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Droz
Love of Life



Registered: 10/15/00
Posts: 2,746
Loc: Floorida
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
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Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes.
#7972997 - 02/03/08 01:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I believe that we should have the right to use any substance we want.
My drug use has been and always will be for spiritual purposes.
Is there anyway we can bypass the laws and write some sort of document that says we can use drugs for spiritual purposes, that would leave the feds to not involve themselves in our spiritual drug use?
What do you think?
Peace, Droz
-------------------- Evolution of Time.
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Senor_Doobie
Snake Pit Champion



Registered: 08/11/99
Posts: 22,678
Loc: Trump Train
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: Droz]
#7973020 - 02/03/08 01:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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The only document that would do it would be a court ruling.
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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Senor_Doobie
Snake Pit Champion



Registered: 08/11/99
Posts: 22,678
Loc: Trump Train
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: Senor_Doobie]
#7973037 - 02/03/08 01:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: Droz]
#7973068 - 02/03/08 01:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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No, it shouldn't be about spirituality or anything like that. I think that those who want to use drugs (any drug), should be free to do it, no matter the purpose, even if they just want to get "fucked up". This issue should be about one's FREEDOM to do as they wish with their own bodies. No law should interfere with that, and using "spirituality" as a motive is just a cliche and a form of elitism in my opinion.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7973072 - 02/03/08 01:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: No, it shouldn't be about spirituality or anything like that. I think that those who want to use drugs (any drug), should be free to do it, no matter the purpose, even if they just want to get "fucked up". This issue should be about one's FREEDOM to do as they wish with their own bodies. No law should interfere with that, and using "spirituality" as a motive is just a cliche and a form of elitism in my opinion.
Couldn't have said it better myself. If some religious group gets a right to use that other people do not, that is the opposite of "no state supported religion". No body should get any special privileges based on their faith or lack of faith.
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Droz
Love of Life



Registered: 10/15/00
Posts: 2,746
Loc: Floorida
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: DieCommie]
#7973256 - 02/03/08 02:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Well fuck, I just want to use drugs without being harrased by the government.
-------------------- Evolution of Time.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: Droz]
#7973267 - 02/03/08 02:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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That's something else. Why hide behind reasons? People are unaware that we encourage enforcing interdictions because we create too many excuses for who we are.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7973580 - 02/03/08 03:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'll put in my two cents.
I would ideally like to see a libertarian society. The law of equal liberty being the only law that would exist. Every person is free to obtain property by voluntary exchange without limit. The only activities limited are activities where a person forcefully deprives another person of life or property. So theft, fraud, murder would be a violation of the law of equal liberty and prohibited. Possession and use of drugs would not be a violation of the law of equal liberty and would be permitted. In a voluntary society conditions may be demanded for association, such as drug tests for employment. This is not a violation of equal liberty and would probably be widely used.
Equal liberty applied to the State itself would prohibit all taxation, even the State's claim on a monopoly of physical force in a geographical area would have no basis.
People are not made moral by laws against vice. Only the power of a renewed soul can give a new nature. Political laws will never accomplish this.
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Cracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper




Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,808
Loc: Swamp
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: fivepointer]
#7974039 - 02/03/08 04:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said: I'll put in my two cents.
I would ideally like to see a libertarian society. The law of equal liberty being the only law that would exist. Every person is free to obtain property by voluntary exchange without limit. The only activities limited are activities where a person forcefully deprives another person of life or property. So theft, fraud, murder would be a violation of the law of equal liberty and prohibited. Possession and use of drugs would not be a violation of the law of equal liberty and would be permitted. In a voluntary society conditions may be demanded for association, such as drug tests for employment. This is not a violation of equal liberty and would probably be widely used.
Equal liberty applied to the State itself would prohibit all taxation, even the State's claim on a monopoly of physical force in a geographical area would have no basis.
People are not made moral by laws against vice. Only the power of a renewed soul can give a new nature. Political laws will never accomplish this.
That's ironic
-------------------- The best way to live is to be like water For water benefits all things and goes against none of them It provides for all people and even cleanses those places a man is loath to go In this way it is just like Tao ~Daodejing
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: Cracka_X]
#7974277 - 02/03/08 05:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Like my daddy always says "you can't legislate morality." He may have ripped that offa someone else.
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7974562 - 02/03/08 06:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Murder is illegal because its immoral. Theft is illegal because its immoral. Speeding is illegal because it puts peoples lives at risk, which is immoral. Even pot is illegal because some people think its immoral.
I would argue that all laws are legislations of morality.
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evolprim
human



