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Offlineart
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Registered: 06/15/05
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Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Ron Paul's America?
    #7976011 - 02/03/08 11:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I still do not understand most of Ron Paul's economic policies, most of them seem like complete bullshit, so maybe all of the Paul fans can help clear some things up.

How would America work if Ron Paul ran it? This is a hypothetical situation, so don't worry about the practicality of changing things. I am NOT referring to any of his civil policies. I completely agree with him on civil issues, it is just his economics that I am confused about.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: art]
    #7976147 - 02/04/08 12:16 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

art said:
I still do not understand most of Ron Paul's economic policies, most of them seem like complete bullshit,




If it looks and smells and tastes like bullshit...


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7976195 - 02/04/08 12:34 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

well u c u bring all the troops home, that saves the US a trillion a year
so then we can get rid of the IRS
also we get rid of the war on drugs
theres another 500 billion
so we can lower sales tax
shit like that yo


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OfflineCubie
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Folding@home Statistics
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: Coaster]
    #7976205 - 02/04/08 12:36 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Fuckin right.



Ron paul for a better world.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: Coaster]
    #7977085 - 02/04/08 09:59 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
well u c u bring all the troops home, that saves the US a trillion a year
so then we can get rid of the IRS
also we get rid of the war on drugs
theres another 500 billion
so we can lower sales tax
shit like that yo




The next Ben Bernanke right there, Ladies and Gentlemen...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlineart
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Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 331
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: Coaster]
    #7977249 - 02/04/08 10:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
well u c u bring all the troops home, that saves the US a trillion a year
so then we can get rid of the IRS
also we get rid of the war on drugs
there's another 500 billion
so we can lower sales tax
shit like that yo





OK...so if he gets rid of the IRS then does that mean he will get rid of taxes? With all of his tax cuts that were stated in the other thread how does he expect to save social security? what about Medicare?

One of my main concerns is how he wants to get rid of the federal reserve. Can someone please explain how our country is going to run without it!? How would the aftermath of the sub prime market have worked without the Fed?


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: art]
    #7977268 - 02/04/08 11:00 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Why would he save Social Security/Medicare?

Those are completely anathema to everything he stands for...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlineart
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7977356 - 02/04/08 11:24 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

why?

and what about the fed? or the IRS? the sub prime crises?

and, "It is is unconstitutional" does not count.


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InvisibleMistaUNGA
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7977362 - 02/04/08 11:25 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Alan Greenspan > Ben Bernanke


--------------------
:gc:
Madtowntripper said:Or just give her a cloroform soaked rag and tell her it's ether!


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: art]
    #7977364 - 02/04/08 11:25 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Don't ask me, I think the guy is a loon.

I'm sure one of his supporters would be happy to give you a 2-page diatribe on the subject if you asked...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7977386 - 02/04/08 11:31 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Don't ask me, I think the guy is a loon.

I'm sure one of his supporters would be happy to give you a 2-page diatribe on the subject if you asked...




And I'm sure they will soon. :rolleyes:


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InvisibleMistaUNGA
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7977399 - 02/04/08 11:35 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Regarding the elimination of government programs and operations:

Programs (ie Social Security, Medicare etc) would STAY IN PLACE. Actually, because he is against things like taxing Social Security income, the payment would be higher. Now, the difference is this: by allowing privatization of retirement accounts, by letting the younger generation opt out of SS, we reduce the governmental hand on our futures. People ought to be able to (and smart enough!) to invest ON THEIR OWN. I personally can't fathom why people insist of getting a handout! But anyways, continuing on...

The various ABC organizations and other departments within the government (ie Dept of Education, IRS, DEA, and others) would be removed through attrition. This means that no jobs would be eliminated, rather no new hires. So let the people already working continue to do so, and when they're done, the Dept will be formally gone. Most functional capacities would be removed. For example, Ron Paul would cease the War on Drugs. The DEA would still exist, however, they would not be mandated to, for example, raid Medical Marijuana dispensaries in Los Angeles! (Sorry, I'm a patient in LA, and am OUTRAGED that they keep doing this to sick people!)

