Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2  [ show all ]
InvisibleLuddite
I watch Fox News
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
Re: If the US brings all troops home tomorrow is the world a better place? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7969377 - 02/02/08 04:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Robert Trahan: Here’s why the Iraqis want U.S. to stay

WASHINGTON (Map, News) - As a veteran of the first Gulf War’s Operation Desert Shield/Storm and the current conflict’s Operation Iraqi Freedom, I witnessed the people of Iraq and the level of violence change over a 14-year period.

Following Desert Storm, I was in northern Iraq as part of the humanitarian relief effort called Operation Provide Comfort when we informed the Iraqi Kurds that we were pulling out. I saw the fear in their eyes and saw the hope they had for a better future vanish. They knew far better than we did what lay in store for them.

We were welcomed by the people of Iraq (especially the Kurds) in 1991, and once the surrender was in effect, we had very little fear of any insurgent activities or attacks. I actually went into Iraqi occupied territory south of the northern “no-fly zone” on a mission with the United Nations.

We went in unarmed, with no body armor, under the U.N. flag and, apart from some uneasiness at Iraqi army checkpoints, felt relatively safe considering the environment we were in. That mission would be suicide to repeat today.

The dirty little secret that the average American does not know, and does not see from most media outlets today, is that the Iraqi people are glad we came back and removed Saddam Hussein from power. They want a chance at freedom and will continue to work hard to put a viable government in place.

I had the privilege to watch as people stood in line for hours, despite the threat of attacks by insurgents, to cast their first vote in free elections in 2005. The Iraqi people understood and appreciated what a huge opportunity this was for them. Despite the threats, they took a stand for freedom.

Contrast this to the low voter turnout we have become accustomed to here in the United States, where people don’t take the time to exercise this most valuable right in the safety of their local precincts. Give the Iraqis support and time, and they will establish an island of democracy in the Middle East.

We arrived in Iraq in 2003 with a credibility problem of our own making that began by leaving Hussein in power in 1991. The Iraqi people need to know we support them and will see them through to the end this time.

The damage to the credibility of the United States would be tremendous if we abandon the Iraqi people, and not just in the Middle East. We would also leave the Iraqis to face a power vacuum that would be exploited by Iran, Hamas, al Qaeda, Hezbollah and others among the pantheon of radical Islamist groups committed to Jihad.

Gen. David Petraeus’ surge plan is working, as news organizations are finally (if not grudgingly) beginning to report. We must afford him and his commanders the time and resources to institute his plan effectively. Then an adequate judgment can be made of the results.

For our Congress to continually demand arbitrary troop withdrawal dates, threaten to cut off funds and fight our president and military commanders in the field at every turn does nothing but embolden our enemies and steel them with the resolve to continue their insurgent activities. They see our disunity as a weakness and an unwillingness to see this through to the appropriate end, which for us can only be victory.

Our history in Vietnam and Somalia should have taught us that military decisions need to be made by the military commanders with boots on the ground in theater, not by politicians in Washington.

Our own government struggled from the 1776 creation of the Declaration of Independence, through the fighting of the Revolutionary War, to finally ratifying our Constitution beginning in September 1787. How would our founders have done with France looking over their shoulder, telling them to hurry up?

It has not been 11 years for the Iraqi people, and they face issues, problems and situations never imagined by our great forefathers. We must understand that it will take the Iraqi government some time, but with patience and support, it can prevail.

Robert Trahan is retired from the Army National Guard and works for a defense contractor at Fort Belvoir.

http://www.examiner.com/a-909358~Robert_Trahan__Here_s_why_the_Iraqis_want_U_S__to_stay.html



Check out what some of these Iraqi-Americans are saying about Iraq and Saddam Hussein:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/jan-june03/iraqi_3-18.html

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2003/n03282003_200303288.html

Bush meets with Iraqi-Americans: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/04/images/20030428-3_d042803-515h.html
http://tinyurl.com/ef7zh

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1705


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/latestnewsstory.cfm?storyID=3545668&thesection=news&thesubsection=world
http://tinyurl.com/okpmc



Anti-war sentiments prevail at forum

by Sean McGuern
Staff Writer

Apr. 17, 2003

Congressman Steny Hoyer defended his backing of the war in Iraq to about 100 constituents Tuesday at the Greenbelt Community Center during a two-and-a-half hour forum.

