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Offlinekriminalelement
"jesus wept."
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Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 1,201
Loc: Ay! los popos estan aqui!
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
the white man's burden
    #7968785 - 02/02/08 01:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go make them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloke your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen feebles
Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers.


Do you agree with Kipling?

This is relevant to a lot of the arguments I've been hearing in this forum lately. They seem to be riddled with an undercurrent of Victorianism.


--------------------
While there is a lower class, I am in it
While there is a criminal element, I am of it
While there is a soul in prison, I am not free.

Eugene V Debs


Edited by kriminalelement (02/02/08 01:39 PM)


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OfflineHighHat
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Registered: 01/24/08
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Re: the white man's burden [Re: kriminalelement]
    #7971265 - 02/02/08 11:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No, I don't agree. I as a singular human am responsible for what I do and what I say. I take no responsibility for the sins of my fathers. I am human. I do what I think is right. I think that separating people by their appearance is wrong.

I think anyone who tries to tell me that I owe them something just because someone who looks like me did something to someone who looks like them some time in the past is a racist.

I don't believe in forgive and forget either. I believe in forgive, remember, and never repeat.


--------------------
Have you ever felt like you were wearing a hat, but you weren't?

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" -Letter from the Pennsylvania Assembly, November 11, 1755

This profile is strictly for role-playing. Any alleged association with illegal activities is purely fictional. Any images depicting illegal activities are photo-shopped or stolen.


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Offlineblackegg
...has left the building.
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Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 1,021
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Re: the white man's burden [Re: HighHat]
    #7971370 - 02/03/08 12:08 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

{With apologies to Rudyard Kipling}

Take up the White Man’s burden.

Send forth your sturdy kin,

And load them down with Bibles

And cannon-balls and gin.

Throw in a few diseases

To spread the tropic climes,

For there the healthy niggers

Are quite behind the times.

And don’t forget the factories.

On those benighted shores

They have no cheerful iron mills,

Nor eke department stores.

They never work twelve hours a day

And live in strange content,

Altho they never have to pay

A single sou of rent.

Take up the White Man’s burden,

And teach the Philippines

What interest and taxes are

And what a mortgage means.

Give them electrocution chairs,

And prisons, too, galore,

And if they seem inclined to kick,

Then spill their heathen gore.

They need our labor question, too,

And politics and fraud—

We’ve made a pretty mess at home,

Let’s make a mess abroad.

And let us ever humbly pray

The Lord of Hosts may deign

To stir our feeble memories

Lest we forget—the Maine.

Take up the White’s Man’s burden.

To you who thus succeed

In civilizing savage hordes,

They owe a debt, indeed;

Concessions, pensions, salaries,

And privilege and right—

With outstretched hands you raised to bless

Grab everything in sight.

Take up the White Man’s burden

And if you write in verse,

Flatter your nation’s vices

And strive to make them worse.

Then learn that if with pious words

You ornament each phrase,

In a world of canting hypocrites

This kind of business pays.

Source: Ernest Crosby, “The Real White Man’s Burden,” Swords and Ploughshares (New York: Funk and Wagnalls Company, 1902), 32–35.


VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

At the same time, I'm thankful to live in a country with technological innovations and financial stability.

My wife was born and raised in Monterrey Mexico...in a History class her teacher was saying how the Americans stole all the land up to the border...then he paused and said "...it's a shame they didn't steal us too!" to general agreement.

Is this solely because of the White Man that Mexico is so financially polarized, politically corrupt and scary?


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: the white man's burden [Re: blackegg]
    #7971915 - 02/03/08 07:14 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

blackegg said:
Is this solely because of the White Man that Mexico is so financially polarized, politically corrupt and scary?




no, it's because mexico forgot that independence comes from the barrel of a gun


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Offlineblackegg
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Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 1,021
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Re: the white man's burden [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #7974828 - 02/03/08 07:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

are you quoting Bon Jovi?


