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OfflineShivaMeme
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Selective "breeding", combating degradation etc...
    #7968704 - 02/02/08 01:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'm very well versed in most aspects of science but in mycology I'm a noob. However, in my experience programming and elsewhere I find that ignorance can be an asset. An intelligent but ignorant viewer of a problem can, many times, provide a novel solution that evades those closer to it. With that it mind I wanted to ask some questions and please forgive me as my ignorance will show.


My first question is if anyone who is dealing with preserving and improving our favorite fungi has thought about the fact that degradation is almost certainly due to the "prima donna" atmosphere in which we grow mushrooms. We prevent natural selection by making it too easy.

There are numerous examples of this even when considering a single specimen of an organism and its life experience. For instance, rats in the lab are not nearly as healthy as ones in sewers.

http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/060616_clean_rats.html

Additionally, it's been found that major allergies such as peanut allergy are because of lack of exposure and people have been successfully treated with ever increasing doses to alleviate those allergies. I'm not going to link to every study I get my info from, but be assured I'm not pulling anything out of my ass.

Given this "bubble-boy" theory of degradation, it seems that the major strains need to have some selective breeding to re-invigorate the species. One of the ways that seems easiest is to simply start collecting spores from outdoor patches. Nature provides a suitably competitive and difficult environment so that only the strong survive. Unfortunately, collecting from outside conditions probably greatly increases the likelihood of contamination.

The other idea I had for you lab monkeys is to provide some artificial barriers for our favorite strains to overcome such as anti-fungals. This is basically the same premise as what is being done accidentally in hospitals by using anti-bacterial soap. Garlic and Oregano oil are two edible anti-fungals that would provide a hostile environment. I don't know but I would guess that spores provide for some minute genetic diversity and therefore over-seeding an artificially difficult antifungal-agar would provide the greatest likelihood of producing mycelium in the difficult environment. Once a resistant strain is produced, the anti-fungal can be used in all subsequent substrates to reduce contamination. The strain may actually become dependent on it.

Some other powerful natural/edible anti-fungal and antibacterial substances, I've found, in addition to Oregano and Garlic include Thyme oil, sweet orange oil, and neem oil. I plan on doing some testing with these for integration into substrates for eliminating contamination because one or more of them may be toxic to bacteria but not fungi. I'll post an update if I find a winner.



Trait breeding:
While I know that Psilocybin content would be great to select for, I'm sure none of us have the high tech lab equipment necessary to determine level of success. Hardiness, speed, production etc can be fairly easily judged. The trait that interests me is speed of colonization. It seems that this would be an indicator of mycelium strength and hardiness and therefore contamination resistance, though not necessarily. I would appreciate feedback on that part of it. Either way, speed of colonization is a good trait to select for.

My question is if anyone has tried some of the following techniques of improving colonization within a strain. My first thought is to place multiple spores in the same place in the middle of dish and then only collect mycelium from the area which first touches the edge. Fruit in substrate, collect spores, rinse, repeat... My second thought is more about cloning but may also be a strength selection process that occurs in the wild. Start with a single inoculated dish like above and select the fastest running mycelium, but instead of moving to substrate, simply move a very small sample to the center of a new dish and continue this process for as long as possible while occasionally fruiting winners.

In the wild, many mycelium grow in running formations that are far from the familiar circular fairy rings. In any species that does not cause rings, it is likely that part of the natural selection that strain relies on is the colonization speed. Some fungi can be the largest organisms on earth (underground) and I believe typical cloning techniques do not reflect this ability of fungus. IMO natural selection happens within multi-cellular organisms. Poorly formed cells within our own body are killed off by our immune system.

Ease breeds growth and diversity, hardship breeds efficiency and strength. Cycling between them is the way of nature.


Additionally I wanted to reveal another cheap substrate material I'm in the process of testing: Wheat Germ. It's very well known for it's nutritional content and is used as a specialty horse feed. I assumed the souped-up nutritional content plus the fact that it is designed by nature as fuel for baby plants would provide the perfect substrate. (Germ is the little packet of nutrient provided for the baby plant inside each seed) You can find it at any local co-op for about $25 for a 50 pound bag. In my test, I simply used it as a brown-rice substitute in PF cakes. At the same time with the same needle I also prepared brown-rice PF cakes. I then watched the mycelium growth in all the containers. (three and three) I found that the Wheat germ colonized just as fast and sometimes faster. Unfortunately I was busy with other things and accidentally let the heat go bad in the grow room and ruined all the jars, never making it to fruit. I'm unsure if more carbohydrate material might need to be mixed in to get the best fruiting but it seems like it should have enough by itself.

