that has at least some truth to it.
--------------------
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7993578 - 02/07/08 07:57 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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well i see light and i see darkness, i see people taking different paths. these are just observations. it doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with me.
it is fact that some people are more physically sensitive to the unhealthy chemicals put in shit food. this relates to how i perceive sensitivity in one's state of being. some are more sensitive and receptive than others, period. it really doesn't have anything to do with me.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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You'd be wrong because whether you like it or not, we CAN judge the inner state of people based on their actions.
Not accurately. Your guesses might be correct, but you cannot state that they are definitely correct, or even that they are probably correct. You view others as more aware than you, but this is simply a guess based upon the limited data you have to work with.
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HighHat
Repeat Gold Medal eBay -TiVoist
Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 303
Loc: Delocated
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7993975 - 02/07/08 09:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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And what is the point of making this comparison, anyway? To choose companions? To boost our self-esteem? To spot those who need our "help"?
What I am doing is citing my observations and throwing around my ideas in hopes to gain some sort of understanding of people. I want to see if there is something people are born with that makes them more accepting of information, and if given an innate ability to do this, what could generally cause them to shut out ideas.
Yes, I could get on some scholarly website, do a meta-analysis and come to conclusions, but I would also like to talk to people about my ideas and possibly have them disassembled by someone else and hear how they would improve on them.
-------------------- Have you ever felt like you were wearing a hat, but you weren't? "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" -Letter from the Pennsylvania Assembly, November 11, 1755 This profile is strictly for role-playing. Any alleged association with illegal activities is purely fictional. Any images depicting illegal activities are photo-shopped or stolen.
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Orbus
The Liberator
Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 85
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7994145 - 02/07/08 10:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Veritas said:
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You'd be wrong because whether you like it or not, we CAN judge the inner state of people based on their actions.
Not accurately. Your guesses might be correct, but you cannot state that they are definitely correct, or even that they are probably correct. You view others as more aware than you, but this is simply a guess based upon the limited data you have to work with.
This whole idea of outer actions and inner mental states has a whole host of problems.
For example logical behaviorists believe that when we are speaking of mental states we are really only talking about behavior. We are saying nothing more than a person is disposed to act in such and such a way. In this case we couldn't say a person acts as if he is less aware and yet on the inside is actually more aware on the inside.
To say a person is more aware than another, is saying nothing more than given certain circumstances that person would act in such a way that would be perceived as more aware than another person's actions in a similar situation. Inner mental states play no role in our understanding.
-------------------- ------------------------------------------------------ Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Orbus]
#7994233 - 02/07/08 10:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Inner mental states play no role in our understanding.
Erm...I'm pretty sure that understanding IS an inner mental state. Are you saying that our understanding of others does not include direct knowledge of their inner mental state?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7994244 - 02/07/08 10:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Veritas said: I like purple.
Which, of course, is the color of anger.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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I thought that was red, as in "when he beat me at racquetball for the fifth time this week, I saw red"?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7994291 - 02/07/08 10:43 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
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Inner mental states play no role in our understanding.
Erm...I'm pretty sure that understanding IS an inner mental state. Are you saying that our understanding of others does not include direct knowledge of their inner mental state?
I think what he's trying to say is that one can understand phenomena without the aid, and ultimately the distraction, of language, which is how most of us perceive inner mental states.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#7994308 - 02/07/08 10:48 PM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Where did he mention language? I'm pretty certain that he was talking about the difficulty of translating actions into a precise model of someone's inner state.
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HighHat
Repeat Gold Medal eBay -TiVoist
Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 303
Loc: Delocated
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7994561 - 02/08/08 12:16 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Does that mean that when I pose an argument to someone and they blatantly tell me "You're stupid. Thats stupid. There is no way that I will ever believe that." is just as "aware" as I am?
Yes. That is a word-for-word EXACT quote.
Ok, even if you say that this only gives me an idea about how aware they are, is this not at least 99.999% positive that they are closed to new ideas?
