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OfflineMadtowntripper
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I Don't Understand Pacifists...
    #7970081 - 02/02/08 07:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Don't they realize that their little philosophy only works if *everyone* is pacifist? And that as soon as you have one person willing to use force to push their ideas on everyone else, that at that point you can either acquiesce and go quietly into that good night, or you can fight.

There are obviously groups out there, other than the United States Boogeyman, who are willing to use force to subjugate peace-loving people around the world.

So how can anyone just advocate that we sit back in our country and do nothing while people are slaughtered all over the globe.

What kind of real policy is this?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970144 - 02/02/08 07:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Read up on Ghandi. The British, especially civilians, but some soldiers didn't have the stomach to kill non-violent Indians.

Once the British left, the Muslims, who worked with Ghandi to remove the British, told Ghandi they did have the stomach to kill every last infidel that stood in the way of a Islamic state.


Edited by YidakiMan (02/02/08 07:36 PM)


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: YidakiMan]
    #7970159 - 02/02/08 07:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

What happened next door in Pakistan at the same time?

And why does India feel the need to have a huge conventional army and an array of nuclear arms?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970383 - 02/02/08 08:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

That was the birth of Pakistan. That is the answer to both your questions.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: YidakiMan]
    #7970404 - 02/02/08 08:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

There you go.

So pacifism didn't work, even in your idealistic scenario.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970450 - 02/02/08 08:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Most people only know of Ghandi and India what was in the movie and thus see the situation through rose-colored glasses.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970460 - 02/02/08 08:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yep. That is what I've been talking about in the other thread. People that think if the US turns into a bunch of hippies then the entire world will be peaceful is straight up bullshit. Those people do not know their history.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970461 - 02/02/08 08:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I agree. Certainly there are some cases where pacifism works better and there are some cases where violence works better.

Sticking to either one as an ideology instead of looking at each case separately is ignorant.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: DieCommie]
    #7970483 - 02/02/08 08:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think violence is an ideal solution, nor do I think it works in all cases. However, pacifism ONLY works if your opponent is unwilling to use force.

Otherwise, you suffer whatever fate they choose.

If your opponent is serious, pacifism is completely worthless.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970506 - 02/02/08 08:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yep. Depends on the situation. And in terms of the US and world affairs complete pacifism is a very bad idea.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970510 - 02/02/08 08:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Pacifism ONLY works if your opponent is unwilling to use force.

Otherwise, you suffer whatever fate they choose.

If your opponent is serious, pacifism is completely worthless.


I completely agree. If they are willing to shoot people in the streets, pacifism doesnt work. In the american civil rights movement, pacifism worked. Thats because the police were not willing to shoot people in the streets. They used dogs, water hoses, beating and intimidation but stopped short of shooting people down. The same thing happened in India I would guess.

Think of the revolutions of 1989. The armies were not willing to shoot civilians down, and county after country cast off communism EXCEPT not in china where the army was willing to and did shoot civilians in the street. Result: no peaceful revolution in china.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970564 - 02/02/08 08:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

A true pacifist is very rare. Jesus was one and yes, he let himself be crucified.

I think most pro peace types, though they would prefer to reason through problems with others, have no big issue with resorting to violent self defence if necessary to their surival.

Someone who truly would let someone physically beat them to a pulp without physically fighting back on principle is rare.

Can you be specific about exactly who and what you are reffering to madtown?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineHighHat
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7971352 - 02/03/08 12:02 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Pacifism is just another one of those pretty concepts that looks good on paper and works to a degree, but due to our psychotic nature, fails to work with humans for every situation.

I don't think there is a single governmental/conflict model that is perfect, except some freakish blend of every 'pure' concept.

I'm too tired to do any research, but does it seem like 'Muslim' states don't want to get past 3rd world standards?

It also seems to me that every time a 'wealthy' country tries to reach out and help an underdeveloped nation, the wealthy country ends up massively screwing the underdeveloped country over by introducing technologies that the latter is not ready for.