The 11-term Democratic Congressman said that while he has not supported many of the Bush Administration's international policies, he continues to stand behind Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Cautious not to appear as a "Bush apologist," Hoyer said it was appropriate for the president to seek backing from the United Nations, and that the failure of the U.N. Security Council to agree on a resolution did not mandate a delay in military tactics. "The United Nations decided to not enforce its own judgment," Hoyer said. "In many ways, [it] made the world a more dangerous place."

Several audience members expressed their concerns that the adaptation of what they perceived as a preemptive strike doctrine sets a dangerous precedent.

Hoyer agreed, saying that an international adoption of such a policy would have grievous consequences, but insisted that the United States acted to forestall a global threat.

Hoyer said in remarks at the Center for Strategic and International Studies last month that since the adoption of Resolution 1441 by the international community, United States and British warplanes patrolling the southern no-fly zone have been fired at more that 200 times. "I reject any assertion that an armed initiative against Iraq at this time is the implementation of such a preemptive strike," Hoyer said at the time, but rather "a response to military provocation repeatedly taken by Iraq." He added that a military campaign was an enforcement measure designed to foster "peace and security."

While the majority of the audience members commended Hoyer Monday for his candidness and ability to avoid terse political rhetoric, few reacted genially to his position that the United States has a moral obligation to confront human rights violations throughout the world.

"You are my representative, but you do not represent me," Adelphi resident Ann Stoddard told the Democratic Whip.

"You can tell me what to vote," Hoyer replied, "but you cannot tell me what to think."

At one point in the discussion, Hoyer said the death of an Iraqi citizen was unfortunate but he did not waiver in his position on the war.

"I believe in a robust foreign policy and confronting tyrannical governments," Hoyer told the crowd.

Others were more pragmatic in their opposition to the war. Takoma Park resident Alan Mattlage noted that while the United States has spent approximately $80 billion on this operation in addition to the $400 billion allotted by Congress last year for the military, many states including Maryland continue to struggle with budget shortfalls.

When Mattlage said that money would be better spent on health care, affordable housing and education, those gathered responded by stomping their feet, clapping their hands and whistling.

A handful of audience members who spoke in favor of the war were jeered. Jerry Dancis of Greenbelt said that the United States was justified in its action, and that the unfortunate death of Iraqi civilians would ultimately save more lives. "The casualties are considerably less than the number Saddam has inflicted in the past or would inflict if we allowed him to remain," Dancis said to boisterous objections.

In closing, Hoyer paraphrased the political theorist Edmond Burke.

"What [representatives] owe [their] constituents is our best judgment," he said.

E-mail Sean McGuern at smcguern@gazette.net.




http://www.gazette.net/200316/greenbelt/news/154275-1.html


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLuddite
I watch Fox News
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
Re: If the US brings all troops home tomorrow is the world a better place? [Re: Luddite]
    #7969412 - 02/02/08 04:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCoaster
Baʿal
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 33,501
Loc: Deep in the Valley
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: If the US brings all troops home, is the world a better place tomorrow? [Re: downforpot]
    #7969479 - 02/02/08 04:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


You are ignoring the fact that it didn't just become peaceful after we left. You are changing the subject. So saying that it all became peaceful after we left is a LIE.




no it wasnt immediately peaceful its true, but was the american lives lost really worth it? no way, the american occupation only made the situation worse, you dont understand that sending troops to create peace is counterproductive



Quote:


Yes and you are ignoring the original point which stated that we fucked it up. It was already fucked.



ya it was already fucked, then we came in and fucked our efforts of trying to help them out. we tried to help them, but in reality we made it worse. was our cost in american lives worth it? no it was already fucked, and then we came in, lost some men, left, then it was still fucked. how was that worth it


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleim_on_a_boat
Stranger

Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 3,950
Re: If the US brings all troops home, is the world a better place tomorrow? [Re: ledfut]
    #7969496 - 02/02/08 04:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

who is this character?

and why do you make your replies similar to mine?

as in.. double spaced?

*intrigued* :justdontknow:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledownforpot
Stranger
Male
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: If the US brings all troops home, is the world a better place tomorrow? [Re: Coaster]
    #7969522 - 02/02/08 04:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:


no it wasnt immediately peaceful its true, but was the american lives lost really worth it? no way, the american occupation only made the situation worse, you dont understand that sending troops to create peace is counterproductive




That's not what we are talking about. You are changing the subjects. The fact is that it didn't become peaceful after we left. Took some time...