Any other questions, keep bringin' em! :rastamon:
See, I didn't get too long winded.


--------------------
:gc:
Madtowntripper said:Or just give her a cloroform soaked rag and tell her it's ether!


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: Le_Canard]
    #7977432 - 02/04/08 11:49 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:





And I'm sure they will soon. :rolleyes:




Doubtful. I think most paul supporters here see Art as a troll and won't bother. There are plenty of web-sites Art can search to understand Paul's economic Policy. Maybe Art is at least familiar with two of Paul's newly appointed economic advisers, MSM favorites Don Luskin and Peter Shiff, who support Pauls plan, to help him get a feel for where Paul stands.

No doubt, someone at www.ronpaulforums.com will be happy to take the time and energy to very thoroughly answer his questions if they are sincere.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlineart
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: MistaUNGA]
    #7977442 - 02/04/08 11:51 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

What about the IRS, or the Fed? does he want to completely get rid of taxes?


Thank you


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: art]
    #7977948 - 02/04/08 02:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

art said:
What about the IRS, or the Fed? does he want to completely get rid of taxes?


Thank you




How old are you? I'm sure that you've spent your life believing that 50% of everything you own needs to be given to the government for things to operate properly.

Social security will be phased out, because it's dead already. Old people who have spent their lives putting money into it won't get it back, because it's been gutted by inflation, and to fund other needless spending. That's why Paul's solution is to allow young people to opt out of it, and keep their money as their earn it.

Where in your constitution does it say that the federal government is obligated to provide a retirement plan for everyone?


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Offlineart
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: Minstrel]
    #7978403 - 02/04/08 04:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I am 19.

Social Security is in jeopardy but it is certainly not dead...well not yet anyways.

So the constitution needs to mention social security for it to be applicable?

So again how will our country work without the IRS, or Department of Education, the Fed, etc?

Quote:

Doubtful. I think most Paul supporters here see Art as a troll and won't bother. There are plenty of web-sites Art can search to understand Paul's economic Policy. Maybe Art is at least familiar with two of Paul's newly appointed economic advisers, MSM favorites Don Luskin and Peter Shiff, who support Pauls plan, to help him get a feel for where Paul stands.

No doubt, someone at www.ronpaulforums.com will be happy to take the time and energy to very thoroughly answer his questions if they are sincere.




How am I a troll? I have read some things on Ron Paul, but I still do not understand it, I do not want to go to another message board, I have been coming here for other information and it is convenient to stay in one place, how the fuck does that make me a troll? I have seen tons of people here talk about Ron Paul but not any real discussion on the applicability of his ideas to our modern society. It seems that people here take a lot of time and energy to talk about Ron Paul, so what is wrong with this topic?:rolleyes:


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: art]
    #7978518 - 02/04/08 04:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

the country will go on operating the way it did before those institutions
were implemented.

if you reduce the size of the federal government you correspondingly
reduce the government's cost and, in turn, their need to take 30-40%
of your annual earnings.

if you can implement something ridiculously simple like a sales tax or
a flat tax, then you don't need the bureaucracy that is the IRS.

furthermore, if you eliminate the department of education control over
education it becomes rightfully decentralized and put back in the hands of
the existing state and local entities responsible for education policy.

seriously, what does the IRS and/or DoE do for you today!?

what good is the FBI, CIA and NSA if they couldn't stop 9/11 before
stripping americans of long standing rights or otherwise eroding personal
privacy and liberty?

the federal government is a useless, self-serving leviathan that appears
to me to do more harm than good.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: art]
    #7978669 - 02/04/08 05:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

art said:
I am 19.

Social Security is in jeopardy but it is certainly not dead...well not yet anyways.

So the constitution needs to mention social security for it to be applicable?

So again how will our country work without the IRS, or Department of Education, the Fed, etc?