Is it going too far to suggest that wealthy countries should spend their money developing a way to get off the planet and find a new home and let the underdeveloped nations fight it out and bring themselves up to par without wealthy countries interfering?

Ok, its far fetched (but not too far), but you get the concept right?


--------------------
Have you ever felt like you were wearing a hat, but you weren't?

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" -Letter from the Pennsylvania Assembly, November 11, 1755

This profile is strictly for role-playing. Any alleged association with illegal activities is purely fictional. Any images depicting illegal activities are photo-shopped or stolen.


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: HighHat]
    #7971540 - 02/03/08 01:09 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Pacifism is the opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes or gaining advantage. Pacifism covers a spectrum of views ranging from the belief that international disputes can and should be peacefully resolved; to calls for the abolition of the institutions of the military and war; to opposition to any organization of society through governmental force (anarchist or libertarian pacifism); to rejection of the use of physical violence to obtain political, economic or social goals; to the condemnation of force except in cases where it is absolutely necessary to advance the cause of peace (pacifism); to opposition to violence under any circumstance, including defense of self and others.

From Wikipedia.

Pacifism, like Anarchism is widely misunderstood and often subject to the Straw Man & Slippery Slope treatments.

A. Of course, you can overdo anything.


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: HighHat]
    #7972188 - 02/03/08 09:47 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

HighHat said:
I'm too tired to do any research, but does it seem like 'Muslim' states don't want to get past 3rd world standards?




It is a lot more complicated than that. States like Iran, former Iraq, the UAE, and Kuwait are very advanced nations, but the older generation and the moralists strive to keep things the way they are or return them to traditional islamic values. The same thing happens in our country, the elder generation wants things to stay the way they were and the born-agains want to return our country to traditional Christian values.

But the thing is, in the middle east, if you don't live in the city you are born into a tribe of nomadic herdsmen. There is farmland up to a mile or two away from the rivers, they are canaled and irrigated. But if you don't live in the city or near a river, the only thing for you is your herd of goats. There is no way to change that. Electricity? Computers? How about running water first.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7972505 - 02/03/08 11:31 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i don't understand conflict.

conflict is used primarily when people just can't get their way. since they can't get their way their own egocentric personality takes over because they think that only they matter and hurting other people is okay as long as they get what they want in the end. instead of using the brain they have and figuring out a way to resolve a problem in an intellectual way they revert to basic instincts.

the original poster is correct though. who would want someone to be a pacifist? i would much rather have the whole world be full of egocentric assholes who would rather fight and hurt people than talk out their problems. maybe the next time i get angry i'll just go kill someone. after all conflict is natural isn't it? the strong must dominate the weak. heck while we are at it lets kill minority groups that we don't like just because they are different. especially Buddhists because they are pacifists. the nazi's had it right. violence is the only real way to solve problems. if someone disagrees with you, just kill or hurt them until they agree with you. another example would be china fixing their currency against ours. this policy is obviously hurting the US economy but china won't cooperate with our requests. if i was president i would have nuked china over this disagreement a long time ago. after all talking this problem out is just stupid. illegal imigrants? just nuke mexico, problem solved. they can't immigrate illegaly if they don't exist anymore. maybe the world would be a better place if we all just solved our problems violently. peace obviously fails in every instance. i mean look at Gandhi in india. he totally failed to free india from british rule. now if ghandi had just tried to fight the british militarily india wouldn't be under british rule today. oh wait, he did use pacifist means to free india. what about MLK? blacks are still seperate but equal because he didn't use violence to get his message across. oh wait, MLK actually used peaceful demonstrations to get the laws changed. well i guess peace works.

lol at madtowntripper. pacifism > madtowndumbass


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7972566 - 02/03/08 11:46 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

If you read a bit further down than the first post, you'll see that we've already discussed Ghandi and how his pacifistic ideas only worked in that instance because the British would not use serious force.

