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Saryn
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Registered: 11/16/07
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Question on full colonized cakes vs contams
#7979454 - 02/04/08 07:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Ok so its been a while since I posted, got the incubation down perfect (last batch of 48 jars had only ONE!!!! with contamination)... however I have bumped into a new problem. Out of 20 jars I have so far birthed, only 3 have fruited without getting tich. My question is this, where is the contamination coming from?
Heres my process:
The cakes are perfectly healthy and 100% colonized before they are removed from the jars. The cakes are then left for 18-24 hours (depending on when I can get to them) in tap water at about 65F quickly followed by being rolled in verm and placed in to my FC. FC is kept at 72.5F and at 99-100%RH, with a florescent light on for 12 hours a day. The FC is humidified using a 100ml/1gal ratio of H202 to water. With the 3 that made it, it took about a week in the FC to start pinning and then 3 days for full growth which was great to watch! But, all the rest seem to get tich during the week prior to the point when pins start. Any cake which I can identify as having tich is removed ASAP and disposed of. Aside from disposal of the cakes, they are not touched after being placed in FC and is only opened to give a bit of fresh air 2-3 times a day. Where am I going wrong?
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lovingtickels
wit a engineringdegre wo neds tono how 2 spel


Registered: 04/10/07
Posts: 220
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Re: Question on full colonized cakes vs contams [Re: Saryn]
#7979464 - 02/04/08 07:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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this is not an answer or a suggestion just a question to add to yours. would soaking for shorter periods (6-12 hours) in the fridge with a 3% h202 do the trick?
-------------------- I never guess. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from. - Al Franken
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WWorker
...

Registered: 09/09/07
Posts: 395
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Re: Question on full colonized cakes vs contams [Re: lovingtickels]
#7979481 - 02/04/08 07:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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are you positive it is trich and not just bruising from dehydration? I threw out my first grow after coming home to blue growing up all of my cakes....I now know they were just thirsty.
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Yossarian22
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Re: Question on full colonized cakes vs contams [Re: WWorker]
#7979753 - 02/04/08 08:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Seconding WWorker's answer: did you try rubbing a Q-tip on the spots? If they rub off onto the Q-tip, it's mold and if not, it's just bruising.
Assuming the trich didn't get in while in the jars from a loose lip and/or a damaged or non-existent dry verm layer, maybe it would have helped to keep the dunked cakes in the refrigerator instead of relatively warm water? How's your general cleanliness? Do you use disinfectant spray and carefully clean your growing space? Are there any potential sources for mold growth nearby? Also, if it was trich, hydrogen peroxide would be useless: it's only effective as a treatment and not as a preventive measure against cobweb mold.
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Saryn
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Re: Question on full colonized cakes vs contams [Re: WWorker]
#7979755 - 02/04/08 08:22 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Positive it's tich, starts as white peach fuzz which overnight turns green, and its above the plane of the mycelium. It can be rubbed off and has a rotten smell.
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Saryn
Stranger

Registered: 11/16/07
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Re: Question on full colonized cakes vs contams [Re: Saryn]
#7979788 - 02/04/08 08:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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There was no signs while in the jar, no loose lips or anything. All cakes looked healthy after close inspections of each. As for cleanliness, I use air sanitizer as well as washing hands or latex gloves with 99% alcohol before even touching the cakes. The FC was cleaned very well with alcohol as well as bleach. There are no real sources of mold growth near by as I simply keep it on the floor in my closet. No food or plants of any sort have been in the room since the house was built.
I know the H202 is no good against tich however I did have a bout with cobweb a while back and thats why I'm using it, haven't seen any since.
Edited by Saryn (02/04/08 08:30 PM)
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The shroomy 1
Luminous beings surround me