Quote:

Doubtful. I think most Paul supporters here see Art as a troll and won't bother. There are plenty of web-sites Art can search to understand Paul's economic Policy. Maybe Art is at least familiar with two of Paul's newly appointed economic advisers, MSM favorites Don Luskin and Peter Shiff, who support Pauls plan, to help him get a feel for where Paul stands.

No doubt, someone at www.ronpaulforums.com will be happy to take the time and energy to very thoroughly answer his questions if they are sincere.




How am I a troll? I have read some things on Ron Paul, but I still do not understand it, I do not want to go to another message board, I have been coming here for other information and it is convenient to stay in one place, how the fuck does that make me a troll? I have seen tons of people here talk about Ron Paul but not any real discussion on the applicability of his ideas to our modern society. It seems that people here take a lot of time and energy to talk about Ron Paul, so what is wrong with this topic?:rolleyes:




Your obvious trolling aside,  your country spent a few hundred without an income tax.  It's only about around the time that your military industrial complex came into being that the government went nuts.  They just slowly took more control over all aspects of your lives.  Now, the federal government is nothing but a means to implement the wishes of multi-national corporations, which, in most every respect, make up your life.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: Minstrel]
    #7978754 - 02/04/08 05:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

1. IRS was created in the earlier part of the last century. america had existed just fine without it for years. it was also implemented after failing to receive the required votes to make it constitutional.

2. the dept. of education is unconstitutional. education is one of those rights reserved to the states. the federal gov't messing with schools has led to awesome policies such as the No child left behind act which punishes poorer schools and rewards already rich ones. fair huh?

3. the fed was created so the federal gov't could spend more money. if you don't actually need to have wealth (ie gold) you can just print all the money you need. the explosion of the federal gov'ts size can be traced back to the time when we decided to switch out currency to funny money and to tax the people via the IRS.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: afoaf]
    #7978825 - 02/04/08 05:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

afoaf writes:

Quote:

what good is the FBI, CIA and NSA if they couldn't stop 9/11 before
stripping americans of long standing rights or otherwise eroding personal
privacy and liberty?




In all fairness to the FBI, CIA and NSA (none of whom bowl me over with their competence) there is nothing they could have done absent a prolonged and blatantly unconstitutional lockdown of the entire country and an enormous ongoing violation of civil liberties. Let's face it -- the bad guys got lucky this once. That happens sometimes. They kept things close to the vest and won a single battle. Admittedly, it was one hell of a battle, but it was a single battle nonetheless. And by winning that battle they fucked themselves.

Because now, instead of just lobbing a few cruise missiles into some deserted buildings in a desert somewhere a la Billy Bob Clinton, or wringing our hands over the unfairness of it all a la Jimmuh Carter, the US has actually sent a few tens of thousands of Islamic "martyrs" to their virgins, with more to come.



Phred


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Offlineart
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: Phred]
    #7979251 - 02/04/08 06:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I don't really think you can make the argument that because something worked x amount of years ago it would work now. I can see how many aspects of the government are not efficient, it just seems over zealous to say that all government is bad and should be eradicated, what about the office of federal student aid? Aren't there some things that the department of education is good for?

in regards to the federal reserve, if I remember correctly before the fed our economy was extremely volatile. It seems this past half century has gone very well in terms of the economy. It is scary to think about how the economy would have reacted with the sub prime crises without a strong central bank.

I am sorry if I am "trolling" I do not mean to troll, to tell you the truth I do not even know what that means. I come to the shroomery mostly for information on mushroom hunting, and other psychedelic stuff, but with the election I have been curious about the views people have here, being that the shroomery is a very "unique" place. Outside of the shroomery I have not met hardly any Ron Paul fans, hence my questions. I have endless conversations about McCain, and Clinton, but not Ron Paul. I do not have the time to read on all of Paul's ideas. This topic covers my main concern with Ron Paul, and is something that does not seem to be at all discussed here.