What happened when they came up against an entity, Pakistan, that would?

Several huge wars, some of the biggest armies on the planet, and dozens of nuclear weapons pointed at each other across a border that is rife with tension and occasional bursts of deadly violence.

It Doesn't Work.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7972579 - 02/03/08 11:48 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

lol at madtowntripper. pacifism > madtowndumbass




There's no reason to behave like a child.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7972659 - 02/03/08 12:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

uh the violence between india and pakistan is not pacifism it is violence. if they were using peaceful means to resolve their problems there would be no need for their military. but they are using the path of violence, hence the military buildup between the two countries. gandhi and his peaceful means of freeing india did not start the conflict between pakistan and india. british colonialism did. you are doing a poor job of identifying the source of conflict in this instance.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7972737 - 02/03/08 12:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It's mainly because you misunderstand his argument. He never said pacifism is bad. He said it's not practical policy.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7972832 - 02/03/08 12:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

the only time that pacifism is practical is when it is not a means to an end but an end in itself.


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7973379 - 02/03/08 02:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

What a ridiculous false dichotomy. Pacifism isn't practical? Well then clearly the only answer is total war with anyone who disagrees with you.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: YidakiMan]
    #7973396 - 02/03/08 02:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So the only options in your mind are pacifism or total war?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7973551 - 02/03/08 02:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It was OZ's proposal, that if pacifism isn't practical then the only other option must be total war. Then he "proved" that pacifism is practical by showing that MLK achieved his goals and so did Ghandi.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: YidakiMan]
    #7973911 - 02/03/08 04:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

its not a dichotomy i'm trying to set up. i was just showing how stupid it is to solve problems using violence. trying to solve any problem by using violence is just stupid. as soon as you accept that violence is a legitimate option to solve problems you have screwed yourself. its an attitude our society has which is why we have those 10 people getting killed in a store over the weekend. its why drug dealers kill eachother over "turf" and this type of mentality is then expressed as well through our foreign policy. preemptive war with iraq, military bases all over the world, and the biggest military budget in the world. as long as violence is an option it will continue to happen. we have to change our way of thinking before violence and war become a memory instead of a reality. you all don't want that to happen. keep war and violence as legitimate options. your way of thinking shapes the world. you may not think so but it does.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7974103 - 02/03/08 04:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Don't they realize that their little philosophy only works if *everyone* is pacifist? And that as soon as you have one person willing to use force to push their ideas on everyone else, that at that point you can either acquiesce and go quietly into that good night, or you can fight.

There are obviously groups out there, other than the United States Boogeyman, who are willing to use force to subjugate peace-loving people around the world.

So how can anyone just advocate that we sit back in our country and do nothing while people are slaughtered all over the globe.

What kind of real policy is this?




I not only don't understand pacifists, I don't understand people who want nothing but war and believe that force is the only way to deal with conflict.

There might have been a time in this country when we minded our own business and weren't about controlling everything outside our borders. And if somebody fucked with us they got a fistfull.

Unfortunately the days of that type of patriotism and honor and humanity seem to be history.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7974108 - 02/03/08 04:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
we have to change our way of thinking before violence and war become a memory instead of a reality. you all don't want that to happen.




Don't put words in my mouth, you're still using a false dichotomy. Just because I'm not a pacifist doesn't mean I don't believe in diplomacy.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: YidakiMan]
    #7974195 - 02/03/08 05:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

what false dichotomy? as long as violence is an option it will continue to happen. taking anything other than a pacifist standpoint is basically saying that violence is an option. just because you believe in diplomacy doesn't mean you are always opposed to violence. if you were always opposed to violence you would be a pacifist.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7976574 - 02/04/08 05:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Violence is an option.

If someone strikes you in the face and you going to stand down?


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7976641 - 02/04/08 06:26 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)


I have, it's unwise to try and strike at everything that hits you.