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
Re: the white man's burden [Re: blackegg]
    #7975475 - 02/03/08 09:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The White Man's Burden, as I understand it, was a justification of imperialism and Eurocentrism during the Victorian era. It's pretty racist and offensive if you were to try to apply it to the modern world. At the time however there was no stigma attached to saying that other races were living in ignorance and servitude and it is "The White Man's Burden" to liberate them. Seems to me to be a pretty lame and arrogant way of justifying colonialism.  :whatever:


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Edited by Virus_with_Shoes (02/04/08 12:26 AM)


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: the white man's burden [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #7976136 - 02/04/08 12:13 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You'd be amazed how many white men still think they are special or at the top of some caste system.

Time for equality.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Posts: 3,707
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Re: the white man's burden [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7976212 - 02/04/08 12:38 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Racism is so stupid. Why would white people hate black people? At one point in history we were ALL black... fuck, Adam and Eve must have been black too (see the Out of Africa hypothesis of human origins). It also astonishes me that some Christians can hate Jews... that dude on the cross you pray to... a Jew!

With that out of my system, yeah racism and ignorance is infuriating but the interesting thing about that Rudyard Kipling poem is that if you replace the concept of whiteness in the poem with democracy, you'd get a pretty accurate picture of where the ideology for our current foreign policy comes from. That is, those who make our foreign policy see it as their own "White Man's Burden" to spread democracy and Western institutions to the "heathen" nations of the world. Both "The White Man's Burden" and "The Burden of Democracy" come from a perceived position of superiority and that we know what's best for others... just a thought.


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InvisibleLuddite
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
Re: the white man's burden [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #7983584 - 02/05/08 05:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I Don’t Want to be Black Anymore
By J.J. Johnson
Published 12. 17. 02 at 22:47 Sierra Time
xxx
I Don’t Want to be Black Anymore
J.J. Johnson - Written: 02.28.00

It's not working, folks.

I have tried to do everything I can to be the African-American I’m supposed to be, but I just cannot continue. I am hereby resigning myself from the Black Race. And before I get death threats from my Black brethren out there, hear me out.

I have almost made it through another Black history month, in which I’m supposed to do all I can to insult White people for 28 days. I guess I should even say the Black History month is a racial conspiracy by White people since they only gave us 28 (or 29) days to rip their dignity to shreds, while the other months have 30 or 31 days. I guess it’s just another example of the Black man not getting his fair share.

Frankly, many of my Black brothas and sistas’ are starting to… well... embarrass me. Can I turn on the television and not hear some Black liberal puke complaining about something?

I’ll start there – television. First we had the NAACP (Notorious African American Communist Pigs) lambasting Hollywood for not having enough Blacks in front of (or behind) the cameras. “We don’t see enough Black folk on TV.” An economic boycott is threatened, the ugly “R” word is used, and Hollywood (you know, those rich White guys) capitulate. Did anyone ask were the accusations true? And if so, who really cares?

Whenever I turn my television to watch my favorite programs, I see plenty of very wealthy and successful Black men excelling in their trade/craft. But I guess the NFL, the NBA, and Major League baseball doesn’t count. It must be just me. I guess the "quota kings and queens" don’t count those folks. Then another “study” comes out. This one says, “While Blacks are over-represented on television, they are still given only minor roles, or are on screen for less than 5 seconds at a time.” And, of course, this too is unfair. The easy defense against this eternal whining was for anyone to just mention three letters: B.E.T

That’s right, Black Entertainment Television, where you can get all the Blackness you want, 24/7 with all those Black folks in front of (and behind) all those cameras. Gee, only about 60 million cable viewers can see that.

I guess it’s just me. Maybe Momma didn’t raise me right. Now we have that flag issue in Dixie. Most folks thought if they just took down that flag, all this controversy would just go away. After all, it’s a horrible reminder of slavery.

