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OfflineLove Cap
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Validity isn't always truth.
    #7979860 - 02/04/08 08:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Just a reminder. Also another reason I have previously said that logic is almost limiting. Don't get me wrong, logic is a very important tool.. but not the only way to find truth in things.
Here is a logic test I recently took if anyone else is interested.

http://www.think-logically.co.uk/lt.htm


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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: Love Cap]
    #7979927 - 02/04/08 08:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

this statement is false


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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: Love Cap]
    #7980081 - 02/04/08 09:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It seems to me that the flaw you are talking about is a flaw with the person, not with logic itself. Logic never claimed that validity is truth, thats something a person would confuse. Y'know the old saying - garbage in, garbage out.

BTW, I get an error when submitting the logic test


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: DieCommie]
    #7980111 - 02/04/08 09:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

exactly, logic says that validity isn't always truth because that wouldn't be very logical. This is why is was kind of a reminder I guess, not pointing out any flaws in logic.


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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: Love Cap]
    #7980180 - 02/04/08 09:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

As is usually the case, the cause of bad results is user error.  :badcomputer:

I was actually just tutoring somebody on the difference between true and valid about an hour ago at work (along with some venn diagrams).  For many people it is quite hard to distinguish between them.  Even smart people.  They are just so used to choosing what they think is logical instead of following the rules and structure they should be.


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: DieCommie]
    #7982351 - 02/05/08 11:46 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:shrug:  works for me..


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: Love Cap]
    #7984321 - 02/05/08 08:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You can have a deductively valid argument that is untrue, because validity is determined by structure, not content. I could say:

If the moon is made of blue cheese it's edible.
The moon is made of blue cheese.
So, it's edible.

This is valid. It is clearly untrue. The issue here is evaluating the quality of the premises. In this example, the second premise is obviously bunk.


Edited by NiamhNyx (02/05/08 09:04 PM)


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7984558 - 02/05/08 09:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You can't beat logic, man.

That just isn't...well, logical.

Logic isn't one tool. It's the whole fucking toolbox.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: g00ru]
    #7984643 - 02/05/08 09:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Spock: Logic and practical information do not seem to apply here.
McCoy: You admit that?
Spock: To deny the facts would be illogical, doctor.



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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: Middleman]
    #7985991 - 02/06/08 09:33 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Mmmmm!! Space energy!! And a badge?? Right on.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: g00ru]
    #7985998 - 02/06/08 09:35 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
You can't beat logic, man.

That just isn't...well, logical.

Logic isn't one tool.  It's the whole fucking toolbox.




:thumbup:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: g00ru]
    #7987607 - 02/06/08 04:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think you're missing a few tools then.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: Love Cap]
    #7987640 - 02/06/08 04:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

a long time ago there was a very interesting thread where someone posed the question "what is the opposite of death?".
Most answered "life". because we are rooted in western logic.
but the most correct answer (as correct as a value judgement can be) was "Birth" which is what the majority of eastern thinking people said.

Logic is never wrong because when you "know" you have it, there is no denying it, even if it leads you to the wrong (or atleast, not the best) answer.


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7987677 - 02/06/08 05:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

both are logically correct... you can say that birth is closer to the correct answer because between the two.. birth is more intuitively correct.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: Love Cap]
    #7987883 - 02/06/08 05:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

well, both would be correct on some level, but death is viewed as the end of life... meaning that it is a part of life... atle4ast viewed from the eastern perspective... and as such, birth would be the beginning of life.

maybe the confusion came from a vocabulary difference as well.
maybe most westerners hear the word "death" and think of it in the broader sense... but even then, birth would be a more correct answer, IMO.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7987905 - 02/06/08 05:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The opposite of end is not exist(ing), but beginning. Following the same logic, the opposite of death is birth, but this is far from being an intuitive answer. :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7988195 - 02/06/08 06:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Just to clarify the terms here:

On most issues, it's entirely possible to make several different logical arguments that come to different conclusions. There are two types of logical argument, deductive and inductive. Deductive arguments are about things that are undeniably true, facts. Inductive arguments, on the other hand, are about things with no conclusive or indisputable conclusion. These issues are open to a variety of interpretations and there is room for rational people to differ in thier views. Most topics that are interesting enough to discuss require inductive reasoning.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7988204 - 02/06/08 06:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
Just to clarify the terms here:

On most issues, it's entirely possible to make several different logical arguments that come to different conclusions. There are two types of logical argument, deductive and inductive. Deductive arguments are about things that are undeniably true, facts. Inductive arguments, on the other hand, are about things with no conclusive or indisputable conclusion. These issues are open to a variety of interpretations and there is room for rational people to differ in thier views. Most topics that are interesting enough to discuss require inductive reasoning.