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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7976978 - 02/04/08 09:19 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
i don't understand conflict.

conflict is used primarily when people just can't get their way. since they can't get their way their own egocentric personality takes over because they think that only they matter and hurting other people is okay as long as they get what they want in the end. instead of using the brain they have and figuring out a way to resolve a problem in an intellectual way they revert to basic instincts.

the original poster is correct though. who would want someone to be a pacifist? i would much rather have the whole world be full of egocentric assholes who would rather fight and hurt people than talk out their problems. maybe the next time i get angry i'll just go kill someone. after all conflict is natural isn't it? the strong must dominate the weak. heck while we are at it lets kill minority groups that we don't like just because they are different. especially Buddhists because they are pacifists. the nazi's had it right. violence is the only real way to solve problems. if someone disagrees with you, just kill or hurt them until they agree with you. another example would be china fixing their currency against ours. this policy is obviously hurting the US economy but china won't cooperate with our requests. if i was president i would have nuked china over this disagreement a long time ago. after all talking this problem out is just stupid. illegal imigrants? just nuke mexico, problem solved. they can't immigrate illegaly if they don't exist anymore. maybe the world would be a better place if we all just solved our problems violently. peace obviously fails in every instance. i mean look at Gandhi in india. he totally failed to free india from british rule. now if ghandi had just tried to fight the british militarily india wouldn't be under british rule today. oh wait, he did use pacifist means to free india. what about MLK? blacks are still seperate but equal because he didn't use violence to get his message across. oh wait, MLK actually used peaceful demonstrations to get the laws changed. well i guess peace works.




lsol at madtowntripper. pacifism > madtowndumbass





this is rather silly


have you entertained the thought that in a conflict perhaps both people feel their in the right


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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7977425 - 02/04/08 11:46 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Violence is an option.

If someone strikes you in the face and you going to stand down?




depends on how big the other guy is :biggrin:


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7978347 - 02/04/08 04:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i've been punched in the face. it happened to me in front of a class my freshman year in high school. i just stood my ground and looked at the guy as he egged me on to fight back. i walked away and sat down.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7978362 - 02/04/08 04:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Good for you!

You're lucky thats as far as he was willing to take it.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7978774 - 02/04/08 05:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think in regards to pacifism there are two important points:

Using force to get things done usually only works in the short term, takes tons of recources, and then comes around to bite you in the ass. The Chinese wasted far more time and recources than the Tibetans because they have to maintain their rule with a costly iron fist, and constantly cover their tracks, while all the Dalai Lama has to do is tell the truth and practice peaceful protest. I think in the end, if it is a clash of wills the Tibetans will certainly outlast the Chinese because their policy isn't so unstable and high maintainence.

It is true that pacifism in a global sense requires a large degree of cooperation that may be difficult or impossible given how insane the world is. However, I believe that it matters in terms of a person's individual values. If you see violence as madness and stupidity, regardless of whether you will WIN it is way of life you don't want to live. It is about integrity, and I think people that have integrity and can whether the temper tantrums that other people throw end up having alot more influence that those whose positions are so weak they have to force other people to comply to them.

If we think in terms of the quality of life different modes of living bestow, a pacifistic person is probobly going to have a more content existence than an ego dominated bully. In the same way that pacifism is less recources in the physical world it also requires less psychological energy. If you ever watch the faces of the most powerful people, as power hungry as they are they are never happy and if they ever smile it is totally contrived. It is just not a healthy way to live, whether or not it helps you 'win' in the worldly sense. What does it matter if you lose your soul?


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7978927 - 02/04/08 05:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
i've been punched in the face. it happened to me in front of a class my freshman year in high school. i just stood my ground and looked at the guy as he egged me on to fight back. i walked away and sat down.




What if he kept hitting you? Would you let him injure or kill you?