Strange, I can’t find a Black person in this country who can remember being a slave. I also can’t find one White person in the country who will admit to owning slaves. In fact, most of the Whites in this country (according to my investigation) had ancestors who landed on these shores long after slavery ended in North America. And I can’t repeat what some of those Irish folks told me. But, for one month I’m supposed to hate the Confederate flag. Not just waving over the South Carolina Statehouse, but on police cars in Mississippi and in front of livestock shows in Houston. I’m supposed to call for the changing of the names of bridges in Virginia, parks in Tennessee and the defacing of portraits of General Lee. I’m even supposed to support Rep. King’s (R-NY) demonizing of every Southerner in the halls on Congress. I’m supposed to support and endorse all of this because I’m a Black man.

Yes, boycott South Carolina. Boycott the entire South until they get their “minds right.” This means, no Blacks (like me) should do any business with the South period. So, to that Black businessman in Memphis, sorry. Hope you can get some of those racist White folks to patronize your store. The NAACP says I can’t go there.

About the family reunion this year in South Carolina – forget it. Nope, not me. Our un-elected Black leadership says we gotta boycott. Don’t worry, I’ll explain to that Black soul food caterer in Columbia that the reason he’s losing so much business this year is because of a piece of cloth hanging over the capitol building. He’ll understand.

And Florida… we’ll have to leave you out, too. You see, Governor Jeb Bush enacted a program called “One Florida” in which anyone who finishes in the top 20% of his or her class gets a scholarship to a public University in Florida. I can’t figure it out for the life of me, but according to my Black leaders, that’s racist, too. The NAACP head (case) says we’ll boycott Florida until that’s changed. By the way, isn’t it interesting that the same people who say we should boycott everything economically are the same people who say Blacks are economically deprived in this “White dominated” society? What they’re telling me is that Black people are too stupid to make it into the top 20% of the graduating class, and that most Black people are too stupid to see through their lies. And most of these self-appointed Black leaders probably NEVER made it into the top 20% of anything. But nevertheless, they’re my leaders. Dan Rather, Tom Brokaw, Peter Jennings, Bill Bradley and Al Gore say they are, and since all these self-appointed “oracles” are White, they must be right.

Even Secret Service is getting into the act. Some of these guys, even though they get to guard the President and the Vice President, say they haven’t got the promotions they deserve. Where’s the dignity? I guess those White Secret Service agents get to guard folks more important.

Here’s a suggestion for the Black Secret Service agents who guard those important White folks (from the south): Wanna become heroes and restore your dignity? Quit. That’ll teach ‘em.

As a Black man, I’m told I should pin my hopes on making it rich when the NAACP gets their “fair share” from suing all those guns dealers. After all it’s those gun dealers’ fault for all those Black folks shooting all those Black folks. Perhaps next year, they’ll be suing bed-sheet makers, rope manufactures, and the South American drug cartels.

I have asked my Black leaders to sue the ATF, since the only product in America that “requires” you to list your race before purchasing it is a firearm. They haven’t returned my call. But then again, the right to keep and bear arms isn’t listed under “civil rights” anyway, is it?

It’s okay. We’ll just sue the gun-makers instead. That’ll teach them to not sell guns to us Black folks (so we can get gunned down for reaching for a wallet.) Yes, if we just sue a few more White folks, harass and slander the rest, one day – maybe one day--we won’t have to put a prefix in front of the word “American” anymore.

Well, I’m not waiting for that. I have done everything to try to advance the cause of personal freedom as a Black man, and to enjoy the liberty that my parents fought for, but it is just not working. These White people are just too smart for me. They made sure that I never had to wait at a Denny’s restaurant longer than anyone else does. Some of them hired me for simply having the brains to do the job. Some of them (the real sneaky ones) had the gall to judge me by the content of my character, and not the color of my skin. They’ve paid me in dollars with White slave-owners' photos on them. And, damn them, they made me earn it first.

They have allowed me to own my own business. They even went so far as to steal tax dollars from other White people to make sure I got an education – so I could like…make it in this world.

What an evil plot. Since there is almost no reason to bitch about anything anymore, it must be…institutional racism.