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InvisibleSoY
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: art]
    #7980227 - 02/04/08 09:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
the federal government is a useless, self-serving leviathan that appears
to me to do more harm than good.




:thumbup:

People greatly underestimate the importance and competence of state governments versus the federal government.


Edited by SoY (02/04/08 09:41 PM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: art]
    #7980361 - 02/04/08 09:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

This topic covers my main concern with Ron Paul, and is something that does not seem to be at all discussed here.





The Federal Reserve bank and it's ils pros/cons have been discussed to ad nauseam heights, depths and distances here in the past year and half. It pretty much wound down before you jumped in just less then 2 months ago.

In your first post here since you came back around, you asked the same questions and I saw lots of people gave you informational video links, wiki links, and graphs etc and you dismissed them all.

They wasted their time trying to help you understand because you clearly didn't want to.

Since when is wiki less credible then a shroomerites quick opinion? :confused:

You've mostly attacked Paul and or have masked questions about him in an Critical Attack Paul form and have made it clear, you haven't done your homework and don't want to do it and don't care to review material others who have done their homework have given to you.

There is a post search feature here and it's easy to see what you've been about in this Forum since you started posting last Dec.

If you believe the Federal Reserve is doing a great job and are here to convince people of that, knock your socks off and just be honest about that.

From reading your stuff, you seem to be under the impression that the Federal Reserve is great at keeping the market stable. If you were someone not afraid of homework and research, you would know by now that Bernake admitted the Federal Reserve CAUSED the Great Depression and apologized for it.

I also saw that you were trying to argue here in PAL, that gold is philosophically worthless. Take that to P&S. Here in PAL gold is globally trading at 904.30 an ounce.


Do you understand that your Federal reserve notes are backed by credit, created out of thin air debt? Do you even know that because the money is never created to pay off the interest, that the national debt can never truly even be paid off now under this system? We are endentured slaves to this growing debt forever like it or not now.

The federal reserve system is nothing more then a THIEF of the American people and the greatest money making scam created of all time.

Do yourself a favor and at least, thoroughly read through this link before you start asking such questions again. It's an easy one to comprehend for people admittedly not to swift with economics and financial policy.

http://www.6towns.com/driving/Billions.html

Mind you, that was written when are national debt was even lower, and they never got into discussing the scam of how the centralized banks of Asia, and Europe along with ours, play with their interest rates effecting the values of their currencies in ways where they  make killings on hedge funds. They can't loose because they know where the value of their currencies are going ahead of time. The market trading in currencies doesn't and gets screwed by manipulations forth coming they can not see or predict. The ways they siphon money off from us are mind boggling.

Then there is what Greenspan called the "shabby little secret of the wellfare statists" back in the 60s when he was promoting the gold standard before he sold us out and accepted the puppet job of Chair for their board, which I am sure they offered him just to shut him up.

Quote:

In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value. If there were, the government would have to make its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold. If everyone decided, for example, to convert all his bank deposits to silver or copper or any other good, and thereafter declined to accept checks as payment for goods, bank deposits would lose their purchasing power and government-created bank credit would be worthless as a claim on goods. The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.

This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard.




http://www.321gold.com/fed/greenspan/1966.html

Even if you dont read these links, I encourage others too.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlineart
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7980584 - 02/04/08 10:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Again I apologize for bringing up an already discussed topic, I almost always do a search first but I really don't know how to do a search for this. I was hoping to talk about more than just the Fed. I would like to get a picture of how a complete laissez faire system would work.
Not all of my questions were answered in the previous threads, most of them were just ignored. Many of the charts, and points were beside the question and proved nothing. For example the Great Depression, that was 70 years ago, it is remarkable how stable the economy has been since then...something that was not commonplace before the Fed I have also admitted that although the fed contributed to the Great Depression it was not the main reason, there were many. I don't think I have ever hidden my stance on the Fed.

