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Wolfgang

Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 8,370
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hydrogen powered cars
#7967250 - 02/01/08 11:49 PM (16 years, 4 hours ago) |
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Are these expensive as hell? Why don't more people have these?
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cactastic
You must be shroomin'

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 247
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 4 months, 28 days
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: Wolfgang]
#7967259 - 02/01/08 11:59 PM (16 years, 4 hours ago) |
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BMW was the first company to make a hydrogen powered car back in 79. Their current hydrogen car is the Hydrogen 7series with a 12 cylinder engine. Quite fast. It can run on gasoline or hydrogen, the only car to do this. Will be good for transition period. All hydrogen cars are very very expensive, if you can get one, and you cant fill up anywhere. Also, right now hydrgen is made by running an electricity current through water. Fossil fuels are used to make the electricity.
Sigh, some day.
-------------------- ▶ I'm on YT ▶ My 10+ year old Lophophoras that I grew from seed make the occasional appearance with lots of other cacti, succulents and houseplants.
 
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Wolfgang

Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 8,370
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: cactastic]
#7967302 - 02/02/08 12:15 AM (16 years, 3 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Bimmin said: All hydrogen cars are very very expensive, if you can get one, and you cant fill up anywhere.
It's a simple matter to convert ordinary internal combustion engines to run on hydrogen. All you have to do is replace the gasoline fuel injector with a hydrogen injector.
http://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2007b/070827WoodallNanotech.html
Quote:
Bimmin said:Also, right now hydrgen is made by running an electricity current through water. Fossil fuels are used to make the electricity.
There was a professor at Purdue University that figured out how to make it without fossil fuels, all he used where was aluminum, gallium and water.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/08/29/purdue-on-demand-hydrogen-from-aluminum-gallium-and-water/
Edited by Wolfgang (02/02/08 12:39 AM)
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koppie
astral projectile


Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 2,653
Loc: cloud hidden
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: Wolfgang]
#7967313 - 02/02/08 12:18 AM (16 years, 3 hours ago) |
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Try to find a hydrogen source when you're halfway accross the country with an empty tank.
No infrastructure = no practical replacement for current technology.
It will take a massive investment to change over. Bigger than the Apollo project, as big as the investment in Personal Computers over the last 20 years.
It will be worth the effort in the end, but personally I'd like to see clean burning liquid fuels. Handling gasses remains cumbersome and dangerous, especially a gas like hydrogen that can pass through the walls of a steel cylinder. (Very slowly, but some will always leak out)
Switching to clean burning fuels for cars will be a huge improvement even while we still produce them using fossil fuels. Getting the filthy fumes off the roads alone would be well worth the effort.
Then when the infrastructure is there and profitable, the switch away from fossil fuels will be relatively easy.
But by then all of us will be 20 years older, and some of us will have gotten filthy rich from hydrogen or a more practical alternative.
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: koppie]
#7967381 - 02/02/08 12:57 AM (16 years, 3 hours ago) |
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I didnt watch the video. The research at purdue is sure interesting, but you still need electricity to make the chemicals.
My opinion is that the hybrid transition to full electric is the way to go. In that case you would still need electricity to charge it, of course.
So the real question is, for equal performance on the road, which one is the most efficient and cost effective per joule of energy. It seems to me that storing electricity and using it directly would be better than storing the energy in a chemical, converting it to the energy of free hydrogen, then converting it to heat energy which then becomes mechanical and electrical. Seems like it would be less efficient to me, but Im no expert. I would prefer to have straight electric, after a period of gas/electric hybrids.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: DieCommie]
#7967492 - 02/02/08 01:48 AM (16 years, 2 hours ago) |
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Electricity can be made with solar, river, wind, tidal, rain and bio generators.
Theres many ways but companies are not willing to put the money into these methods because they can't sell you something that you can get for free.
They say our electricity consumption is too high but I don't believe that. If each individual house had its own generators then we could work in harmony with the environment.
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: Ego Death]
#7967504 - 02/02/08 01:57 AM (16 years, 2 hours ago) |
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What does that have to do with hydrogen cars? Just a little environment rant?
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: DieCommie]
#7967672 - 02/02/08 05:32 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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You need electricity to make hydrogen 
Well, thats not strictly true. There are other methods but its the common method at the moment, electrolysis of water.
I'm pretty sure we of used hydrogen cars years ago but they would rather sell us oil at insane prices. I bet the people involved own all the patents to hydrogen vehicles too.
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: Ego Death]
#7968280 - 02/02/08 11:29 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Well, thats not strictly true.
How else are you going to make it? Fossil Fuels? There is not repository of free hydrogen we can tap on earth. To make it we need energy from some other source, period.
Perhaps you think little green men will give us hydrogen?
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niteowl
GrandPaw



Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: DieCommie]
#7968360 - 02/02/08 11:56 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Electricity can be made without fossil fuels.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: niteowl]
#7968368 - 02/02/08 11:58 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yea, I know. Thats not what we are debating at all. We are debating if you can make hydrogen without electricity or fossil fuels. Ego says we can, but did not say how.
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: DieCommie]
#7968400 - 02/02/08 12:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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He said electrolysis of water. I'm not sure how efficient that would be in meeting our current energy requirements though..
I say bring the electric car back. They already killed it once.
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niteowl
GrandPaw



Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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I say bring the electric car back. They already killed it once.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: DieCommie]
#7968473 - 02/02/08 12:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: We are debating if you can make hydrogen without electricity or fossil fuels.
ego is right, an alloy of gallium and aluminum will react with water and produce hydrogen, I've cut some of the aluminum alloys we get on your plasma table, the aluminum oxides also react with some of the minerals or slag or something and produce hydrogen. the water in the burning table bubbles for days as it releases hydrogen
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: Prisoner#1]
#7968514 - 02/02/08 12:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yes, but an alloy of gallium and aluminum is not an energy source. The energy in the chemical bonds of the alloy has to come from somewhere. It comes from electricity or fossil fuels. Look into conservation of energy... It takes more energy to make the alloy than you get when you react it with water and then combust the hydrogen back into water.
Why not just use the electricity directly? You circumvent alot of loss that way. Unless somehow the energy stored in the alloy is huge. Of course there is no mention of how much energy you can get out of it (per kg for example) in the article.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
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Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: DieCommie]
#7968586 - 02/02/08 12:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: Yes, but an alloy of gallium and aluminum is not an energy source. The energy in the chemical bonds of the alloy has to come from somewhere. It comes from electricity or fossil fuels.
the manufacture of the alloy requires electricity and gas, the production of hydrogen from this alloy does not, the alloy has a strong attraction to the oxygen in the water, wasnt the statement something to the effect that you can produce hydrogen without electricity and fossil fuels? this alloy shows that you can
again, to produce the alloy energy is required but then again it's required to produce ANYTHING meant to make green energy like solar panels and wind turbines
Quote:
Why not just use the electricity directly? You circumvent alot of loss that way. Unless somehow the energy stored in the alloy is huge.
the cost is lower throughout the process to produce the alloy than it is to purchase gasoline, the alumina can be recycled and converted back to aluminum
there is no energy stored in the alloy per se, hydrogen is produced by chemical reaction when it come into contact with water, just as sodium has a reaction with water
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: Prisoner#1]
#7968643 - 02/02/08 01:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Your science is way off man, sorry.
Quote:
the manufacture of the alloy requires electricity and gas, the production of hydrogen from this alloy does not, the alloy has a strong attraction to the oxygen in the water, wasnt the statement something to the effect that you can produce hydrogen without electricity and fossil fuels? this alloy shows that you can
No, this alloy shows that you can make hydrogen with electricity and gas. To make the hydrogen from water, you need energy. Hydrogen has a higher potential energy than water. That energy has to come from somewhere. It comes from the alloy. The alloy supplies the energy to the water, making hydrogen. Where does the alloy get the energy in its chemical bonds? From gas and electricity (so you say, I believe you). So in the end you are making hydrogen from electricity and gas.
Quote:
again, to produce the alloy energy is required but then again it's required to produce ANYTHING meant to make green energy like solar panels and wind turbines
There is a huge disconnect here. The alloy does not make energy (green or otherwise). It only stores it. The energy comes from the gas and electricity. However, solar panels and wind turbines do make energy, they make it from solar radiation and air pressure. That energy can then be stored in a battery, in free hydrogen, in an aluminum alloy, or even in potential energy by pumping water up hill.
Quote:
there is no energy stored in the alloy per se, hydrogen is produced by chemical reaction when it come into contact with water, just as sodium has a reaction with water
Yes there is energy stored in teh alloy. It takes energy to spit water. If that energy doesnt come from the alloy, where does it come from?
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: DieCommie]
#7968649 - 02/02/08 01:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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So all this explaining leads me back to my original skepticism...
Quote:
So the real question is, for equal performance on the road, which one is the most efficient and cost effective per joule of energy. It seems to me that storing electricity and using it directly would be better than storing the energy in a chemical, converting it to the energy of free hydrogen, then converting it to heat energy which then becomes mechanical and electrical. Seems like it would be less efficient to me, but Im no expert. I would prefer to have straight electric, after a period of gas/electric hybrids.
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TheCow
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 4,790
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: DieCommie]
#7968703 - 02/02/08 01:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Some info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy#Methods_of_production