Registered: 03/27/07
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Re: Question on full colonized cakes vs contams [Re: Saryn]
#7979808 - 02/04/08 08:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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My money is on the fact that the contamination occurred during the initial inoculation and you just didn't see it until you put it into the fruiting chamber and it started to sporulate. Trich looks just like mycelium until it sporulates.
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AMU Q&A thread.
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Saryn
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Re: Question on full colonized cakes vs contams [Re: The shroomy 1]
#7979924 - 02/04/08 08:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Hrm, just talked with my room mate who rolled the batch in question... said he used H202 instead of alcohol to clean his hands. Wonder if thats where it came in.
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Saryn
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Registered: 11/16/07
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Re: Question on full colonized cakes vs contams [Re: The shroomy 1]
#7979969 - 02/04/08 08:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
The shroomy 1 said: My money is on the fact that the contamination occurred during the initial inoculation and you just didn't see it until you put it into the fruiting chamber and it started to sporulate. Trich looks just like mycelium until it sporulates.
Could be but I somewhat doubt it. If there is one thing during the 3 months of attempts I have learned about growing mushrooms, its what tich looks like. That damn mold has ruined about 100 of my jars by now.
Unless it was just starting to grow just as I birthed.
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The shroomy 1
Luminous beings surround me




Registered: 03/27/07
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Re: Question on full colonized cakes vs contams [Re: Saryn]
#7979971 - 02/04/08 08:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Hmmm. Time to bring out the belt! LOL! I can't say for sure. Although, it seems like you have your shit together. I still say it was during inoculation.
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AMU Q&A thread.
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udok
Stranger???



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Re: Question on full colonized cakes vs contams [Re: Saryn]
#7981505 - 02/05/08 05:42 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Saryn said: ... There was no signs while in the jar, no loose lips or anything. All cakes looked healthy after close inspections of each. As for cleanliness, I use air sanitizer as well as washing hands or latex gloves with 99% alcohol before even touching the cakes. The FC was cleaned very well with alcohol as well as bleach. There are no real sources of mold growth near by as I simply keep it on the floor in my closet. No food or plants of any sort have been in the room since the house was built.
Pure ethanol is good to preserve molds and bacteria.(Slows down development, and when the alcohol evaporates ...) 70% ethanol must be used! Its mostly the water that kills 
Oh, and trichoderma is everywhere- in the fridge, on the wallpaper ...
Edited by udok (02/05/08 05:49 AM)
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Kold
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Re: Question on full colonized cakes vs contams [Re: udok]
#7981846 - 02/05/08 09:21 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
udok said:
Quote:
Saryn said: ... There was no signs while in the jar, no loose lips or anything. All cakes looked healthy after close inspections of each. As for cleanliness, I use air sanitizer as well as washing hands or latex gloves with 99% alcohol before even touching the cakes. The FC was cleaned very well with alcohol as well as bleach. There are no real sources of mold growth near by as I simply keep it on the floor in my closet. No food or plants of any sort have been in the room since the house was built.
Pure ethanol is good to preserve molds and bacteria.(Slows down development, and when the alcohol evaporates ...) 70% ethanol must be used! Its mostly the water that kills 
Oh, and trichoderma is everywhere- in the fridge, on the wallpaper ...
I've had problems with contamination as well and I only use 99% alcohol. Are you saying that I should always dilute it down to a lower concentration? Or that I should just buy lower concentration alcohol? Why is it the water that kills it?
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udok
Stranger???



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Alcohol as desinfectant [Re: Kold]
#7982420 - 02/05/08 12:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Concentrations by volume: Ethyl alcohol (Ethanol) 70 % v/v Propyl alcohol (Propanol) 50 % v/v Isopropyl alcohol (Isopropanol)60 % v/v
Lower concentrations require longer contact time.
High concentrations of alcohol make the cell membrane instantly impermeable,so that the alcohol concentration inside the cell is to low to be effective.
-------------------- And on the 7. day the creator designed the psychedelic drugs. Holy shit. Thats intelligent design far beyond my scope. Namaste
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The shroomy 1
Luminous beings surround me