The first link you provided seems to have been written in 1998. Wasn't there a budget surplus in 2001? It was George Bush that caused the deficit, not the Fed.
"Prior to 1913, America was a prosperous, powerful, and growing nation, at peace with its neighbors and the envy of the world. "
I am sorry but it is hard to value a document with statements like that. I will try and read the whole thing, but already I have found information which contradicts some of the other things I have read...by economists, not pastors.

Look, If I am being pedantic, and obnoxious I am really sorry. If people are sick of my viewpoints on Ron Paul then I will stop posting here. I am just fascinated by economics and politics and I feel that the best way to learn is through discussion, and teaching. Talking about these things is a great way to educate yourself. I thought it would be interesting to create a hypothetical laissez faire America, and talk about the ramifications of that.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: art]
    #7980622 - 02/04/08 10:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No need to shut up.

These people have 8 bajillion threads filled with their rhetoric.

If you want to ask questions in one, that is no problem at all.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlineart
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7980663 - 02/04/08 10:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

thank you


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OfflineCubie
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7980671 - 02/04/08 10:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Were just a big passionate movement.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: art]
    #7980841 - 02/04/08 11:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It's sad to see that there are human beings who can't conceive alternative paradigms, and as a result, have the audacity to ridicule such notions.

Please don't ridicule others.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: Poid]
    #7980890 - 02/04/08 11:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Hi, welcome to the Politics Forum.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineSmackshadow
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: Poid]
    #7980933 - 02/04/08 11:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

1. IRS was created in the earlier part of the last century. america had existed just fine without it for years. it was also implemented after failing to receive the required votes to make it constitutional.




That is absurd read the 16th amendment. The IRS is a government agency doing the business expressly stated in our amended constitution. More over our country wasn't doing just fine with out it. In fact do the the regressive taxation imposed by flat taxes there was major and devastating economic consequences.

Quote:

2. the dept. of education is unconstitutional. education is one of those rights reserved to the states. the federal gov't messing with schools has led to awesome policies such as the No child left behind act which punishes poorer schools and rewards already rich ones. fair huh




I have a great many concerns about the policies of the dept. of education. I might even say that it does need to be reduced in size. However the idea that it is unconstitutional is bogus. If the federal government is spending money on state run programs then the fed. government is well within its rights to set standards for the recipients of that money. Thus they need an agency to monitor those issues.

Quote:

3. the fed was created so the federal gov't could spend more money. if you don't actually need to have wealth (ie gold) you can just print all the money you need. the explosion of the federal gov'ts size can be traced back to the time when we decided to switch out currency to funny money and to tax the people via the IRS




No that is simply not true. Read about Alexander Hamilton and his central bank. It was created when we still had a gold standard. It was crushed by Andrew Jackson, but was later brought back as the Federal Reserve. Though I/We can point to several major economic disasters that occurred under the Fed's watch. I can think of many more that happened before it was re-created. More over the Federal reserve is not the sole determiner of the value of the dollar. A majority part of it's worth is set by the free market in a variety of currency exchanges. I could go on but I am sure most of what I have to say has been covered else where.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~


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Invisiblebonnahoo
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Is it time for a Revolution? [Re: Phred]
    #7981008 - 02/05/08 12:01 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I was thinking if Ron Paul doesnt win, I think its time for a serious revolution. I mean there are plenty of people that can get involved and help do something like this. I can tell you right now that if McCain gets in, this country is gonna go down the shit hole even farther.


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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Is it time for a Revolution? [Re: bonnahoo]
    #7981026 - 02/05/08 12:05 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

mccain will not get in


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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: Is it time for a Revolution? [Re: bonnahoo]
    #7981054 - 02/05/08 12:10 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think a change is coming whether Ron Paul gets voted into office or not. Our economy is on the decline, and more and more government institutions are getting bad rap from the population. Reform is the wave of the future, we just have to get all these fricken baby boomers out of office.


--------------------
Word to your mom.


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OfflineCubie
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Re: Is it time for a Revolution? [Re: Coaster]
    #7981060 - 02/05/08 12:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'm down for the revolution


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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: Is it time for a Revolution? [Re: Cubie]
    #7981113 - 02/05/08 12:23 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Vive le resistance!  :pirate:


--------------------
Word to your mom.


