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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Donate Today For Freedom!
#7963666 - 02/01/08 06:56 AM (16 years, 19 hours ago) |
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One of the greatest anomalies of this presidental race has been the rise of a new movement in politics, in which average people have organized themselves, largely through the Internet, to put forward a candidate that would have otherwise not stood a chance of getting this far, a man that stands for the ideals that this country was founded upon.
With today's corporate media and a government that has no remorse for taking money from people for catastrophic spending and for taking the value of that money from you by printing it, printing it, printing it, and then borrowing billions from other nations so they can spend even more, stacking the cards agansit our chance of having a prosperous future, having a candidate put forth by the people like this, and seeing him accomplish so much in the face of a corporate/government system hell-bent on controlling our lives, taking away our wealth by crippling our economy with their spending and creating inflation is one of the most inspiring things I've seen.
The fact that Ron Paul's campaign has accomplished so much and persevered in the face of all this is a great sign that there is still hope for this country, mostly due to the fact that there have been hundreds of thousands of people who have voted and donated for him, and have worked to keep him going to spread the truth.
Ron Paul has said that, as long as his supporters continue to donate, he will continue to run. Today the grass-roots is donating for the 51st wedding anniversary of himself and his wife, Carol. He's defeated candidates praised by the media as front-runners several times and continued on as they drop out of the race, and he's taken second place in two states. While the chances of him winning the Republican nomination have slimmed, it is likely that one to two more candidates will drop out after Super Tuesday, leaving him in to continue to battle in the dozens of remaining states, head-to-head with a man who has received barely any donations from American people, and has simply been crowned by the corporate media.
Of course, this has less to do with winning the nomination and much more to do with making a stand and getting the message out, saving the Republic. Ron Paul's continued presence has accomplished great things in this regard, and what is really most important is the rippling effect he has had with the American people.
If you have ever thought that it made no sense for the government to take away your right to decide for yourself if you will injest drugs, then donate today, because Ron Paul is standing for the principle that we are free to do so, and has expressed as much in the mainstream media. Of course, this is just a sliver of what Ron Paul's message is and what he stands for, but I'm not going to type forever.
$1, $5, $20, $100... what matters most is the amount of people who are expressing that they believe in this.
http://www.ronpaul2008.com
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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spud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
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Fuck Ron Paul.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: spud]
#7964371 - 02/01/08 11:14 AM (16 years, 15 hours ago) |
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Thanks for your opinion.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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brainsOplenty
myconut



Registered: 06/27/06
Posts: 750
Loc: on your sister
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: spud]
#7964390 - 02/01/08 11:18 AM (16 years, 15 hours ago) |
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Quote:
spud said: Fuck Ron Paul.
i agree! if you look at what the previously republican controlled government has done to this country in the last 8 years. hell it just makes me sick.
oh and can we get this thread moved , seems there is nothing in this thread that has to do with cultivation
-------------------- FOR GOD'S SAKE MAN! TELL ME ABOUT THE FUCKING GOLF SHOES!!! LIVIN THE LIFE!!! "WE KNOCK NIGGAS OUT AND MAKE EM BOUNCE LIKE RICKY HATTON"- IMMORTAL TECHNIQUE
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Cowgold
Bullshit


Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 12,486
Loc: .
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Do you have a referal email?
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OneMoreRobot3021



Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 61,024
Loc: the sky
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Why keep pouring money into a black hole?
-------------------- Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake. -Erik Davis
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Cowgold
Bullshit


Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 12,486
Loc: .
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To be heard.
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OneMoreRobot3021



Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 61,024
Loc: the sky
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Cowgold]
#7964432 - 02/01/08 11:27 AM (16 years, 15 hours ago) |
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There are better ways to be heard than to become part of some aggregate figure that Ron Paul displays as a sign of success even in defeat when he inevitably drops out of the race.
-------------------- Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake. -Erik Davis
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
brainsOplenty said: i agree! if you look at what the previously republican controlled government has done to this country in the last 8 years. hell it just makes me sick.
If you're determining a candidate's merit by their party affiliation, then you're so uninformed that it is kind of sickening.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Cowgold
Bullshit


Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 12,486
Loc: .
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He represents some of the core bullshit issues that are, for the most part, overlooked. And because he's pushing these bullshit issues, I don't have to. I can go on about my life and not worry about bullshit politics. Giving a little is a hell of a lot cheaper than donating my time to bullshit. Politics is too frustrating to me. I feel sure that he probably won't win, but I still want him to push his bullshit issues.
Plus, I'll spend my money on whatever I want.
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Freedom = biodiesel fuel, solar power, homegrown veggies, home brewed beer, etc.
Want to change the world? Do what it takes to get free from dependence on large corporations.
The game is rigged, Hillary has already been chosen, WE HAVE NO CHOICE other than what systems we support with our $!
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
OneLessForeskin said: Why keep pouring money into a black hole?
It isn't a black hole. The black hole is what has been leading this country down this course for decades.
Who is pouring money into a black hole? Every single American is.
Have you ever heard of the federal income tax? Surely most here have been conditioned to pay it, probably never even questioned the fact that they pay it, likely think it is some kind of necessity that they pay into it... The deficit spending is getting insane, they continue to print money, destroying the dollar, thinking that these rate cuts are actually helping prevent the inevitable, and then these idiots propose to the American people that they are going to cut welfare checks as though it is going to save the economy... Newsflash - INCREASED FEDERAL SPENDING IS THE FUCKING PROBLEM. They are either as stupid as some people around here or they are intentionally doing this...
And then you suggest that supporting the voice that stands out agansit THE black hole is simply tossing money away?