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Re: Question on full colonized cakes vs contams [Re: Saryn]
#7982683 - 02/05/08 01:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Ok, Let's go back to the original post. Quote:
Ok so its been a while since I posted, got the incubation down perfect (last batch of 48 jars had only ONE!!!! with contamination)... however I have bumped into a new problem. Out of 20 jars I have so far birthed, only 3 have fruited without getting tich. My question is this, where is the contamination coming from?
Once again, you say that you have the incubation down perfect. (I have no doubt about that). You make no mention of your process prior to that. That is where your jars are most prone to contamination. Jar preparation and actual inoculation procedures are absolutely crucial. That is why I tend to lean toward the idea that the contamination was in the jars already. Trich is going to go through the same colonization process as mushroom mycelium . Trich doesn't produce a "Mushroom body", so when fruiting conditions are introduced it simply sporulates. It will look just like mycelium, except when Mushrooms start pinning and producing it's own vehicle to propagate, trich just goes straight into spore production.
Another question I had regarding your original post was concerning your humidification methods.
Quote:
The FC is humidified using a 100ml/1gal ratio of H202 to water.
You make no mention of how your FC is constructed. I'm left to imagine that you actually have temperature and humidity sensors that give you your data. No mention of perlite. I'm thinking you have 1 gal of standing water???!!! Is manual fanning the only way your providing FAE? In my opinion, 2-3 times a day may not be enough when you're talking about 20 cakes. A picture of the FC might clue us in to other problems.
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AMU Q&A thread.
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Saryn
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Registered: 11/16/07
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Re: Question on full colonized cakes vs contams [Re: The shroomy 1]
#7982755 - 02/05/08 01:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Sorry about that shroomy, lets see if I can describe the best I can all of what I do.
For substrate prep, jars are washed prior to use with peroxide then bleach. Then I follow the basic BRF mix, filling the jars to about an inch from the top. Rim is then wiped clean with a paper towel and dry verm is added on top as a buffer. Jars are sealed and PC'd for 60-90 min at 15-17psi. After PC, jars are moved into my glove box which has already been cleaned with alcohol and air sanitized.
For inoculation, needle is wiped with alcohol, flamed, and wiped again in between each jar its used to inoculate. Jar lids are all wiped with alcohol as I go. With the last batch, I used LC myc syringes that I prepared. The LC looked exactly as many of the posted pictures had shown as a clean LC. Jars are then moved to incubator.
The FC is a rubber maid tub with holes on all sides and lid with ~4" of perlite. Sitting right next to the FC is a 12" florescent light which is on a 12 hour/day timer. For humidity, I use a little personal ionizing humidifier which produces enough to flog the entire tub, but is also on a timer. For air exchange, I use the lid as a fan about 4-5 times a day. To measure temp and RH, I just use a cheep little electronic thermostat I got a walmart. And no, there is no standing water!
Edited by Saryn (02/05/08 01:38 PM)
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dogg8618
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Re: Question on full colonized cakes vs contams [Re: Saryn]
#8018509 - 02/13/08 04:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have the exact setup and I too am experiencing the very same problem.
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Saryn
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Re: Question on full colonized cakes vs contams [Re: dogg8618]
#8020117 - 02/13/08 10:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Decided to say screw it, not sure on how clean my closet is or how good the rig worked... so I let the cakes finish/die off, going to shampoo the carpet, Lysol the walls, and build a PMP style terrarium. Question on that though, is a slight amount of bleach in the water of the PMP a good or bad idea? Talking about a very low concentration, mainly to help clean the air thats being pumped in and to keep contams from growing in the water.
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dumbfounded1600
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Registered: 07/29/07
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Re: Question on full colonized cakes vs contams [Re: Saryn]
#8044784 - 02/19/08 08:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Saryn said: Ok so its been a while since I posted, got the incubation down perfect (last batch of 48 jars had only ONE!!!! with contamination)... however I have bumped into a new problem. Out of 20 jars I have so far birthed, only 3 have fruited without getting tich. My question is this, where is the contamination coming from?