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OfflineSmackshadow
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Re: Is it time for a Revolution? [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #7981123 - 02/05/08 12:26 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"Liberals talk of the revolution like Conservatives talk about the rapture."


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~


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OfflineCubie
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Re: Is it time for a Revolution? [Re: Smackshadow]
    #7981146 - 02/05/08 12:33 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Them fukers have had us locked the fuck down since 1968.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: Smackshadow]
    #7981374 - 02/05/08 02:23 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Smackshadow said:
That is absurd read the 16th amendment.  The IRS is a government agency doing the business expressly stated in our amended constitution.  More over our country wasn't doing just fine with out it.  In fact do the the regressive taxation imposed by flat taxes there was major and devastating economic consequences.




Yes, but it isn't necessary to have federal income taxes when federal spending is limited. Most of our overseas expenditures are unnecessary. The idea that we should sacrifice the prosperity and well-being of our own country in order to promote prosperity and well-being across this planet by maintaining forces in hundreds of countries, spending billions meddling in internal affairs of other nations, and billions more subsidizing dictatorships is one that belies the nature of reality and the guiding principle of self-interest (unless you have an enormous ego that dictates that everything has to do with you and that you're some kind of God, which I think the United States is pretty guilty of :hehehe:).

I think it demonstrates the height of our lunacy when we refuse to stop subsdizing Israel because they our only ally in the Middle East, and that the need our protection, but then we send three times the resources to their neighbors, billions in funds and weapons, while simultaneously, allegedly promoting democracy and freedom in Iraq through war while we invest billions in a military dictator in Pakistan who overthrew an elected government. Bill Hicks had routines about this back when Bush Sr. was President, you know? "Pick up the gun!" :lol: Support Saddam, take him out, support Osama, take him out, support Muscharef, take him out... :nut:

The idea that the federal government needs the federal income tax is the real issue. The fact is that it doesn't if the federal government spent in accordance with the lack of its existence. We the people could decide its time to stop allowing the federal government to supercede state rights and tax us directly. The notion that it is necessary to have our income taxed by the federal government needs to be dispelled.

Quote:


If the federal government is spending money on state run programs then the fed. government is well within its rights to set standards for the recipients of that money.  Thus they need an agency to monitor those issues.




I believe there is an inherent problem in this. The federal government directly taxes the American people in order to have this money to offer the state governments in the first place, and then it creates a bureaucracy to regulate the apportioning of this money. If the federal government did not take this money directly from the American people's income, then the states would not need to be dependent upon the money the federal government took from its people.

What you state is all very true, but we should be questioning if it should be happening in the first place. The whole process serves as a detriment to the education of the American people because it wastes resources and supercedes the rights of the states. The idea that schools should be held accountable to federal bureaucrats is ridiculuous. The federal state does not need to exist like this in order for individuals to receive proper education. It really has nothing to do with education and everything to do with power and control. Parents and the educational system should have the power, as they are the ones who have the responsibility for the education and the children receiving it. With local and state government, people have the power to take care of education. The federal government is not necessary, and its role is detrimental.

Quote:


No that is simply not true.  Read about Alexander Hamilton and his central bank.  It was created when we still had a gold standard.  It was crushed by Andrew Jackson, but was later brought back as the Federal Reserve.




Thus the irony of Andrew Jackson making his appearance on the $20 bill... central bankers have a dark sense of humor, it would seem. :smirk:

Quote:


  Though I/We can point to several major economic disasters that occurred under the Fed's watch.  I can think of many more that happened before it was re-created.  More over the Federal reserve is not the sole determiner of the value of the dollar.  A majority part of it's worth is set by the free market in a variety of currency exchanges.  I could go on but I am sure most of what I have to say has been covered else where.