Regardless, this new substrate material is far cheaper than some others and will certainly work. Additionally, because it is little pieces instead of powder, even if no vermiculite is used for spacing, the material itself leaves some room for air. This would make it an ideal for the growth of sclerotia. I've seen it mentioned on this board as a possibility for a fertilizer because of nutrients and tryptophan content but it seems nobody followed through with testing. I tested it. It works for mycelium and I will test it for fruiting though I'm sure it is equivalent to brown rice flour. Perhaps nobody realized it was available cheaply in bulk at livestock feed stores. It's far too expensive in the little cannisters at grocery stores...

That's all for now. :wink:


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The curse of Genius is the constant scrutiny of lesser minds...
The curse of Stupidity is the constant delusion of Genius...
The curse of Insanity is the constant perception of scrutiny...

Keirsey Temperament: ENTP (Take it Here)


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OfflineShivaMeme
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Re: Selective "breeding", combating degradation etc... [Re: ShivaMeme]
    #7985108 - 02/05/08 11:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Either the post was too big or new users are automatically a pariah until proven otherwise. Let me saw down the post so hopefully I'll get some answers to questions.


1)Has anyone tried to improve species of fungi by purposely providing a difficult environment and selecting for survivors?

2)Has anyone noticed a correlation between speed of colonization of a strain and its resistance to contamination?

3)Has anyone tried repeatedly transferring the fastest colonized area in a dish to subsequent dishes in many repeated steps to try to isolate a fast colonizer. Have they then fruited and repeated the process and seen a repeated increase in colonization speed or is this already maxed and only crossbreeding can show gains?


And finally the side notes:
a) Wheat germ can be purchased very cheaply from feed stores and makes a very nutritious substrate
b) Thyme extract and Sweet Orange Oil are food grade anti-bacterial agents with many possible uses including perhaps integration into substrates. Effect on mycelium untested.
c) Garlic and Oregano are food grade anti-fungals.
d) Neem is a powerful food grade anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, insecticidal and reportedly anti-viral agent.


--------------------
The curse of Genius is the constant scrutiny of lesser minds...
The curse of Stupidity is the constant delusion of Genius...
The curse of Insanity is the constant perception of scrutiny...

Keirsey Temperament: ENTP (Take it Here)


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Offlinemr_minds_eye
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Re: Selective "breeding", combating degradation etc... [Re: ShivaMeme]
    #7985346 - 02/06/08 12:37 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

That was a great post. I have had similar thoughts. I try to select mycelia that eats contams. Making your agar plates too nutrient rich makes the mycelia too lazy so I am told. Which plays into your theory. You've got to make them work for it. I've been growing at 7,000 ft elevation and it really seems like the networks are much denser than at lower elevations. I have seen some level of adaptation there. We are talking about a highly mutagenic organism and in nature it has negative stimuli to keep it strong. Like in the tradition of Abraham, where it states that God's letting you struggle to make you stronger. Nature means struggle if you can't deal with it you become extinct. With such a mutagenic creature it shows this very quickly. So in the lab I think that we need to simulate this. It just seems like if there is a way to slow down the degradation it would have something to do with that. I know when I grew Salvia my plants were kind of healthy but when I had them inside. When I took them outside and they got to be in the wind and breezes the stems got that negative stimuli which made the plants so much stronger and robust. I'm sure that if you had successive generations of this, and maybe some other things, I mean this is a more complex organism and I'm not trying to oversimplify it but I'm sure if it lived in a bubble so to speak. After long enough, it would degenerate. This seems like it would be the same principle but with a much more rapid manifestation. When it comes down to it I really don't know all that much either. These are just my thoughts.


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Our quest for discovery fuels our creativity in all fields, not just science. If we reached the end of the line, the human spirit would shrivel and die. But I don't think we will ever stand still: we shall increase in complexity, if not in depth, and shall always be the center on an expanding horizon of possibilities.
-Stephen Hawking


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Offlinemr_minds_eye
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Re: Selective "breeding", combating degradation etc... [Re: mr_minds_eye]
    #7985355 - 02/06/08 12:41 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Oh yeah with the wheat germ, if you mixed it in the proper ratio, you could use it if they like it. Changing their diet seems to provide stimulus.