I am through being used. I am fed up with trying to conform. This year, when I fill out my Census form, I will let them know that I quit. I wish to no longer be a Black American. I want nothing to do with race baiting, whining, pandering for more tax dollars; family breakdowns, and the Al Sharptons of the world.

I don’t want to be Black anymore.

I am somebody, and I don’t need Jessie Jackson to tell me that. My father already did.

I don’t want to be Black anymore.

I refuse to be used as a statistic to get more left-wing socialists into Congress.

I don’t want to be Black anymore.

There is no need to make me part of a “protected group” as the California Governor recently stated. I can protect myself, thank you.

I don’t want to be Black anymore.

Please do not feel sorry for me anymore, White folks. That liberal pity-party really insults me, anyway.

I don’t want to be Black anymore.

You Democrats don’t have to act like you like me. I know it’s an election year. I am tired of being the Black “sheep” of the party. Leave me alone.

I don’t want to be Black anymore.

If it means disgracing my own heritage by insulting Southern history…

I don’t want to be Black anymore.

Since making the same statements Martin Luther King, Jr. made in 1963 are now considered “racist” and “insensitive…”

I don’t want to be Black anymore.

If it means more innocent White people are forced to go through “sensitivity training…”

I don’t want to be Black anymore.

If it means that everyone loses their freedom of speech, freedom to peaceably assemble, and their right to keep and bear arms…

I don’t want to be Black anymore.

If it means being a ward of the State, rather than a Child of God…

I don’t want to be Black anymore.

I’ll sign the papers, dammit. I’ll file the lawsuit. I’ll start the boycott this time. I have every right. I am sick of these media-selected Black prostitutes making a mockery out of my country, out of everything America stands for. I’m sick of them giving everyone else a reason to hate me.

I quit.

I no longer want a prefix in from of my label. From this point forward, I, J.J. Johnson, DEMAND that I be simply called…

…American.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070210072257/http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/jj/edjj022800.htm


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: the white man's burden [Re: Luddite]
    #7984970 - 02/05/08 10:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Racism stems from the refusal to learn/advance one's self.


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: the white man's burden [Re: learningtofly]
    #7985000 - 02/05/08 10:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

To the OP: Who WOULD agree with Kipling? What sort of thinking would be involved if any?


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: the white man's burden [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #7985067 - 02/05/08 10:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)



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InvisibleLuddite
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
Re: the white man's burden [Re: learningtofly]
    #7988174 - 02/06/08 06:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)



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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: the white man's burden [Re: Luddite]
    #7992192 - 02/07/08 03:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

If it wasn't for slavery, they wouldn't be here.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5854904


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: the white man's burden [Re: Luddite]
    #7992335 - 02/07/08 03:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I can't take a guy seriously who quotes as gospel the Barnes Review: a publication known for its historical revisionism and Holocaust denial. Can you at least say something of substance rather than quoting long-winded quotes from previous threads.


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: the white man's burden [Re: Luddite]
    #7994354 - 02/07/08 11:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Luddite said:
If it wasn't for slavery, they wouldn't be here.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5854904




duh. slaves were the backbone of the american economy.


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OfflineHighHat
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Re: the white man's burden [Re: learningtofly]
    #7994470 - 02/07/08 11:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Time for equality.




Exactly. What this means is you get nothing special. You don't get a whole month devoted to people who look like you. You don't get 'aid' based on your appearance. You don't get to win an argument by threatening that the outcome you didn't want was a result of 'racism'.

I am going to go out on a limb and say something that may come across as racist. I apologize for your future misunderstanding.

If you are of a darker complexion, you are equal now. You have all the rights as any legal American living in America. You have your well deserved equality. Stop pushing for superiority. I direct this comment towards official groups who are left in a situation where they find themselves without meaning or need.

Yes, its a sad truth that there are some people of a lighter complexion who refuse to let something old and grotesque die. If they are still that way, there is nothing in the world that you can do to change that. You can sue them, call them names, put their face on TV, but anyone so backwards in this day, age, and region who still subscribes to racism WILL NOT CHANGE. Its best to let them smoke away on their death sticks and let their ideas die with them.