Exactly, depressions existed before the Federal Reserve and while we were on a gold standard. I think the main problem with the Federal Reserve itself isn't the fact that it exists, but simply the severe lack of oversight it is given. I don't really think that only using gold and silver as currency could work, but I do recognize the value of keeping some weight to a currency, as well as competing currencies.

The real thing to blame in all of this is American hegemony. Anyone who thought this could be continued in perpetuity is the problem. Mostly it is the federal government to blame, but the true responsibility lies with the American people. Its hard to place blame though, because mostly its simply a gradual movement that people become conditioned to, the people and the government itself. Its all due to a lack of awareness. People are quick to dismiss Ron Paul and his chances, but all he truly represents is realization of what is occuring. He has said himself that it isn't about himself (he was reluctant to run in the first place), but has stated that he is a conduit for this awareness.

We can't spend forever, we can't borrow forever, and we can't print forever. We can't exert our influence over the rest of the world like this forever because of the nature of reality. It takes energy to do so and our problems at home have resulted because of how much energy we put into the problems on the other side of the planet. Of course, the reality is that, one way or the other, it will stop. It already has begun to. The more conditions here in this country worsen, the more the people will demand that we pull ourselves back within our borders. The fact that Ron Paul has received so much support is a testament to how fast this is happening.

The rest of the world is more than ready to take care of itself, as we've made them all rich through our subsidization and trying to take care of all of their problems for them. China, India, and Russia will surpass the United States as world powers, and Europe is strong, stable, and will benefit from the growth of these other nations. Even Africa will likely benefit from China investing in it.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSmackshadow
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7981394 - 02/05/08 02:45 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I am not going to disagree with you that the USA is spending way to much money on what I consider pointless endeavors. However, I do disagree with you that the IRS and the income tax should be kept. If we want to lower our spending then let us make the hard decisions first. Cut spending to the military industrial complex. Cut spending on the war on drugs. Cut half of the spending on our criminal justice system. Pay down the national debt. Then if we have huge revenue left over cut taxes.

But if we are going to cut taxes, lets cut sales tax first, then property tax second. Then lets lower income tax.

As for education I believe that the federal should be involved to an extent. They should help set minimum standards for school, give block grants to struggling institutions, and test (at least to some extent) that our schools are preforming well. Why do I believe this? Because in order to limit the barriers of entry to segments of the labor market, we need at least some standardization of education.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~


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Offlinedjnoktirnal
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: Minstrel]
    #7982050 - 02/05/08 10:24 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

you are right on. But it is hard to convince those getting free money. Hell, it's hard for me, knowing by voting for ron paul i am voting against the grants i get for school. but i know that he is right, even if it means no more free money. The thing is, with real money and less taxes and less inflation, and less regulation ie more freedom and less government, i probably wouldn't need the handout to go to school. end the welfare-police-political campaign based economy. taxes should be on consumption, not production. a strong economy produces goods and services and sells them to the world, an economy that bases its success on how much money we are borrowing and spending, and spending, is destined to fail. every notice that the more money we spend, the better they say the economy is doing? VOTE RON PAUL


--------------------
WWJDWWMD's?

What Would Jesus Do With Weapons of Mass Destruction?


Edited by djnoktirnal (02/05/08 10:30 AM)


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Offlineart
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: Smackshadow]
    #7982057 - 02/05/08 10:25 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I agree with you completely smackshadow. The problems of our budget deficit came about with George Bush. We had a huge expected surplus in 2001.

How would the sub prime crises have played out with Ron Paul's policies?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Ron Paul's America? [Re: art]
    #7984922 - 02/05/08 10:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

art said:
I agree with you completely smackshadow. The problems of our budget deficit came about with George Bush. We had a huge expected surplus in 2001.

How would the sub prime crises have played out with Ron Paul's policies?




Don't worry about it. Paul's views on social change FAR outwiegh whatever economic policy he has. It's not like our economy is going to completely disintegrate; if there's a president in charge, and it's his job to fix the economy, he's going to do his job. Social change is much more a priority these days than greed.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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