Some people see this and they want the only man positioned to speak out and reach the American people to make a fucking stand. So, they donate. Some people are either too ignorant or complacent to willfully allowing a government to take money from people, SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND IT, but to not stop there, but to also BORROW BORROW BORROW IT, and then to suck the remaining wealth from the poeple by PRINTING IT PRINTING IT PRINTING IT PRINTING IT. And the answer to all of this? Increased federal spending to send out welfare checks to people?
If they were honest or intelligent in seeking to help the economy, they would get the government out of the way by slashing spending and slashing taxes. If they really wanted to help the American people, they wouldn't tax the money in the first place.
They could theoretically say that, well, for this paycheck, no taxes will be taken out. Of course, this is impossible, because America's financial situation is a delicate house of cards, and that money has been borrowed several times over before they have even taken it from you.
And what do you get when you look to the field of presidental candiates? A whole line of morons who don't have any sense of monetary policy, no understanding of the economy.
For instance, you have people like McCain who shifts discussion to Iraq to avoid the fact that he has no sense of the economy, even though the public has become less and less concerned about Iraq as the deep recession we are facing threatens to take away our livelihood. You then have him assert when Ron Paul stands face-to-face with Romney and McCain that he agrees with Ron Paul, that he wants to cut spending, but yet he won't look to the one place that he could cut the MOST spending, all within sole authority of the President - bring the troops home from Iraq, bring them home from Korea, bring them home from Germany and Japan...
Its a proven fact that it costs about a trillion dollars to maintain our troop presence overseas every year, which is pretty much the same amount of money they are taking from you in federal income taxes.
When Ron Paul stands up on national television and speaks directly regarding all of this, referring to our empire, referring to the inevitable that the government is taking away from Americans to inflict on the American people, probably just from the incompetance most have been conditioned with, most see it as well worth the investment to keep him going.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
OneLessForeskin said: There are better ways to be heard than to become part of some aggregate figure that Ron Paul displays as a sign of success even in defeat when he inevitably drops out of the race.
Please tell me how YOU are going to stand up and tell the federal government to stop taking your money and ruining your country with their spending of it, with their devaluing of it by printing it, and by their ensuring they will take more from you by borrowing it.
A ten-term Congressmen who has received more funding from more Americans than nearly any other candidate, certainly on the Republican side, who has a consistent voting record, and is actually appearing on national television in the debates is facing a huge rip-tide of movement towards the abyss. He's been fighting, fighting, fighting agansit this for thirty years, right now is the culmination, in which hundreds of thousands of Americans have already voted and donated for him. A global, corporate/political machine pre-excluded him and continue to work agansit him. Dirty tricks in the media as well as in state caucuses have been well-documented.
Fact is, Ron Paul has had a great amount of success for someone fighting such an up-hill battle. As the only candidate put forth by the American people, solely and truly, it only makes sense to keep fighting, keep him going as long and as hard as he can, because we're looking to push ourselves far enough ahead now that we can be in a position to lay the foundation for a turning point in it all. This isn't about winning the Presidency, but its surely about fighting for it and making our voice heard, creating a new movement to turn the tide in the favor of the people.
Surely some people who have never really fought for this and are so quick to write off continuing to support him can easily say "ahh there are better ways to get your voice heard", but talk is cheap, and no one is really listening to them.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Middleman]
#7964632 - 02/01/08 12:14 PM (16 years, 14 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Middleman said: Freedom = biodiesel fuel, solar power, homegrown veggies, home brewed beer, etc.
Want to change the world? Do what it takes to get free from dependence on large corporations.
Exactly! Change isn't just in the political arena, but actually participating by supporting the one candiate who truly understands what is happening and seeks to act in our interest, so that we are given the opportunity to be free, is crucial. Collective efforts are much easier.
Besides, none of that is going to be possible if the means to do so is removed by crippling our economy and taxing your private property.
Quote:
The game is rigged, Hillary has already been chosen, WE HAVE NO CHOICE other than what systems we support with our $!
To some extent, the corporate/political world are pushing her forward, but this doesn't mean it is inevitable. A strong effort in every precint ensures the American people are actually informed of what they won't say and brings them out to vote.
Its so easy to write off someone in Ron Paul, but the fact is that he represents a new force in politics that never existed, and they are learning fast. It might be too late to get him the Republican nomination, but what the grass-roots has accomplished in such a short time, facing such a curve agansit them, is truly amazing.
I also encourage everyone to check out the precint captain program on his official website. I believe they have already registered 15,000 people, and this is by far the most effective way to win. There have been well-documented cases of Ron Paul winning counties in Iowa, precints in Florida and Nevada, etc., all due to a strong, local effort. If you want to win, bypass the system and get straight to the people. This is something the movement could not have been prepared for, but they learned fast and they are still out there making it happen.
The simple fact remains that this isn't over.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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A: Why is this stickied? Can we get a "Donate to Barack Obama" post stickied?
B: I knew you were lying when you said you would shut up if Paul didn't win Iowa. People like you can never manage to keep themselves quiet.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Mankey