The question that I posed had to do with altering human DNA in order to prevent genetic diseases.
When I asked why he felt that way, all he could do was tell me that if people start messing with their DNA "We would all become zombies or something". Ok, also a semi-valid argument, but the best source he could muster to back up his belief was that he saw it in more than one movie.
Am I still to expect that my assumptions are wrong?
-------------------- Have you ever felt like you were wearing a hat, but you weren't? "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" -Letter from the Pennsylvania Assembly, November 11, 1755 This profile is strictly for role-playing. Any alleged association with illegal activities is purely fictional. Any images depicting illegal activities are photo-shopped or stolen.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#7994827 - 02/08/08 03:05 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
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EternalCowabunga said: projection = mental projections - putting a map on something to try and understand it
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How can you tell if someone is on a higher level?
maybe i shouldn't have said higher level, maybe "greater awareness" would be more appropriate, but to answer your question..
the way they move, how present they are (these two are closely connected), lack of pretension, won't humor your ego (if you have an inflated ego, get ready for it to be deflated because they are not sympathetic to your insecurities because they understand who you are behind the mask - this is different than having your feelings hurt, which is an egotistical thing - it's a challenge to the very identity you've created for yourself, who you think you are)
often times have a very high degree of empathy and even some telepathy
Is there a such thing as a perfect ego, an ego that is 100% secure, do you think?
that's a good question. i don't know if i can answer that. i think that perfection exists only in a timeless unconscious state, while the ego is constantly growing (not inflating... inflation is bad whether it's negative or positive inflation, i'm talking about positive growth). i see ego growth as a continual process of becoming more uniquely individual, and i see this continuing into the future until everyone becomes their own avatar, or something like that.
i can't say anything for sure though, i wouldn't mind hearing other thoughts.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: projection = mental projections - putting a map on something to try and understand it
Quote:
How can you tell if someone is on a higher level?
maybe i shouldn't have said higher level, maybe "greater awareness" would be more appropriate, but to answer your question..
the way they move, how present they are (these two are closely connected), lack of pretension, won't humor your ego (if you have an inflated ego, get ready for it to be deflated because they are not sympathetic to your insecurities because they understand who you are behind the mask - this is different than having your feelings hurt, which is an egotistical thing - it's a challenge to the very identity you've created for yourself, who you think you are)
often times have a very high degree of empathy and even some telepathy
Is there a such thing as a perfect ego, an ego that is 100% secure, do you think?
that's a good question. i don't know if i can answer that. i think that perfection exists only in a timeless unconscious state, while the ego is constantly growing (not inflating... inflation is bad whether it's negative or positive inflation, i'm talking about positive growth). i see ego growth as a continual process of becoming more uniquely individual, and i see this continuing into the future until everyone becomes their own avatar, or something like that.
i can't say anything for sure though, i wouldn't mind hearing other thoughts.
How long do you think it would/should take to grow before it becomes essentially perfect?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#8003398 - 02/10/08 01:22 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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no idea
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prankster
Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 96
Last seen: 26 days, 23 hours
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Post deleted by prankster
Reason for deletion: .
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: prankster]
#8004184 - 02/10/08 11:00 AM (16 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
prankster said: Question
Why are you always talking about going back to the origin instead of waking up to what lies ahead?
Answer
What is waking up? Up to what? Westerners always have these notions of illumination. Yes: Satori means "awakening." People like the idea of waking up; but to what? It's easier to go back. The newborn baby is pure. It has true freedom, it's not at all complicated, doesn't need to make love, gets its food from its mother, cries when it feels like it . . . It doesn't think. We have to understand what freedom is. If you think with your fore-brain all the time, you become complicated; that is how European philosophy got so complicated. We must go back to the origin of the human being. It's difficult. A koan.
- Zen Master Deshimaru
Going back to the origin, waking up to what lies ahead; those are just linguistic terms that basically define the same idea. Are you merely arguing linguistic semantics, or do you actually have a point?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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