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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7978965 - 02/04/08 06:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

1. he made me bleed.
2. the class was full of people so i doubt it would have gotten out of hand if he had kept fighting me.
3. it just shows that when you meet violence with peace that violence just doesn't know what to do. violence doesn't always beat peace.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7979424 - 02/04/08 07:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

violence doesn't always beat peace.




Nope, but it does sometimes and that's enough for me.


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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7979491 - 02/04/08 07:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

so we should always choose violence then?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7979778 - 02/04/08 08:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You have to be smarter th an that. It is not absolutely one or the other. I don't use force against others unless it is to protect myself, my belongings, or the people I care about.


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Offlinewyldeman007
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7980156 - 02/04/08 09:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

If you think that Pacifism is weak, then you are a very amoral person. If the U.S. doesn't stop constricting the people of this planet, then we are sure to have a nuclear war or get nuked. Basically you, me, your brothers and sisters will likely die for no good reason. You can't force change on the world and expect everything to be OK. You can't claim that you are strong and expect others to follow. In order to survive ourselves we must grasp the philosophy that Carl Sagan showed us. We are doomed if we can't find peace, and you can't find peace through force only love. So take it or leave Madtowntripper, people around you are beginning to WAKE UP!


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: wyldeman007]
    #7980276 - 02/04/08 09:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, until another Hitler shows up somewhere.

Good luck turning the other cheek when someone wants to send your entire race to an extermination camp.

Have fun!


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7980715 - 02/04/08 10:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Yeah, until another Hitler shows up somewhere.

Good luck turning the other cheek when someone wants to send your entire race to an extermination camp.

Have fun!




Hitler's name gets thrown around WAY too much in any discussion about war. You don't have to let a maniac invade 50 countries before going to war with him. On the flipside, you don't have to invade every country with a muslim at the helm just because Al-Qaeda keeps sending the us government angry emails.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7980726 - 02/04/08 10:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not comparing anyone to Hitler, I only refer to your first scenario.

I myself was an opponent to the current war, and I would rather not see it used ever.

I'm just smart enough to realize that sometimes you *have* to use force to protect yourself, regardless of what your personal beliefs may be.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineSmackshadow
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7980796 - 02/04/08 11:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I am pretty sure the game theory model "A prizoners delema" describes the idea of pasifiam pretty well. Here is the Wiki link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

Basicly by not blowing each other up we both gain an advantage. If we both choose war we loose out, and if one chooses war and the other peace then the country looses out big time while the war prone country wins big.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: wyldeman007]
    #7981483 - 02/05/08 05:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

If you think that Pacifism is weak, then you are a very amoral person.




I think you meant immoral.

Quote:

If the U.S. doesn't stop constricting the people of this planet, then we are sure to have a nuclear war or get nuked. Basically you, me, your brothers and sisters will likely die for no good reason. You can't force change on the world and expect everything to be OK. You can't claim that you are strong and expect others to follow. In order to survive ourselves we must grasp the philosophy that Carl Sagan showed us. We are doomed if we can't find peace, and you can't find peace through force only love. So take it or leave Madtowntripper, people around you are beginning to WAKE UP!




That's all nice and good, but if I am being attacked, should I stand there and let them injure me?


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Offlinewyldeman007
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7981487 - 02/05/08 05:25 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Defense and world domination are different of course we should defend ourselves but not occupy other countries.


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: wyldeman007]
    #7981497 - 02/05/08 05:35 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

> If you think that Pacifism is weak, then you are a very amoral person.

Eh? If you think Pacifism is weak, then you are without moral values? Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense.

> if one chooses war and the other peace then the country [that chooses peace] looses out big time while the war prone country wins big.

This applies to pretty much everything, not just war. Look at any successful company, such as Microsoft, and you will see that they became successful by destroying competition rather than being nice. Look at any dictator and you will see that they came to power by destroying competition rather than being nice. Very few people are both nice and make it to the top. It is basic human nature for some people to take advantage of others for personal gain.

