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Offlinewilshire
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7972832 - 02/03/08 12:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

the only time that pacifism is practical is when it is not a means to an end but an end in itself.


--------------------



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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7973379 - 02/03/08 02:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

What a ridiculous false dichotomy. Pacifism isn't practical? Well then clearly the only answer is total war with anyone who disagrees with you.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: YidakiMan]
    #7973396 - 02/03/08 02:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So the only options in your mind are pacifism or total war?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7973551 - 02/03/08 02:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It was OZ's proposal, that if pacifism isn't practical then the only other option must be total war. Then he "proved" that pacifism is practical by showing that MLK achieved his goals and so did Ghandi.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: YidakiMan]
    #7973911 - 02/03/08 04:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

its not a dichotomy i'm trying to set up. i was just showing how stupid it is to solve problems using violence. trying to solve any problem by using violence is just stupid. as soon as you accept that violence is a legitimate option to solve problems you have screwed yourself. its an attitude our society has which is why we have those 10 people getting killed in a store over the weekend. its why drug dealers kill eachother over "turf" and this type of mentality is then expressed as well through our foreign policy. preemptive war with iraq, military bases all over the world, and the biggest military budget in the world. as long as violence is an option it will continue to happen. we have to change our way of thinking before violence and war become a memory instead of a reality. you all don't want that to happen. keep war and violence as legitimate options. your way of thinking shapes the world. you may not think so but it does.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7974103 - 02/03/08 04:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Don't they realize that their little philosophy only works if *everyone* is pacifist? And that as soon as you have one person willing to use force to push their ideas on everyone else, that at that point you can either acquiesce and go quietly into that good night, or you can fight.

There are obviously groups out there, other than the United States Boogeyman, who are willing to use force to subjugate peace-loving people around the world.

So how can anyone just advocate that we sit back in our country and do nothing while people are slaughtered all over the globe.

What kind of real policy is this?




I not only don't understand pacifists, I don't understand people who want nothing but war and believe that force is the only way to deal with conflict.

There might have been a time in this country when we minded our own business and weren't about controlling everything outside our borders. And if somebody fucked with us they got a fistfull.

Unfortunately the days of that type of patriotism and honor and humanity seem to be history.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7974108 - 02/03/08 04:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
we have to change our way of thinking before violence and war become a memory instead of a reality. you all don't want that to happen.




Don't put words in my mouth, you're still using a false dichotomy. Just because I'm not a pacifist doesn't mean I don't believe in diplomacy.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: YidakiMan]
    #7974195 - 02/03/08 05:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

what false dichotomy? as long as violence is an option it will continue to happen. taking anything other than a pacifist standpoint is basically saying that violence is an option. just because you believe in diplomacy doesn't mean you are always opposed to violence. if you were always opposed to violence you would be a pacifist.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7976574 - 02/04/08 05:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Violence is an option.

If someone strikes you in the face and you going to stand down?


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7976641 - 02/04/08 06:26 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)


I have, it's unwise to try and strike at everything that hits you.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7976978 - 02/04/08 09:19 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
i don't understand conflict.

conflict is used primarily when people just can't get their way. since they can't get their way their own egocentric personality takes over because they think that only they matter and hurting other people is okay as long as they get what they want in the end. instead of using the brain they have and figuring out a way to resolve a problem in an intellectual way they revert to basic instincts.

the original poster is correct though. who would want someone to be a pacifist? i would much rather have the whole world be full of egocentric assholes who would rather fight and hurt people than talk out their problems. maybe the next time i get angry i'll just go kill someone. after all conflict is natural isn't it? the strong must dominate the weak. heck while we are at it lets kill minority groups that we don't like just because they are different. especially Buddhists because they are pacifists. the nazi's had it right. violence is the only real way to solve problems. if someone disagrees with you, just kill or hurt them until they agree with you. another example would be china fixing their currency against ours. this policy is obviously hurting the US economy but china won't cooperate with our requests. if i was president i would have nuked china over this disagreement a long time ago. after all talking this problem out is just stupid. illegal imigrants? just nuke mexico, problem solved. they can't immigrate illegaly if they don't exist anymore. maybe the world would be a better place if we all just solved our problems violently. peace obviously fails in every instance. i mean look at Gandhi in india. he totally failed to free india from british rule. now if ghandi had just tried to fight the british militarily india wouldn't be under british rule today. oh wait, he did use pacifist means to free india. what about MLK? blacks are still seperate but equal because he didn't use violence to get his message across. oh wait, MLK actually used peaceful demonstrations to get the laws changed. well i guess peace works.




lsol at madtowntripper. pacifism > madtowndumbass





this is rather silly


have you entertained the thought that in a conflict perhaps both people feel their in the right


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InvisibleArp
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7977425 - 02/04/08 11:46 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Violence is an option.

If someone strikes you in the face and you going to stand down?




depends on how big the other guy is :biggrin:


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Registered: 10/20/06
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7978347 - 02/04/08 04:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i've been punched in the face. it happened to me in front of a class my freshman year in high school. i just stood my ground and looked at the guy as he egged me on to fight back. i walked away and sat down.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7978362 - 02/04/08 04:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Good for you!

You're lucky thats as far as he was willing to take it.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7978774 - 02/04/08 05:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think in regards to pacifism there are two important points:

Using force to get things done usually only works in the short term, takes tons of recources, and then comes around to bite you in the ass. The Chinese wasted far more time and recources than the Tibetans because they have to maintain their rule with a costly iron fist, and constantly cover their tracks, while all the Dalai Lama has to do is tell the truth and practice peaceful protest. I think in the end, if it is a clash of wills the Tibetans will certainly outlast the Chinese because their policy isn't so unstable and high maintainence.

It is true that pacifism in a global sense requires a large degree of cooperation that may be difficult or impossible given how insane the world is. However, I believe that it matters in terms of a person's individual values. If you see violence as madness and stupidity, regardless of whether you will WIN it is way of life you don't want to live. It is about integrity, and I think people that have integrity and can whether the temper tantrums that other people throw end up having alot more influence that those whose positions are so weak they have to force other people to comply to them.

If we think in terms of the quality of life different modes of living bestow, a pacifistic person is probobly going to have a more content existence than an ego dominated bully. In the same way that pacifism is less recources in the physical world it also requires less psychological energy. If you ever watch the faces of the most powerful people, as power hungry as they are they are never happy and if they ever smile it is totally contrived. It is just not a healthy way to live, whether or not it helps you 'win' in the worldly sense. What does it matter if you lose your soul?


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7978927 - 02/04/08 05:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
i've been punched in the face. it happened to me in front of a class my freshman year in high school. i just stood my ground and looked at the guy as he egged me on to fight back. i walked away and sat down.




What if he kept hitting you? Would you let him injure or kill you?


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7978965 - 02/04/08 06:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

1. he made me bleed.
2. the class was full of people so i doubt it would have gotten out of hand if he had kept fighting me.
3. it just shows that when you meet violence with peace that violence just doesn't know what to do. violence doesn't always beat peace.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7979424 - 02/04/08 07:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

violence doesn't always beat peace.




Nope, but it does sometimes and that's enough for me.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7979491 - 02/04/08 07:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

so we should always choose violence then?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7979778 - 02/04/08 08:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You have to be smarter th an that. It is not absolutely one or the other. I don't use force against others unless it is to protect myself, my belongings, or the people I care about.


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