Registered: 05/07/06
Posts: 1,226
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: Droz]
#7974589 - 02/03/08 06:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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i believe that being high is fun as hell, and no one should tell me i cant have fun if its not hurting anyone else.
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backfromthedead
Activated


Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,592
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: evolprim]
#7976958 - 02/04/08 09:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think Brazil has an Ayahuasca Church.
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: backfromthedead]
#7976964 - 02/04/08 09:15 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Two commandments for the molecular age:
1. Thou shalt not alter the consciousness of thy fellow men.
2. Thou shalt not prevent thy fellow man from altering his or her own consciousness.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: AlteredAgain]
#7977581 - 02/04/08 12:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I hope everyone knows what's 'good' for oneself. I can't assume it. So I propose a concept of 'a little clue to help' ?! On the other side, maybe everything eachother does is what he has to do to experience to get that 'clue' which can bring him 'forward' in his own view. The 'clue to help' can bring a bit of free space for decision [edit:from inside and from outside, but it might be the same]. But this topic is quite sticky 
Edited by BlueCoyote (02/04/08 01:13 PM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7977592 - 02/04/08 12:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Education. Even though I think that this shouldn't be an obligation, as everyone has the possibility to inform themselves. So I guess that this help would simply mean abolishing the disinformation provided by the anti drug campaigns and similar psychotic activities.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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pattern
multiplayer


Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: Droz]
#7977601 - 02/04/08 12:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Droz said: I believe that we should have the right to use any substance we want.
My drug use has been and always will be for spiritual purposes.
Is there anyway we can bypass the laws and write some sort of document that says we can use drugs for spiritual purposes, that would leave the feds to not involve themselves in our spiritual drug use?
What do you think?
Peace, Droz
One of the first things you might want to consider is to stop calling them "drugs". You will never convince anyone, except like-minded folks, that "drugs" could be used for spiritual use. The materialistic association with the term is simply too ingrained to overcome.
-------------------- man = monkey + mushroom
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: pattern]
#7977680 - 02/04/08 01:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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entheogens = psychoactive substances used in a religious or shamanic context.
clinical medicines = substances or procedures used in physical treatment or psychological therapy.
would be a good place to start for definitions.
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OneWhoHasSeen
Temporal Anomaly



Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 301
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 11 years, 8 days
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: fivepointer]
#7978589 - 02/04/08 05:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said: Every person is free to obtain property by voluntary exchange without limit. The only activities limited are activities where a person forcefully deprives another person of life or property.
You have overlooked a huge weakness in this argument that is unfortunately a plague in the modern world.
What about scams?
What if I am deceived, convinced into giving something voluntarily that I would not normally give away. Money? Property? Life? Freedom?
Rule of the mob, charismatic dictators, these are just examples of the evils that can stem from words such as "voluntary"
Quote:
AlteredAgain said:Two commandments for the molecular age:
1. Thou shalt not alter the consciousness of thy fellow men.
2. Thou shalt not prevent thy fellow man from altering his or her own consciousness.
But we alter the consciousness of our fellow man all the time. When we get angry at them, we change them. When we love them, we change them.
What if that fellow man wants to alter his own consciousness in a way that is harmful to us? Do we not have a right to defend ourselves?
Mushroomtrip had it right I think, education. I personally think that we need to agree to separate drugs that are harmful to others and ourselves with entheogens that are beneficial to the human mind and soul.
Heavily addicting and harmful drugs like heroin, cocain, PCP, nicotine, and alcohol (for examples) need to still be illegal or restricted and our people taught about the dangers of entering into such drugs. I agree that hospitals should be no-arrest zones for people who want to shoot up, etc. with clean needles and medical help nearby. This helps reduce the addicts possibility to hurt themselves and others.
However, entheogens like pot, mushrooms, acid, ecstacy, and DMT need to be legalized. Again, respect and proper use of these drugs need to be taught to our people. Then and only then can we make the right decision on which way to go.
Of course, this is just my opinion.
-------------------- A Temporal Anomaly
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appleorange
Rainbow Technician



Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: OneWhoHasSeen]
#7978615 - 02/04/08 05:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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If psychedelic drugs were to be made legal, some very serious conditions would need to be set in place.
Can you imagine something like lsd being over the counter? The world would fall apart.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: OneWhoHasSeen]
#7981352 - 02/05/08 02:10 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Heavily addicting and harmful drugs like heroin, cocain, PCP, nicotine, and alcohol (for examples) need to still be illegal or restricted and our people taught about the dangers of entering into such drugs. I agree that hospitals should be no-arrest zones for people who want to shoot up, etc. with clean needles and medical help nearby. This helps reduce the addicts possibility to hurt themselves and others.
Personally I think that all drugs should be legal. Yes, they are more addicting and can do more "harm", but this is no reason to keep them illegal. People need to take this decision for themselves, not ave a nanny telling them what is good to do or not. People will never learn to be responsible for their actions, they will never learn or grow as long as our world will function on prohibitions. Yes, I think that some people will overuse these drugs and end up addicted, ill or dead. But that's just life, people need to learn that there are consequences for their actions. In time, some people will learn to be responsible about their drug use (no matter the substance) while other will keep making mistakes. Just like some people learn how to interact with those around them in a healthy and fruitful manner, make strong and meaningful connections with them, while others will NOT learn all that all their life and all their human interactions will become a train wreck of negative emotions. BUT people must be free to make this choice on their own.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: appleorange]
#7981371 - 02/05/08 02:19 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
appleorange said: If psychedelic drugs were to be made legal, some very serious conditions would need to be set in place.
Can you imagine something like lsd being over the counter? The world would fall apart.
Maybe maybe not. We have insufficient data in order to reach any kind of conclusion, but even if there's a possibility for this to happen, it is still not sufficient reason to make it illegal. What about those who are indeed responsible enough to know how to safely use them? Should they pay for someone else's stupidity? Those who are unable to be responsible about their drug use will also not be responsible with any other aspect of their lives, so chances are that they will end up not so good anyways. Should they be interdicted to... live, just because these are high chances for them to screw up?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: Droz]
#7981409 - 02/05/08 02:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Droz said: I believe that we should have the right to use any substance we want.
We do have the right, as we are sovereign individuals, and most of us practice that right. Of course, there are institutions that would infringe upon your rights by imposing consequences for doing so. They don't have the right, they do it anyways, but its not a question of whether or not we should have the right - we already do.
Quote:
Is there anyway we can bypass the laws and write some sort of document that says we can use drugs for spiritual purposes, that would leave the feds to not involve themselves in our spiritual drug use?
We shouldn't have to, but unless we are to face undue consequences imposed upon us by others for doing so, this might be an option, as there have already been ways made through which these institutions will not impose these undue consequences upon someone for practicing these freedoms, through their acknowledgement of the freedom of religion.
We get our rights as individuals, and not through any collective identities, but one step along the way to having our rights recognized might be through the freedom of religion. We need a multi-pronged approach. Securing the ability to freely practice these rights without the intervention of the government through their recognition of our religious right to do so (we have more than one right to use drugs ) would be progress. As more people had positive experiences with drugs in a suitable, responsible setting, public perspective of drug use would shift, as we would have evidence that drug usage, in itself, is not inherently detrimental to human beings, in a recognized context (freedom of religion). Couple this with the recognize format of psychological therapy applications, another avenue through which public perspective can be improved, as well as generating real evidence.
Finally, as public perspective continues to shift, as older generations die off, leaving behind their misconceptions, change on the legislative front (which is already beginning to occur) will open the door to the ultimate success - the recognition that we are sovereign individuals with the right do with ourselves what we want. We have these rights all along, but it takes progress to have this universally recognized, and there are avenues to expedite change.
I believe the United States government recognizes the rights of the Native American church to use peyote, as well as some other organization's right to use ayahusca. Start searching there.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Freedom of religion; The use of drugs for spiritual purposes. [Re: fivepointer]
#7981414 - 02/05/08 03:01 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said: I would ideally like to see a libertarian society. The law of equal liberty being the only law that would exist. Every person is free to obtain property by voluntary exchange without limit. The only activities limited are activities where a person forcefully deprives another person of life or property. So theft, fraud, murder would be a violation of the law of equal liberty and prohibited. Possession and use of drugs would not be a violation of the law of equal liberty and would be permitted. In a voluntary society conditions may be demanded for association, such as drug tests for employment. This is not a violation of equal liberty and would probably be widely used.
Equal liberty applied to the State itself would prohibit all taxation, even the State's claim on a monopoly of physical force in a geographical area would have no basis.
People are not made moral by laws against vice. Only the power of a renewed soul can give a new nature. Political laws will never accomplish this.
This is the greatest post I have seen you make, if you don't mind me saying so.
The free market would likely eliminate drug tests for employment as drug usage became to be consensually perceived as more responsible. What would really secure this is individuals demonstrating that their drug usage doesn't diminsh their ability to be productive in work. In fact, in personal, first-hand experience, it can often enhance productivity. A drug test is a limited tool to obtain information regarding worker productivity, the simple fact that someone has used drugs recently doesn't produce any real understanding regarding whether or not they would be productive, so it will get dropped by the wayside as reality progresses and evolves.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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