> We are doomed if we can't find peace, and you can't find peace through force only love.

Sorry, but hippy love sounds great on the surface, just like communism sounds great on the surface, but in reality, hippy love will never work, just as communism will never work (for the same reason). There will always be somebody that takes advantage of the system for personal gain at the expense of the the group. Again, human nature.

The only real solution is a good stalemate, such as what nuclear weapons provide. Unfortunately, there are some pretty nasty dangers involved with such a stalemate. One mistake can end the game for everybody.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineSmackshadow
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Seuss]
    #7981516 - 02/05/08 06:05 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

but in reality, hippy love will never work, just as communism will never work (for the same reason). There will always be somebody that takes advantage of the system for personal gain at the expense of the the group.




I actually agree with this. I also believe that it applies to capitalism, imperialism, feudalism, and virtually every other economic and government form we have though up. As long as people are willing to create personal benefits at the expense of others we will not have a system that works.

Quote:

This applies to pretty much everything, not just war. Look at any successful company, such as Microsoft, and you will see that they became successful by destroying competition rather than being nice. Look at any dictator and you will see that they came to power by destroying competition rather than being nice. Very few people are both nice and make it to the top. It is basic human nature for some people to take advantage of others for personal gain.




Ya but if you actually read the link mutual cooperation was proven to be the most rewarding in the long run. I think that this applies to war and peace very well. You could look at the entire free market as proof of this. We have the ability to freely contract, and negotiate for goods and services which has been effective at bringing new technology and products to market progressing our society. Even more efficient than any other form of economic theory that has been applied to date.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7982563 - 02/05/08 12:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Yeah, until another Hitler shows up somewhere.





Ah yes, the obligitory Hitler reference. Let us not forget what created Hitler in the first place, World War One. If the Germans had been more like the Swiss at the turn of the century WWII might never have happened. Moreover, if the armistice hadn't been so vengeful to Germany the hatred that brought the Third Reich would never have been planted.

It is only violence that perpetuates itself. It doesn't happen in a vacuum.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Seuss]
    #7982582 - 02/05/08 12:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
It is basic human nature for some people to take advantage of others for personal gain.




Hmm... blanket claims about human nature. I wonder if this is universally true why it does not address my own human nature...

It is particularly ironic that what many people claim to be "human nature" are self-destructive qualities that will likely prove unsustainable. Maybe the ones that survive will have to have a different nature than that of the sociopath.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #7982688 - 02/05/08 01:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Many things that can be said to be human nature are not in every case true.

It is human nature to want to reproduce, but some people have no sex drive.

It is human nature to want to eat to survive, but some people are anorexic.

And so on and so forth.

You get the idea. Just because you have successfully repressed a natural human desire does not invalidate that desire in the other 99.999% of the population.

Nobody is saying that everyone is aggressive or everyone is pacifistic. But the entire system of pacifism breaks down if just one person is willing to use force against the others.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7982711 - 02/05/08 01:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Repressed? Or could it be it is not innate in everyone, or even that it's existance is socially constructed?


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #7982734 - 02/05/08 01:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, repressed was probably a poor choice of words.

I am completely willing to accept that there are people like yourself who have no desire to take advantage of others in any way.

That is an admirable quality, and I wish there were more people like you.

But the other type certainly exists.

I don't believe the type about it being socially constructed one bit. Even children who have not been taught such activities will hurt and steal from other children.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7982780 - 02/05/08 01:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Nobody is saying that everyone is aggressive or everyone is pacifistic. But the entire system of pacifism breaks down if just one person is willing to use force against the others.




Without arguing for pacifism, I don't agree with this statement at all.

Violence enacted on a pacifist is not proof positive of the failure of pacifism. If the goal of pacifism is protest, or to open people's minds to new ideology, than violence is often an important step in pacifism. Gandhi's non-violent protesting techniques were essential in convincing Britain to give up its control of imperialist India.
Were a lot of self-described pacifists hurt or killed in the process? For damn sure. Just like a lot of soldiers are hurt or killed in war (the opposite of pacifism).