Either way, it's still logic. And much of the time there is a solution inductive reasoning can bring you too that is infinitely superior to any alternative.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: g00ru]
    #7988218 - 02/06/08 06:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Sometimes. But for many issues there is a fair amount of room for rational disagreement, and whether or not your prefer one side or another depends on how you prioritize values.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: g00ru]
    #7988231 - 02/06/08 06:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

On most issues, if you really believe that your view is the RIGHT ONE and that for someone to disagree they must be stupid or evil, that's called dogmatism and it isn't very rational at all. Although, yes, there are good and bad arguments. My point is just that good (and bad) arguments can be made on either side of a contentious issue.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7988667 - 02/06/08 07:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, but usually by definition you will think your opinion is THE correct one, otherwise why would you hold that opinion.

Example: I don't think there is a god. However, it would be foolish and illogical for me to say I KNOW there isn't a god.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: g00ru]
    #7988729 - 02/06/08 07:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No, I may think my opinion is better, but not necessarily THE correct one. It may be a fine distinction, but it is an important one nonetheless. This way I can recognize that your view is rational and reasonable considering your experience and value system, but I can still think mine is better. If I didn't think it was better I probably wouldn't hold it.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7988865 - 02/06/08 08:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think we're saying the same thing.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: g00ru]
    #7988915 - 02/06/08 08:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

haha, probably.


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OfflineAll We Perceive
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: g00ru]
    #7990404 - 02/07/08 02:45 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:


Either way, it's still logic. And much of the time there is a solution inductive reasoning can bring you too that is infinitely superior to any alternative.




Please offer me an example where the conclusion: "All violinists play the violin" through deductive reasoning is not as good as an inductive reasoning process deriving the same conclusion


--------------------


"plus they atually think jambands are good or sumthing, so they clearly know absolutely nothing about music, clearly lol" -Bassfreak


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: All We Perceive]
    #7991174 - 02/07/08 11:01 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You don't need an inductive reasoning process to come to a conclusion like that. The premise is contained in the conclusion and needs no other support. Of course all violonists play violin; no one in thier right mind would argue that. It's purely deductive.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: Love Cap]
    #7991520 - 02/07/08 12:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Logic is not a method of gathering information, it is a method of discerning irrelevant/false/misleading conclusions about the information one gathers via perception and intuition.

YA: The opposite of death is not birth, it is mitosis.  :wink:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: Veritas]
    #7991566 - 02/07/08 12:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The opposite of death is not birth, it is mitosis.






???


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7992096 - 02/07/08 03:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

westerners and easterners are wrong, the hedonists say that orgasm is the opposite of death.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7992153 - 02/07/08 03:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No, orgasm is the opposite of watching golf on TV.  :lol:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: Veritas]
    #7992181 - 02/07/08 03:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineAll We Perceive
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7992949 - 02/07/08 06:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Eh, valid point - it was 4am :P

Meant to say "violinists play violin" ... deductive reasoning here is going to be superior to inductive reasoning for how "unshakable" the truth is. The statement is simply illustrating that inductive reasoning is, in fact, not "infinitely better" than deductive reasoning.

In any case, I have heard some mention of talk of deductive reasoning collapsing into inductive reasoning regarding philosophy of science. Anyone know anything about this?


--------------------


"plus they atually think jambands are good or sumthing, so they clearly know absolutely nothing about music, clearly lol" -Bassfreak


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Validity isn't always truth. [Re: All We Perceive]
    #7993153 - 02/07/08 06:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

All We Perceive said:
Eh, valid point - it was 4am :P

Meant to say "violinists play violin" ... deductive reasoning here is going to be superior to inductive reasoning for how "unshakable" the truth is. The statement is simply illustrating that inductive reasoning is, in fact, not "infinitely better" than deductive reasoning.

In any case, I have heard some mention of talk of deductive reasoning collapsing into inductive reasoning regarding philosophy of science. Anyone know anything about this?




Well the farther out you get the more it becomes inductive.

But I don't really see where you're going with that analogy; it doesn't really pertain.

I wasn't even arguing against deductive reasoning.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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