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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Poid]
#7993127 - 02/07/08 06:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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And I've noticed that you have alot of anger towards people.
Poid, you're doing it again.
Veritas' anger, or lack of anger, or favorite color have nothing to do with the topic. Drop the personalisms and stick to the topic please.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Diploid]
#7993167 - 02/07/08 06:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I like purple.
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7993211 - 02/07/08 06:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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i agree, but i definitely do notice signs of unawareness in people. like seriousness, lack of humor, judgement, anger, etc. but that is just the way i interpret and define awareness (or lack of).
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: deranger]
#7993242 - 02/07/08 07:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yes, and you are also only experiencing them in that moment...when they might be in physical or emotional pain & expressing that through their actions. It is tempting to jump to conclusions about where other people are "at," especially in comparison to oneself (I do it, too ), but it seems to me that it ultimately serves no one.
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7993289 - 02/07/08 07:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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yes it is important not to come to conclusions or compare. this is most certainly an open minded perspective.
but couldn't the way they show such attachment to emotion (expression/projection of anger, hatred, judgement etc.) be a sign of unawarenss?
i just like to observe some of the people i work with, how miserable they are and how they project this onto other people. how angry they get, how they project this anger/irritability/darkness. it just doesn't seem like a very conscious path these people are taking.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: deranger]
#7993318 - 02/07/08 07:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Perhaps they are not taking the most-conscious path available to them, who really knows? Are we all on the SAME path? Couldn't someone just as easily say that your judgment and comparison are "signs" of unawareness? Who can say that they are 100% aware, 100% of the time?
We all have our blind spots, and some of them are visible to others. What point is there in artificially elevating ourselves above others based upon our vision of their blind spots? Surely they can see ours, too.
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HighHat
Repeat Gold Medal eBay -TiVoist



Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 303
Loc: Delocated
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Diploid]
#7993368 - 02/07/08 07:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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The financial standings of the family I was brought up in would be considered by most "upper-middle class".
Quote:
The fear mentioned wasn't fear of others, it was your own fear. Fear was kind of a harsh word, more like acute nervousness caused by the awareness that others are watching you.
I'm not sure what fear you were talking about. Sometimes I get nervous when people stare at me, but I was referring to how people looked at me and how I perceived that a sign of fear from their lack of being able to predict my actions.
-------------------- Have you ever felt like you were wearing a hat, but you weren't? "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" -Letter from the Pennsylvania Assembly, November 11, 1755 This profile is strictly for role-playing. Any alleged association with illegal activities is purely fictional. Any images depicting illegal activities are photo-shopped or stolen.
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7993406 - 02/07/08 07:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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for sure we all have blind spots, but some people definitely have more than others. im not trying to sound like im on top of anyone here. i would rather try to recognize what it is to be open or closed - receptive or sealed - sensitive or thick-skinned.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7993438 - 02/07/08 07:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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It's not guesswork. If you are a whole lot more aware than someone else, or if someone is much more aware than you, or intelligent, it becomes obvious. My guess is that you surround yourself with people similar to you, like we all do most of the time, so you don't see this for the most part.
Quote:
and seem mostly designed for self-aggrandizement.
It doesn't seem that way to me
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: deranger]
#7993467 - 02/07/08 07:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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That's the problem, we are BLIND to our blind spots, so we have no idea whether we have more or less than other people. And what is the point of making this comparison, anyway? To choose companions? To boost our self-esteem? To spot those who need our "help"?
What if we focused our attention on developing our own awareness, and let others do what they are going to do anyway?
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: It's not guesswork. If you are a whole lot more aware than someone else, or if someone is much more aware than you, or intelligent, it becomes obvious.
Right, it seems obvious based upon our limited perception of what is going on inside someone else. It seems obvious based upon our application of our own standards to the behaviors of others. Does this mean that we are not guessing? No.
Quote:
My guess is that you surround yourself with people similar to you, like we all do most of the time, so you don't see this for the most part.
I work with and interact with people who are very dissimilar to me, actually. My family and close friends are more like me, but I spend most of my day interacting with my co-workers and clients.
As I said, it is tempting to judge and draw comparisons, especially when it seem apparent that someone else's lack of awareness is creating great suffering in their life. This does not, however, mean that what is apparent to us is factual.
Rather than judging the inner state of others based upon their actions, why not offer an invitation to anyone who arrives--"I am willing to see you"? The process of applying standards and hierarchies and comparisons only obscures our ability to see who someone is in the moment, and it is unlikely that someone else will allow us to see them when they meet judgment in our eyes.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7993561 - 02/07/08 07:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Maybe. I would think you would have to be aware of this difference before you could classify and compare though. Which came first, the judgment or the perception? I would consider myself part of this "lower caste" for most of my life and I can see that there are people who are more aware than me based on their actions. Are you going to tell me that this is self loathing and self esteem issues? You'd be wrong because whether you like it or not, we CAN judge the inner state of people based on their actions.
It's not even really about judging that person, it's just being aware of their awareness. I have a friend who is much smarter and more aware than me, and he sees who I really am, and treats me as who I really am, even though I am always unconsciously judging him and projecting things on to him. So judgement obscures, awareness is simply awareness.
You are assuming that people posting in this thread are condemning or judging less aware people when they are simply pointing out something that has at least some truth to it.
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7993578 - 02/07/08 07:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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well i see light and i see darkness, i see people taking different paths. these are just observations. it doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with me.
it is fact that some people are more physically sensitive to the unhealthy chemicals put in shit food. this relates to how i perceive sensitivity in one's state of being. some are more sensitive and receptive than others, period. it really doesn't have anything to do with me.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
You'd be wrong because whether you like it or not, we CAN judge the inner state of people based on their actions.
Not accurately. Your guesses might be correct, but you cannot state that they are definitely correct, or even that they are probably correct. You view others as more aware than you, but this is simply a guess based upon the limited data you have to work with.
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HighHat
Repeat Gold Medal eBay -TiVoist



Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 303
Loc: Delocated
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7993975 - 02/07/08 09:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
And what is the point of making this comparison, anyway? To choose companions? To boost our self-esteem? To spot those who need our "help"?
What I am doing is citing my observations and throwing around my ideas in hopes to gain some sort of understanding of people. I want to see if there is something people are born with that makes them more accepting of information, and if given an innate ability to do this, what could generally cause them to shut out ideas.
Yes, I could get on some scholarly website, do a meta-analysis and come to conclusions, but I would also like to talk to people about my ideas and possibly have them disassembled by someone else and hear how they would improve on them.
-------------------- Have you ever felt like you were wearing a hat, but you weren't? "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" -Letter from the Pennsylvania Assembly, November 11, 1755 This profile is strictly for role-playing. Any alleged association with illegal activities is purely fictional. Any images depicting illegal activities are photo-shopped or stolen.
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Orbus
The Liberator



Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 85
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7994145 - 02/07/08 10:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
You'd be wrong because whether you like it or not, we CAN judge the inner state of people based on their actions.
Not accurately. Your guesses might be correct, but you cannot state that they are definitely correct, or even that they are probably correct. You view others as more aware than you, but this is simply a guess based upon the limited data you have to work with.
This whole idea of outer actions and inner mental states has a whole host of problems.
For example logical behaviorists believe that when we are speaking of mental states we are really only talking about behavior. We are saying nothing more than a person is disposed to act in such and such a way. In this case we couldn't say a person acts as if he is less aware and yet on the inside is actually more aware on the inside.
To say a person is more aware than another, is saying nothing more than given certain circumstances that person would act in such a way that would be perceived as more aware than another person's actions in a similar situation. Inner mental states play no role in our understanding.
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------------------------------------------------------ Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Orbus]
#7994233 - 02/07/08 10:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inner mental states play no role in our understanding.
Erm...I'm pretty sure that understanding IS an inner mental state. Are you saying that our understanding of others does not include direct knowledge of their inner mental state?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7994244 - 02/07/08 10:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: I like purple.
Which, of course, is the color of anger.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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I thought that was red, as in "when he beat me at racquetball for the fifth time this week, I saw red"?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: What is spirituality? [Re: Veritas]
#7994291 - 02/07/08 10:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
Inner mental states play no role in our understanding.
Erm...I'm pretty sure that understanding IS an inner mental state. Are you saying that our understanding of others does not include direct knowledge of their inner mental state?
I think what he's trying to say is that one can understand phenomena without the aid, and ultimately the distraction, of language, which is how most of us perceive inner mental states.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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