Violence isn't proof of pacifism's failure anymore than peace is proof of violence's failure.

And I also disagree with the notion that violence and exploitation are given facts within society or culture. One could easily argue (and many do) that the surprising overall tendency is for humans to help each other out, especially during times of war and violence.

Again, I am not arguing for a dogmatic commitment to pacifism. I just think your criticisms of it are off mark.


--------------------
:hst:
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but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7982802 - 02/05/08 01:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

That's entirely possible.

That I may be off the mark, I mean.

But I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not claiming that a single person cannot be a pacifist in the face of others who are violent people. Certainly, a person can choose to stand back and let someone else do whatever they want.

But this only works up to a certain point. You can be a pacifist while someone is trying to kill you, but that philosophy will only hold up as long as you are alive. Once you are dead, it is a moot point.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7982867 - 02/05/08 02:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
That's entirely possible.

That I may be off the mark, I mean.

But I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not claiming that a single person cannot be a pacifist in the face of others who are violent people. Certainly, a person can choose to stand back and let someone else do whatever they want.

But this only works up to a certain point. You can be a pacifist while someone is trying to kill you, but that philosophy will only hold up as long as you are alive. Once you are dead, it is a moot point.




Clearly this is true if your primary motivation is self-preservation. If your primary motivation is military victory, pacifism is also clearly a bad approach. If you are willing to sacrifice self in order to draw attention to the aggression of others, than pacifism can be as successful as terrorism in terms of bringing attention to your cause. Think of that dude in Tieneman square who stopped the tanks by standing in front of them and not moving. That's an example of someone utilizing pacifism to attract international attention. If only there were more spectacles of this ilk as oppossed to the 9/11 school of attention grabbing.

I'm also not sure which school will ultimately prove more succesfull. It would be an interesting point to discuss if anyone has any thoughts on it.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7982889 - 02/05/08 02:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Think of that dude in Tieneman square who stopped the tanks by standing in front of them and not moving. That's an example of someone utilizing pacifism to attract international attention.

I'm also not sure which school will ultimately prove more succesfull. It would be an interesting point to discuss if anyone has any thoughts on it.




I think what happened to the guy after that deservedly world-famous picture was taken deserves to be mentioned.

He was arrested on the spot and summarily executed.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7982910 - 02/05/08 02:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

And as I pointed out before is self-preservation is something you value over other things than pacifism is not for you. However neither is violence. Goebbels got his point across with war, and he was also arrested and executed.

If all you value is self-preservation than it is in your best interest to not fight for your ideology at all. Apathy I believe it is called.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7982914 - 02/05/08 02:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I disagree 100%.

Does it make any sense that if you don't care, nobody will hurt you? If you value self-preservation you had better be willing to protect yourself.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7982928 - 02/05/08 02:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Does it make any sense that if you don't care, nobody will hurt you? If you value self-preservation you had better be willing to protect yourself.





Remember though, there is a difference between self defense and preemptive aggression....


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SoY]
    #7982961 - 02/05/08 02:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Are the two mutually exclusive?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7983060 - 02/05/08 03:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I disagree 100%.

Does it make any sense that if you don't care, nobody will hurt you? If you value self-preservation you had better be willing to protect yourself.




Returning to the example of the student in Tianeman Square he had at least the following choices:
A) Act out of self preservation by removing himself from the protest at the arrival of armed tanks.
B) Continue to peacefully protest despite the very real threat of arrest and execution.
C) Arm himself with weapons and attack the tanks, the outcome of which would have been at least as certain as option B.

Apathy in this type of situation is rewarded in terms of self-preservation, although it is useless in terms of getting any sort of message across. Does apathy itself prevent against the threat of violence? No, of course not. But I'm talking about social resistance, not intra-personal violence. I'm talking about being in situations in which resisting violence with violence=death vs. resisting violence with peace=death.