Heres my process:
The cakes are perfectly healthy and 100% colonized before they are removed from the jars. The cakes are then left for 18-24 hours (depending on when I can get to them) in tap water at about 65F quickly followed by being rolled in verm and placed in to my FC. FC is kept at 72.5F and at 99-100%RH, with a florescent light on for 12 hours a day. The FC is humidified using a 100ml/1gal ratio of H202 to water. With the 3 that made it, it took about a week in the FC to start pinning and then 3 days for full growth which was great to watch! But, all the rest seem to get tich during the week prior to the point when pins start. Any cake which I can identify as having tich is removed ASAP and disposed of. Aside from disposal of the cakes, they are not touched after being placed in FC and is only opened to give a bit of fresh air 2-3 times a day. Where am I going wrong?
It's your sterile procedure that causing the contaminants. How are you providing Fresh Air Exchange? Don't throw away cakes, bury them 6 inches under.
Quote:
Saryn said: There was no signs while in the jar, no loose lips or anything. All cakes looked healthy after close inspections of each. As for cleanliness, I use air sanitizer as well as washing hands or latex gloves with 99% alcohol before even touching the cakes. The FC was cleaned very well with alcohol as well as bleach. There are no real sources of mold growth near by as I simply keep it on the floor in my closet. No food or plants of any sort have been in the room since the house was built.
I know the H202 is no good against tich however I did have a bout with cobweb a while back and thats why I'm using it, haven't seen any since.
THAT'S YOUR PROBLEM! Get it off the floor. 90% of all contaminants are caused by 1. Not enough Fresh Air Exchange...2. Contaminants that surface to the ground due to gravity. Take it off the floor and put it on a dresser or shelf!
Quote:
Saryn said: Sorry about that shroomy, lets see if I can describe the best I can all of what I do.
For substrate prep, jars are washed prior to use with peroxide then bleach. Then I follow the basic BRF mix, filling the jars to about an inch from the top. Rim is then wiped clean with a paper towel and dry verm is added on top as a buffer. Jars are sealed and PC'd for 60-90 min at 15-17psi. After PC, jars are moved into my glove box which has already been cleaned with alcohol and air sanitized.
For inoculation, needle is wiped with alcohol, flamed, and wiped again in between each jar its used to inoculate. Jar lids are all wiped with alcohol as I go. With the last batch, I used LC myc syringes that I prepared. The LC looked exactly as many of the posted pictures had shown as a clean LC. Jars are then moved to incubator.
The FC is a rubber maid tub with holes on all sides and lid with ~4" of perlite. Sitting right next to the FC is a 12" florescent light which is on a 12 hour/day timer. For humidity, I use a little personal ionizing humidifier which produces enough to flog the entire tub, but is also on a timer. For air exchange, I use the lid as a fan about 4-5 times a day. To measure temp and RH, I just use a cheep little electronic thermostat I got a walmart. And no, there is no standing water!
Get your jars out of the fucking incubator. There's no need to. They will colonize at the same time just a few days later at 75-78F. Anything beyond 83F will slow growth down and increase chances of thermophilics/contamination/bacteria. Incubation of darkness is the gayest thing i've ever heard. IME...as well as over half of the OMC community leaving them out in room temperature with regular lighting, when it comes time to pin it will pin more aggressively , and healthier. So what if it starts to pin. When it's ready to dunk simply put in some water and toss it in the fridge. We put it in the fridge to keep contaminants/bacteria at bay..They don't thrive in cold climates, They thrive in hot/warm climates like your incubation temp!
Edited by dumbfounded1600 (02/19/08 08:58 PM)
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Question on full colonized cakes vs contams [Re: dumbfounded1600]
#8045199 - 02/19/08 10:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Don't use peroxide on your cakes for anything but cobweb control. Peroxide is highly toxic to mushroom mycelium and shocks it, allowing the faster growing trichoderma to take over. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Jadis
..Just waituntil you seethe bats!


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Re: Question on full colonized cakes vs contams [Re: RogerRabbit]
#8045988 - 02/20/08 01:43 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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i just thought it was funny every person in here put h202 instead of h2o2 :P
-------------------- Do you realize that everyone you know someday will die? And instead of saying all of your goodbyes, Let them know you realize that life goes fast. It's hard to make the good things last. You realize the sun don't go down; It's just an illusion caused by the world spinnin' round.
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