--------------------
Our quest for discovery fuels our creativity in all fields, not just science. If we reached the end of the line, the human spirit would shrivel and die. But I don't think we will ever stand still: we shall increase in complexity, if not in depth, and shall always be the center on an expanding horizon of possibilities.
-Stephen Hawking


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OfflineShivaMeme
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Re: Selective "breeding", combating degradation etc... [Re: mr_minds_eye]
    #7985447 - 02/06/08 01:41 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Why not use wheat germ as a substrate? Is there a problem with it? I was thinking of making philosopher stones with it.


--------------------
The curse of Genius is the constant scrutiny of lesser minds...
The curse of Stupidity is the constant delusion of Genius...
The curse of Insanity is the constant perception of scrutiny...

Keirsey Temperament: ENTP (Take it Here)


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InvisibleMorelman
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Re: Selective "breeding", combating degradation etc... *DELETED* [Re: ShivaMeme]
    #7988357 - 02/06/08 07:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by Morelman

Reason for deletion: Never again...



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Offlinepoof
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Re: Selective "breeding", combating degradation etc... [Re: Morelman]
    #8000127 - 02/09/08 01:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

morelman, be sure to do a writeup on your resistant substrain. I like OP's idea of controlled natural selection, this would probably produce a much stronger substrain than the traditional rhyzomorphic selection.


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Re: Selective "breeding", combating degradation etc... *DELETED* [Re: poof]
    #8003024 - 02/09/08 10:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by Morelman

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OfflineMagicius
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Re: Selective "breeding", combating degradation etc... [Re: Morelman]
    #8006579 - 02/10/08 09:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I once grew massive shrooms with a mix of dry old brown pine needles and donkeypoo, pasteurized. anyways, that doesnt matter
what matters is mushroom cultivators dont like pine trees or pine needles coz its all full of resin and the scent and shit, molds dont like it.

so FRESH PINE NEEDLES could be used as a fungal inhibitor.

consider even spawning bits of mushroom spawn inside a 24 hour soaked pine needle substrate, along with bits of fresh pine needles equal to the amount of fresh spawn bits, approximately. without even pasteurizing the soaked fdry old needles, maybe it could work by preventing fungal growth, however in this way supporting the already existent mycelium, even though it too must battle the fresh pine needle control vector. just an idea...


dry old needles hardly have any of that smell left and i HAVE grown massive flushes on them, along with donkey poo. i had some giants on it too, 3 mushers weighed 210 grams, although ive heard of bigger it did go from elbow to hand (the big mushrooms)... on dry old pine needles.

just thinking about the addition of bits of FRESH needles, to inhibit molds and shit.

i should/ and will test it with a few variations... within the week, it should be done...

it would be amazing if it worked; then i would use all my old spent cakes that have finished say a fourth flush, crumb that into massive amounts of soaked old needles and just add the fresh needle antifungal protectant along with that, sort of as an antifungal spawn-support in the unpastuerized bulk, perhaps this is possible, i donno, or spawn those old cakes into just soaked whatever, adding tiny bits of fresh needles everywhere along with mycelium pieces everywhere. inhibiting fungal growth within the unpasteurized, moist growing medium that has however, along with the bits of fresh pine needles bits of old cakes for spawn. it could balance out and work.

i dont know wishful thinking but fresh pine needle pieces can DEFINITELY play a role in inhibiting contams, to what degree in what context, is yet to be proven/ disproven, not by opinion but by experiments =]

and btw, Shiva: i actually have a test tube that has dictyphora indusiata veiled lady mushroom mycelium it it, but i left it open since it was the slowest of the strains of that mushroom i have, the mycelium didnt want to really grow. any ways the test tube contaminated, and a couple days later (ago), i saw that the mycelium had started growing really well defined, fibrous rhizomorphs onto the contams, while the agar itself didn't seem to make it want to grow, at all... its still open and contaminated, although not growing much faster, still the rhizomorphs are ON the nasty assed contams, by the colour two different greenish turqoise molds, that seem to cause the mycelium to grow rhizomorphically, where the agar did not.
I intend on isolating those rhizomorphs, even if its off of contaminant molds, coz thats the only place that that strain is growing any rhizomorphs, or at all.


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