As far as hydrogen vs. electric I think one big difference comes down to how far one wants to go. Recharging an electric fuel cell from what I understand can take a very long time. Whereas the hydrogen fuel cell would be like filling up with gas.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: DieCommie]
#7968775 - 02/02/08 01:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: So in the end you are making hydrogen from electricity and gas.
in actuality, there is no green energy because electricity is used in all aspects of manufacturing whether it be in the production process, lighting, computers, etc, it also includes fossil fuels like transportation for employees and products,
Quote:
There is a huge disconnect here. The alloy does not make energy (green or otherwise). It only stores it. The energy comes from the gas and electricity. However, solar panels and wind turbines do make energy, they make it from solar radiation and air pressure. That energy can then be stored in a battery, in free hydrogen, in an aluminum alloy, or even in potential energy by pumping water up hill.
hahaha... no electricity is use to produce hydrogen from the aluminum/gallium alloy it is how ever used in the manufacturing process just as it is with every other form of 'green' energy, just like the solar panels and turbines
Quote:
Yes there is energy stored in teh alloy. It takes energy to spit water. If that energy doesnt come from the alloy, where does it come from?
by this accounting there is energy stored in everything, why dont we tap into a rock, tree or mule for our energy, maybe you need to define what 'energy' is for this discussion because when I think about stored energy I dont look at the rock and say "Hmmm, this has a great deal of potential kenetic energy, let me demonstrate by breaking out that car window'
how much stored energy is in a solar panel that sits in your closet?
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: Prisoner#1]
#7969003 - 02/02/08 02:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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.
Edited by DieCommie (01/27/14 07:02 PM)
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: Prisoner#1]
#7969052 - 02/02/08 02:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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The aluminium is the fuel, the gallium the catalyst:
Al + 3 H2O --gallium or mercury--> Al(OH)3 + 1 1/2 H2
Aluminium is a fuel we manufacture from its oxidized state by electrolysis, exactly like hydrogen. But Aluminium electrolysis is far less efficient.
Aluminium metal is a wonderful storage medium for energy, a mole of electrons as aluminium weighs just nine grams, but this process is endothermic - uses more energy than it delivers - far worse even than hydrogen itself.
What we need is PRIMARY ENERGY. Processes that yield far more energy than it costs. On the longer term, the biggest players would be space-based solar and Deuterium fusion, both exploiting thermonuclear reactions.
Fusion or bust.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: DieCommie]
#7969259 - 02/02/08 03:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
Well, thats not strictly true.
How else are you going to make it? Fossil Fuels? There is not repository of free hydrogen we can tap on earth. To make it we need energy from some other source, period.
Perhaps you think little green men will give us hydrogen?
Quit being you asked me what it has to do with hydrogen, I explained it. No need to get all butt-hurt and offensive.
Anyway, there ARE other ways of making hydrogen. There are chemical and biological methods.
The other week I was reading on the science forum here that they are developing new chemical methods which are looking to be extremely efficient.
I read through your replies but seems you are just spouting rubbish out in some ego frenzy to prove to yourself that you are correct.
Try listening to other people here, conversation is a 2 way thing. You are not conversing.
Edited by Ego Death (02/02/08 03:53 PM)
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: DieCommie]
#7969313 - 02/02/08 03:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Let me do the work for you eh?
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7630937#7630937
Heres the article.
Now go argue with the scientists who are researching this. My trust certainly lays with them over your assertive opinions.
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: Asante]
#7969362 - 02/02/08 04:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wiccan_Seeker said: Fusion or bust.
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: trendal]
#7969382 - 02/02/08 04:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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you guys wanna talk to america about this?
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: Prisoner#1]
#7969385 - 02/02/08 04:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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damn that sounded like a veiled threat to let george off the chain
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: Ego Death]
#7970345 - 02/02/08 08:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ego Death said:http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7630937#7630937
Heres the article.
Thats good. You see the key difference between this research and the research on the alloy right? These scientists are researching a new energy 'source'. The ones researching the aluminum gallium are only researching a way to 'store' energy. The energy must still be had from somewhere else, and as Wiccan pointed out, storing energy in aluminum is less efficient than in hydrogen itself.
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Engineer
Coolest Hood inthe City of God

Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 56
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
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Re: hydrogen powered cars [Re: DieCommie]
#8071327 - 02/26/08 03:05 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I feel I should contribute to this. I've been VERY active in the solar/alternative vehicle arena for the past 15 years. Wiccan is right...clean nuclear power is the most likely immediate answer. As far as vehicles go, the energy density of hydrogen, even adsorbed onto metal hydrides or compressed to liquid, is nothing compared to gasoline.
I've worked with silicon solar cells that have broken 30% efficiency, and when they get cheap (they will), they could be used as a roofing material. This could be used to charge lithium chemistry batteries or, possibly, flywheels/kinetic storage devices. A hydrogen economy is unlikely, but if it does work the hydrogen storage won't be on vehicles. Trust me, I'm all for it, but I think batteries will be the main in-vehicle energy storage device for quite awhile.
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