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OfflineMadtowntripper
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I Don't Understand Pacifists...
    #7970081 - 02/02/08 07:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Don't they realize that their little philosophy only works if *everyone* is pacifist? And that as soon as you have one person willing to use force to push their ideas on everyone else, that at that point you can either acquiesce and go quietly into that good night, or you can fight.

There are obviously groups out there, other than the United States Boogeyman, who are willing to use force to subjugate peace-loving people around the world.

So how can anyone just advocate that we sit back in our country and do nothing while people are slaughtered all over the globe.

What kind of real policy is this?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970144 - 02/02/08 07:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Read up on Ghandi. The British, especially civilians, but some soldiers didn't have the stomach to kill non-violent Indians.

Once the British left, the Muslims, who worked with Ghandi to remove the British, told Ghandi they did have the stomach to kill every last infidel that stood in the way of a Islamic state.


Edited by YidakiMan (02/02/08 07:36 PM)


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: YidakiMan]
    #7970159 - 02/02/08 07:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

What happened next door in Pakistan at the same time?

And why does India feel the need to have a huge conventional army and an array of nuclear arms?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970383 - 02/02/08 08:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

That was the birth of Pakistan. That is the answer to both your questions.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: YidakiMan]
    #7970404 - 02/02/08 08:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

There you go.

So pacifism didn't work, even in your idealistic scenario.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970450 - 02/02/08 08:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Most people only know of Ghandi and India what was in the movie and thus see the situation through rose-colored glasses.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970460 - 02/02/08 08:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yep. That is what I've been talking about in the other thread. People that think if the US turns into a bunch of hippies then the entire world will be peaceful is straight up bullshit. Those people do not know their history.


--------------------



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"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970461 - 02/02/08 08:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I agree. Certainly there are some cases where pacifism works better and there are some cases where violence works better.

Sticking to either one as an ideology instead of looking at each case separately is ignorant.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: DieCommie]
    #7970483 - 02/02/08 08:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think violence is an ideal solution, nor do I think it works in all cases. However, pacifism ONLY works if your opponent is unwilling to use force.

Otherwise, you suffer whatever fate they choose.

If your opponent is serious, pacifism is completely worthless.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970506 - 02/02/08 08:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yep. Depends on the situation. And in terms of the US and world affairs complete pacifism is a very bad idea.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970510 - 02/02/08 08:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Pacifism ONLY works if your opponent is unwilling to use force.

Otherwise, you suffer whatever fate they choose.

If your opponent is serious, pacifism is completely worthless.


I completely agree. If they are willing to shoot people in the streets, pacifism doesnt work. In the american civil rights movement, pacifism worked. Thats because the police were not willing to shoot people in the streets. They used dogs, water hoses, beating and intimidation but stopped short of shooting people down. The same thing happened in India I would guess.

Think of the revolutions of 1989. The armies were not willing to shoot civilians down, and county after country cast off communism EXCEPT not in china where the army was willing to and did shoot civilians in the street. Result: no peaceful revolution in china.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970564 - 02/02/08 08:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

A true pacifist is very rare. Jesus was one and yes, he let himself be crucified.

I think most pro peace types, though they would prefer to reason through problems with others, have no big issue with resorting to violent self defence if necessary to their surival.

Someone who truly would let someone physically beat them to a pulp without physically fighting back on principle is rare.

Can you be specific about exactly who and what you are reffering to madtown?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineHighHat
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #7971352 - 02/03/08 12:02 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Pacifism is just another one of those pretty concepts that looks good on paper and works to a degree, but due to our psychotic nature, fails to work with humans for every situation.

I don't think there is a single governmental/conflict model that is perfect, except some freakish blend of every 'pure' concept.

I'm too tired to do any research, but does it seem like 'Muslim' states don't want to get past 3rd world standards?

It also seems to me that every time a 'wealthy' country tries to reach out and help an underdeveloped nation, the wealthy country ends up massively screwing the underdeveloped country over by introducing technologies that the latter is not ready for.

Is it going too far to suggest that wealthy countries should spend their money developing a way to get off the planet and find a new home and let the underdeveloped nations fight it out and bring themselves up to par without wealthy countries interfering?

Ok, its far fetched (but not too far), but you get the concept right?


--------------------
Have you ever felt like you were wearing a hat, but you weren't?