We are all waiting on the extinction of racism as an idea. Believe me.

Now is where I walk away from this idea and this argument to let it die all by itself in darkness. Just as it deserves.


--------------------
Have you ever felt like you were wearing a hat, but you weren't?

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" -Letter from the Pennsylvania Assembly, November 11, 1755

This profile is strictly for role-playing. Any alleged association with illegal activities is purely fictional. Any images depicting illegal activities are photo-shopped or stolen.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: the white man's burden [Re: HighHat]
    #7995614 - 02/08/08 10:06 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

HighHat said:
If you are of a darker complexion, you are equal now. 




If you lived in Baltimore, Detroit, Atlanta, Newark, or New Orleans, you would not be able to make that statement. :shrug:

I understand that maybe in some places black people have equal opportunity. In terms of mass media, that have at least as much visibility as white people, and oftentimes more.

However in our rotting inner cities it is a different game. While Al Sharpton and that "nappy headed-hos" dude duke out over some sound bytes over TV while suburban america watches, there are 10s of thousands of African Americans stuck in cities that the rest of the country has abandoned. Come to my city and I will show you some shit that will have you singing a different tune.

I am not calling for affirmative action or hate crime legislation or any laws that treat anyone differently according to race. But I am calling for people to stop ignoring the inner city african americans who are still struggling with the worst conditions in America. They don't deserve to be shrugged off. They are Americans.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Offlinekriminalelement
"jesus wept."
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Re: the white man's burden [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7996684 - 02/08/08 03:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

To the OP: Who WOULD agree with Kipling? What sort of thinking would be involved if any?




I was in agreement with what you said earlier, about substituting democracy for a few of the terms. It seems like a lot of people in this forum and the country at large subscribe to Victorian colonial ideals, but have simply replaced some choice words in the rhetoric.

I guess my point is that while racism has become unacceptable, ethnocentrism and colonialism is alive and strong. Instead of saying that we need to help people because of some sort of "racial handicap", people patronize the societies of others, saying they are "backwards and stuck in the middle ages". We need to help them with occupation so they don't hurt themselves with too much sovereignty. It's the same old argument and it's just as odious as it was in the 19th century, and a lot of people agree with it. I really don't understand why people can be so against racism, which is discrimination based on skin color, and not even notice ethnocentrism in policy decisions or personal debates. Ethnocentrism is based on the belief that a culture is inherently wrong, inferior, or evil; it's a discrimination based on personal identity instead of just a physical attribute, and it's always seemed much more offensive to me.


--------------------
While there is a lower class, I am in it
While there is a criminal element, I am of it
While there is a soul in prison, I am not free.

Eugene V Debs


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Registered: 01/25/07
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Re: the white man's burden [Re: kriminalelement]
    #7996879 - 02/08/08 04:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Beautifully put, kriminal.

I get the feeling that this "White Man's Burden" idea comes from a need to rationalise selfish, imperialistic policies and make them seem palatable and acceptable. For instance, from the 1880's perspective, we get a poem like the "White Man's Burden" that tries to portray colonialism as some sort of altruistic, self-sacrificing endeavor to help the suffering heathen peoples while it was, in actuality, a mercantilistic land, resources and market grab with a dash of genocide thrown in for good measure.

Quote:

Ethnocentrism is based on the belief that a culture is inherently wrong, inferior, or evil; it's a discrimination based on personal identity instead of just a physical attribute, and it's always seemed much more offensive to me.




Nowadays we have the gall to think that we can just export our Western democratic institutions as if it were some kind of commodity that would be readily consumed by those who already have their own systems set up... in short, those we deem as "backwards" (of course, if it is not readily consumed, the US army or CIA is there to ram it down their throats). I think the difference nowadays is everything is more sugarcoated and the language is more politically correct but if you look, those ethnocentric undertones still persist, in my opinion.


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