Quote:

Coaster said:
ya it was already fucked, then we came in and fucked our efforts of trying to help them out. we tried to help them, but in reality we made it worse. was our cost in american lives worth it? no it was already fucked, and then we came in, lost some men, left, then it was still fucked. how was that worth it




Again, you are changing the subject. You were talking about how we fucked it up. We didn't fuck shit up, it was already fucked.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCoaster
Baʿal
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 33,501
Loc: Deep in the Valley
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: If the US brings all troops home, is the world a better place tomorrow? [Re: downforpot]
    #7969543 - 02/02/08 05:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

um ok dood i now conclude that u r the 1 that is lost


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: If the US brings all troops home, is the world a better place tomorrow? [Re: Coaster]
    #7969653 - 02/02/08 05:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No, he is accurately pointing out your astonishingly mushy thinking and utter disregard for history.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
Re: If the US brings all troops home, is the world a better place tomorrow? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7969712 - 02/02/08 05:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Somalia isn't the point here anyways.

No matter what anyone says in response to the original question, it's all just speculation anyways. Either we leave and shit goes even more awry than it is presently or we leave and Muslims rejoice and leave us the fuck alone. The original is probably considered more realistic based on precedent, but the latter can't be ruled out b/c there is no scenario showing cases in which it is not true.

Mostly, people are just spouting party line rhetoric.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCalifornia
A E S T H E T I C S A T A N
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 72,118
Loc: H A U N T E D H O U S E Flag
Re: If the US brings all troops home tomorrow is the world a better place? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7969808 - 02/02/08 06:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No.
If it isn't U.S. it would be someother countries troops in any given place.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledownforpot
Stranger
Male
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: If the US brings all troops home, is the world a better place tomorrow? [Re: Redstorm]
    #7969814 - 02/02/08 06:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Basically after we leave there will probably be an escalation of the civil war and maybe a genocide. Saudi Arabia might step in and since we have already been selling them weapons on top of a new arms deal just signed... well... you know. Let them fight it out, slaughter eachother.

Sunnis and Shias have been slaughtering each other for centuries anyway.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineledfut
I once jerkedoff w/ bothhands
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 15 years, 20 days
Re: If the US brings all troops home, is the world a better place tomorrow? [Re: im_on_a_boat]
    #7969858 - 02/02/08 06:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

drkrobotnik said:
who is this character?

and why do you make your replies similar to mine?

as in.. double spaced?

*intrigued* :justdontknow:


i didn't even realize it. i always do that. i guess we're both just cool like that.


--------------------
May our only occupation be not having a job.
May the only cocktails that we make be molitov.
-Johnny Hobo and the Freight Trains


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
 User Gallery


Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
Re: If the US brings all troops home, is the world a better place tomorrow? [Re: Redstorm]
    #7970056 - 02/02/08 07:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Somalia isn't the point here anyways.

No matter what anyone says in response to the original question, it's all just speculation anyways. Either we leave and shit goes even more awry than it is presently or we leave and Muslims rejoice and leave us the fuck alone. The original is probably considered more realistic based on precedent, but the latter can't be ruled out b/c there is no scenario showing cases in which it is not true.

Mostly, people are just spouting party line rhetoric.




Agreed, again.

But I think there is little more than 0% chance of the latter scenario happening.

I don't see how if we aren't there they are going to magically love us. We're still beaming our heathen television and media all over the globe and corrupting the minds of their wholesome children and perpetrating other acts of Godless Capitalism.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* American Ego Psilocybeingzz 915 14 04/21/03 12:15 PM
by TheCaptain
* 35 children killed by insurgents downforpot 632 1 09/30/04 05:29 PM
by Divided_Sky
* Insurgents Target Iraqi Police; 59 Dead
( 1 2 3 4 all )
RandalFlagg 4,450 62 09/16/04 04:37 PM
by Zahid
* American imperialism - for RailGun headphone 1,518 4 09/06/01 01:08 AM
by MrKurtz
* Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, kids
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Zahid 6,781 89 09/28/04 11:00 PM
by Phred
* Commander: US Troops in Iraq Through 2006 Zahid 684 1 10/19/03 12:20 AM
by wingnutx
* Americans Are Losing The Victory (yes, it is a quagmire) wingnutx 566 1 10/20/03 10:57 AM
by Anonymous
* 43 Attacks on Americans in Iraq Yesterday
( 1 2 all )
Zahid 2,296 24 10/30/03 04:46 PM
by PsiloKitten

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
1,339 topic views. 2 members, 5 guests and 3 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.027 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 14 queries.