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" -Letter from the Pennsylvania Assembly, November 11, 1755

This profile is strictly for role-playing. Any alleged association with illegal activities is purely fictional. Any images depicting illegal activities are photo-shopped or stolen.


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: HighHat]
    #7971540 - 02/03/08 01:09 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Pacifism is the opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes or gaining advantage. Pacifism covers a spectrum of views ranging from the belief that international disputes can and should be peacefully resolved; to calls for the abolition of the institutions of the military and war; to opposition to any organization of society through governmental force (anarchist or libertarian pacifism); to rejection of the use of physical violence to obtain political, economic or social goals; to the condemnation of force except in cases where it is absolutely necessary to advance the cause of peace (pacifism); to opposition to violence under any circumstance, including defense of self and others.

From Wikipedia.

Pacifism, like Anarchism is widely misunderstood and often subject to the Straw Man & Slippery Slope treatments.

A. Of course, you can overdo anything.


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: HighHat]
    #7972188 - 02/03/08 09:47 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

HighHat said:
I'm too tired to do any research, but does it seem like 'Muslim' states don't want to get past 3rd world standards?




It is a lot more complicated than that. States like Iran, former Iraq, the UAE, and Kuwait are very advanced nations, but the older generation and the moralists strive to keep things the way they are or return them to traditional islamic values. The same thing happens in our country, the elder generation wants things to stay the way they were and the born-agains want to return our country to traditional Christian values.

But the thing is, in the middle east, if you don't live in the city you are born into a tribe of nomadic herdsmen. There is farmland up to a mile or two away from the rivers, they are canaled and irrigated. But if you don't live in the city or near a river, the only thing for you is your herd of goats. There is no way to change that. Electricity? Computers? How about running water first.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7972505 - 02/03/08 11:31 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i don't understand conflict.

conflict is used primarily when people just can't get their way. since they can't get their way their own egocentric personality takes over because they think that only they matter and hurting other people is okay as long as they get what they want in the end. instead of using the brain they have and figuring out a way to resolve a problem in an intellectual way they revert to basic instincts.

the original poster is correct though. who would want someone to be a pacifist? i would much rather have the whole world be full of egocentric assholes who would rather fight and hurt people than talk out their problems. maybe the next time i get angry i'll just go kill someone. after all conflict is natural isn't it? the strong must dominate the weak. heck while we are at it lets kill minority groups that we don't like just because they are different. especially Buddhists because they are pacifists. the nazi's had it right. violence is the only real way to solve problems. if someone disagrees with you, just kill or hurt them until they agree with you. another example would be china fixing their currency against ours. this policy is obviously hurting the US economy but china won't cooperate with our requests. if i was president i would have nuked china over this disagreement a long time ago. after all talking this problem out is just stupid. illegal imigrants? just nuke mexico, problem solved. they can't immigrate illegaly if they don't exist anymore. maybe the world would be a better place if we all just solved our problems violently. peace obviously fails in every instance. i mean look at Gandhi in india. he totally failed to free india from british rule. now if ghandi had just tried to fight the british militarily india wouldn't be under british rule today. oh wait, he did use pacifist means to free india. what about MLK? blacks are still seperate but equal because he didn't use violence to get his message across. oh wait, MLK actually used peaceful demonstrations to get the laws changed. well i guess peace works.

lol at madtowntripper. pacifism > madtowndumbass


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7972566 - 02/03/08 11:46 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

If you read a bit further down than the first post, you'll see that we've already discussed Ghandi and how his pacifistic ideas only worked in that instance because the British would not use serious force.

What happened when they came up against an entity, Pakistan, that would?

Several huge wars, some of the biggest armies on the planet, and dozens of nuclear weapons pointed at each other across a border that is rife with tension and occasional bursts of deadly violence.

It Doesn't Work.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7972579 - 02/03/08 11:48 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

lol at madtowntripper. pacifism > madtowndumbass




There's no reason to behave like a child.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7972659 - 02/03/08 12:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

uh the violence between india and pakistan is not pacifism it is violence. if they were using peaceful means to resolve their problems there would be no need for their military. but they are using the path of violence, hence the military buildup between the two countries. gandhi and his peaceful means of freeing india did not start the conflict between pakistan and india. british colonialism did. you are doing a poor job of identifying the source of conflict in this instance.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: I Don't Understand Pacifists... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #7972737 - 02/03/08 12:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It's mainly because you misunderstand his argument. He never said pacifism is bad. He said it's not practical policy.


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