Self-Defense is a different question. So far we have been talking in terms of scenarios in which you can choose to remove yourself from violence. In a certain life or death self-defense situation, in which protecting yourself with force means the difference between living and dying, and nothing is to be gained by death, and the violent opposition to your enemy will not result in your death, who in their right mind would choose not to defend themself? I suppose certain branches of extreme dogmatic pacifists, but I see a huge difference between political pacifism and personal pacifism.

Since we are in "political discussion" I assumed we were talking about political pacifism.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7983132 - 02/05/08 03:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think the two are comparable.

If a person is trying to kill you personally or a nation is trying take over your country to kill you, the only difference is scale.

Meeting deadly violence with violence *may*, as you stated, lead to a death. But meeting deadly violence with pacifism *will* lead to death. Preparing for such an act, whether buying a gun in a personal situation or maintaining a well-equipped standing army on the national level, can raise your chances of successfully meeting violence towards you with the same.

I don't see how a country can prepare itself to meet a serious foe by passive means. No amount of preparation will prevent the inevitable outcome of defeat and subjugation of a people not willing to protect themselves.

Again, you can use a situation like India under Ghandi as an example but realize that they only prevailed because the British were not willing to use serious force.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7983198 - 02/05/08 04:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Don't they realize that their little philosophy only works if *everyone* is pacifist? And that as soon as you have one person willing to use force to push their ideas on everyone else, that at that point you can either acquiesce and go quietly into that good night, or you can fight.

There are obviously groups out there, other than the United States Boogeyman, who are willing to use force to subjugate peace-loving people around the world.

So how can anyone just advocate that we sit back in our country and do nothing while people are slaughtered all over the globe.

What kind of real policy is this?


yes, a thinking pacifist does know this. this is the goal. goals are for the future.


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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: dshroom]
    #7983330 - 02/05/08 04:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You talk as if violence is the right decision always..... People who embrace tolerance and who don't impose views through force are the only moral people in my opinion. Read/watch Carl Sagan and you might be able to understand where I'm coming from. If you embrace faith/speculation as the only answer then there's no point arguing over what you believe in. This is my philosophy that we are all individuals but at the same time we are derived from one common ancestor so we are in-separable from nature. The world can have less suffering if everyone would start to see it in these terms and that's all I have to say.


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins


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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7983567 - 02/05/08 05:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It is true that people seem to have certain more less innate drives for security, happiness, self-preservation and reproduction. However, I don't think the method by which these things are attained is ingrained. People generally use violence (or manipulation) because it is the most primitive way and the most easily grasped at an early age.

It is certainly possible to find more constructive and mutually beneficial solutions to problems, but that requires a certain degree of awareness and insight that is often discouraged by thousands of years of social conditioning.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #7983575 - 02/05/08 05:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
It is true that people seem to have certain more less innate drives for security, happiness, self-preservation and reproduction. However, I don't think the method by which these things are attained is ingrained. People generally use violence (or manipulation) because it is the most primitive way and the most easily grasped at an early age.

It is certainly possible to find more constructive and mutually beneficial solutions to problems, but that requires a certain degree of awareness and insight that is often discouraged by thousands of years of social conditioning.




bingo


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7983797 - 02/05/08 06:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I initially disagreed with you because you said pacifism doesn't work if as much as one person is willing to use force.

Pacifism's success is not measured by its ability to erase violence. It is entirely dependant upon the situation.

I never meant to suggest that a sovereign nation shouldn't defend itself if a foreign country invades it. Clearly if one army invades another country with the intent to conquer it, pacifism will not prevent that from happening.

It all depends on the situation. I stand by my assertion that pacifism has, at times, acheived its goals. It was a cornerstone of the civil rights movement. As a method for national defense? Of course not.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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