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wyldeman007
Student



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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Redstorm]
#7980156 - 02/04/08 09:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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If you think that Pacifism is weak, then you are a very amoral person. If the U.S. doesn't stop constricting the people of this planet, then we are sure to have a nuclear war or get nuked. Basically you, me, your brothers and sisters will likely die for no good reason. You can't force change on the world and expect everything to be OK. You can't claim that you are strong and expect others to follow. In order to survive ourselves we must grasp the philosophy that Carl Sagan showed us. We are doomed if we can't find peace, and you can't find peace through force only love. So take it or leave Madtowntripper, people around you are beginning to WAKE UP!
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: wyldeman007]
#7980276 - 02/04/08 09:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yeah, until another Hitler shows up somewhere.
Good luck turning the other cheek when someone wants to send your entire race to an extermination camp.
Have fun!
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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gluke bastid
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7980715 - 02/04/08 10:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: Yeah, until another Hitler shows up somewhere.
Good luck turning the other cheek when someone wants to send your entire race to an extermination camp.
Have fun!
Hitler's name gets thrown around WAY too much in any discussion about war. You don't have to let a maniac invade 50 countries before going to war with him. On the flipside, you don't have to invade every country with a muslim at the helm just because Al-Qaeda keeps sending the us government angry emails.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: gluke bastid]
#7980726 - 02/04/08 10:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm not comparing anyone to Hitler, I only refer to your first scenario.
I myself was an opponent to the current war, and I would rather not see it used ever.
I'm just smart enough to realize that sometimes you *have* to use force to protect yourself, regardless of what your personal beliefs may be.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Smackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation


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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Redstorm]
#7980796 - 02/04/08 11:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I am pretty sure the game theory model "A prizoners delema" describes the idea of pasifiam pretty well. Here is the Wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma
Basicly by not blowing each other up we both gain an advantage. If we both choose war we loose out, and if one chooses war and the other peace then the country looses out big time while the war prone country wins big.
-------------------- The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all. ~H. L. Mencken~
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Redstorm
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: wyldeman007]
#7981483 - 02/05/08 05:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
If you think that Pacifism is weak, then you are a very amoral person.
I think you meant immoral.
Quote:
If the U.S. doesn't stop constricting the people of this planet, then we are sure to have a nuclear war or get nuked. Basically you, me, your brothers and sisters will likely die for no good reason. You can't force change on the world and expect everything to be OK. You can't claim that you are strong and expect others to follow. In order to survive ourselves we must grasp the philosophy that Carl Sagan showed us. We are doomed if we can't find peace, and you can't find peace through force only love. So take it or leave Madtowntripper, people around you are beginning to WAKE UP!
That's all nice and good, but if I am being attacked, should I stand there and let them injure me?
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wyldeman007
Student



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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Redstorm]
#7981487 - 02/05/08 05:25 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Defense and world domination are different of course we should defend ourselves but not occupy other countries.
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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Seuss
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: wyldeman007]
#7981497 - 02/05/08 05:35 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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> If you think that Pacifism is weak, then you are a very amoral person.
Eh? If you think Pacifism is weak, then you are without moral values? Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense.
> if one chooses war and the other peace then the country [that chooses peace] looses out big time while the war prone country wins big.
This applies to pretty much everything, not just war. Look at any successful company, such as Microsoft, and you will see that they became successful by destroying competition rather than being nice. Look at any dictator and you will see that they came to power by destroying competition rather than being nice. Very few people are both nice and make it to the top. It is basic human nature for some people to take advantage of others for personal gain.
> We are doomed if we can't find peace, and you can't find peace through force only love.
Sorry, but hippy love sounds great on the surface, just like communism sounds great on the surface, but in reality, hippy love will never work, just as communism will never work (for the same reason). There will always be somebody that takes advantage of the system for personal gain at the expense of the the group. Again, human nature.
The only real solution is a good stalemate, such as what nuclear weapons provide. Unfortunately, there are some pretty nasty dangers involved with such a stalemate. One mistake can end the game for everybody.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Smackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation


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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Seuss]
#7981516 - 02/05/08 06:05 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
but in reality, hippy love will never work, just as communism will never work (for the same reason). There will always be somebody that takes advantage of the system for personal gain at the expense of the the group.
I actually agree with this. I also believe that it applies to capitalism, imperialism, feudalism, and virtually every other economic and government form we have though up. As long as people are willing to create personal benefits at the expense of others we will not have a system that works.
Quote:
This applies to pretty much everything, not just war. Look at any successful company, such as Microsoft, and you will see that they became successful by destroying competition rather than being nice. Look at any dictator and you will see that they came to power by destroying competition rather than being nice. Very few people are both nice and make it to the top. It is basic human nature for some people to take advantage of others for personal gain.
Ya but if you actually read the link mutual cooperation was proven to be the most rewarding in the long run. I think that this applies to war and peace very well. You could look at the entire free market as proof of this. We have the ability to freely contract, and negotiate for goods and services which has been effective at bringing new technology and products to market progressing our society. Even more efficient than any other form of economic theory that has been applied to date.
-------------------- The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all. ~H. L. Mencken~
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Divided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7982563 - 02/05/08 12:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: Yeah, until another Hitler shows up somewhere.
Ah yes, the obligitory Hitler reference. Let us not forget what created Hitler in the first place, World War One. If the Germans had been more like the Swiss at the turn of the century WWII might never have happened. Moreover, if the armistice hadn't been so vengeful to Germany the hatred that brought the Third Reich would never have been planted.
It is only violence that perpetuates itself. It doesn't happen in a vacuum.
-------------------- 1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..." 2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..." 3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."
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Divided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Seuss]
#7982582 - 02/05/08 12:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: It is basic human nature for some people to take advantage of others for personal gain.
Hmm... blanket claims about human nature. I wonder if this is universally true why it does not address my own human nature...
It is particularly ironic that what many people claim to be "human nature" are self-destructive qualities that will likely prove unsustainable. Maybe the ones that survive will have to have a different nature than that of the sociopath.
-------------------- 1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..." 2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..." 3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Divided_Sky]
#7982688 - 02/05/08 01:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Many things that can be said to be human nature are not in every case true.
It is human nature to want to reproduce, but some people have no sex drive.
It is human nature to want to eat to survive, but some people are anorexic.
And so on and so forth.
You get the idea. Just because you have successfully repressed a natural human desire does not invalidate that desire in the other 99.999% of the population.
Nobody is saying that everyone is aggressive or everyone is pacifistic. But the entire system of pacifism breaks down if just one person is willing to use force against the others.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Divided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7982711 - 02/05/08 01:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Repressed? Or could it be it is not innate in everyone, or even that it's existance is socially constructed?
-------------------- 1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..." 2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..." 3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Divided_Sky]
#7982734 - 02/05/08 01:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yeah, repressed was probably a poor choice of words.
I am completely willing to accept that there are people like yourself who have no desire to take advantage of others in any way.
That is an admirable quality, and I wish there were more people like you.
But the other type certainly exists.
I don't believe the type about it being socially constructed one bit. Even children who have not been taught such activities will hurt and steal from other children.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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gluke bastid
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7982780 - 02/05/08 01:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: Nobody is saying that everyone is aggressive or everyone is pacifistic. But the entire system of pacifism breaks down if just one person is willing to use force against the others.
Without arguing for pacifism, I don't agree with this statement at all.
Violence enacted on a pacifist is not proof positive of the failure of pacifism. If the goal of pacifism is protest, or to open people's minds to new ideology, than violence is often an important step in pacifism. Gandhi's non-violent protesting techniques were essential in convincing Britain to give up its control of imperialist India. Were a lot of self-described pacifists hurt or killed in the process? For damn sure. Just like a lot of soldiers are hurt or killed in war (the opposite of pacifism).
Violence isn't proof of pacifism's failure anymore than peace is proof of violence's failure.
And I also disagree with the notion that violence and exploitation are given facts within society or culture. One could easily argue (and many do) that the surprising overall tendency is for humans to help each other out, especially during times of war and violence.
Again, I am not arguing for a dogmatic commitment to pacifism. I just think your criticisms of it are off mark.
--------------------
Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: gluke bastid]
#7982802 - 02/05/08 01:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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That's entirely possible.
That I may be off the mark, I mean.
But I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not claiming that a single person cannot be a pacifist in the face of others who are violent people. Certainly, a person can choose to stand back and let someone else do whatever they want.
But this only works up to a certain point. You can be a pacifist while someone is trying to kill you, but that philosophy will only hold up as long as you are alive. Once you are dead, it is a moot point.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum



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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7982867 - 02/05/08 02:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: That's entirely possible.
That I may be off the mark, I mean.
But I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not claiming that a single person cannot be a pacifist in the face of others who are violent people. Certainly, a person can choose to stand back and let someone else do whatever they want.
But this only works up to a certain point. You can be a pacifist while someone is trying to kill you, but that philosophy will only hold up as long as you are alive. Once you are dead, it is a moot point.
Clearly this is true if your primary motivation is self-preservation. If your primary motivation is military victory, pacifism is also clearly a bad approach. If you are willing to sacrifice self in order to draw attention to the aggression of others, than pacifism can be as successful as terrorism in terms of bringing attention to your cause. Think of that dude in Tieneman square who stopped the tanks by standing in front of them and not moving. That's an example of someone utilizing pacifism to attract international attention. If only there were more spectacles of this ilk as oppossed to the 9/11 school of attention grabbing.
I'm also not sure which school will ultimately prove more succesfull. It would be an interesting point to discuss if anyone has any thoughts on it.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: gluke bastid]
#7982889 - 02/05/08 02:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
gluke bastid said: Think of that dude in Tieneman square who stopped the tanks by standing in front of them and not moving. That's an example of someone utilizing pacifism to attract international attention.
I'm also not sure which school will ultimately prove more succesfull. It would be an interesting point to discuss if anyone has any thoughts on it.
I think what happened to the guy after that deservedly world-famous picture was taken deserves to be mentioned.
He was arrested on the spot and summarily executed.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum



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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7982910 - 02/05/08 02:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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And as I pointed out before is self-preservation is something you value over other things than pacifism is not for you. However neither is violence. Goebbels got his point across with war, and he was also arrested and executed.
If all you value is self-preservation than it is in your best interest to not fight for your ideology at all. Apathy I believe it is called.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: gluke bastid]
#7982914 - 02/05/08 02:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I disagree 100%.
Does it make any sense that if you don't care, nobody will hurt you? If you value self-preservation you had better be willing to protect yourself.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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