Registered: 07/30/05
Posts: 2,203
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! *DELETED* [Re: fireworks_god]
#7964676 - 02/01/08 12:24 PM (16 years, 14 hours ago) |
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Post deleted by MankeyReason for deletion: .
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OneMoreRobot3021



Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 61,024
Loc: the sky
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
OneLessForeskin said: There are better ways to be heard than to become part of some aggregate figure that Ron Paul displays as a sign of success even in defeat when he inevitably drops out of the race.
Please tell me how YOU are going to stand up and tell the federal government to stop taking your money and ruining your country with their spending of it, with their devaluing of it by printing it, and by their ensuring they will take more from you by borrowing it.
I have zero intent of explaining my personal political motives or expressions to the smug likes of yourself, I'll wait for someone who doesn't throw smirks and lol-smileys out after everything they say. Conversation with you in the realm of politics is an utter turn-off.
-------------------- Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake. -Erik Davis
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Ron Paul is Anti-Choice and has a rather repressive, racist immigration policy. A lot of people around here seem to jump on the bandwagon with his appealing views on drug use, but he is a traditional right wing Libertarian. In the current American political climate, he may seem exciting and radical but he isn't. He's on the far end of the right wing.
Do you people who like him so much actually know what his entire platform is? Sure he's got a few appealing items on there, but he's got some nasty stuff on there too. His policies on abortion, immigration and social services are frightening.
Take a look at this America: This is the spectrum of choice you have. It's a sad state of affairs.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: A: Why is this stickied? Can we get a "Donate to Barack Obama" post stickied?
It is stickied because I created the thread, contacted the administration, requested this be globally stickied for the day, they decided to sticky it, and then you saw it and made your stupid post. Is reality that hard to comprehend?
Also, maybe if your candidate wasn't a single-term bag of hot air that has no real stance on any issue and no chance of taking on Hillary Clinton, then maybe your thread you haven't made and haven't requested to be stickied would get stickied. You need to be more proactive, apparently.
Quote:
B: I knew you were lying when you said you would shut up if Paul didn't win Iowa. People like you can never manage to keep themselves quiet.
My statement was regarding predictions and analysis of how the race would occur. People like you can never manage to understand reality if it smacked them in the face, apparently. Backing a candidate who does not speak for cutting federal spending, even if they don't mean it, should be the first clue regarding that.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
OneLessForeskin said: I have zero intent of explaining my personal political motives or expressions to the smug likes of yourself, I'll wait for someone who doesn't throw smirks and lol-smileys out after everything they say. Conversation with you in the realm of politics is an utter turn-off.
Translation: Its simple for you to make quick one-liners, but as soon as a substansial discussion is thrown down regarding ideas, you'd rather make up excuses about simple emoticons than stand up agansit what was actually said.
on better ways to get the message out. I don't smirk nearly as much as John McCain does, doesn't stop Ron Paul from standing up to him on national television. You have a long way to go, pup.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7964771 - 02/01/08 12:44 PM (16 years, 13 hours ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said: Ron Paul is Anti-Choice and has a rather repressive, racist immigration policy. A lot of people around here seem to jump on the bandwagon with his appealing views on drug use, but he is a traditional right wing Libertarian. In the current American political climate, he may seem exciting and radical but he isn't. He's on the far end of the right wing.
Do you people who like him so much actually know what his entire platform is? Sure he's got a few appealing items on there, but he's got some nasty stuff on there too. His policies on abortion, immigration and social services are frightening.
Thanks for honestly seeking out discussion.
How much do you know about his stance on abortion? To quickly summarize, he states that it is unconstitutional for the federal government to legislate for/agansit it. He has expressed that it is a very complex issue, and thus, the more local it should be handled.
His personal stance on the matter is as a doctor who has delivered 4000 babies and witnessed in medical school an occasion when a live baby was tossed in a bucket and everyone pretended they couldn't hear it scream as it died. He sees it as a violent, almost always unnecessary act. I don't think very many people could state that it isn't violent and that it isn't almost always unnecessary.
In which manner do you feel his immigration policy is racist and repressive? I've heard him say in national debates that illegal immigrants are too often used as scapegoats, and that if we were more wise in our economic policies, they would probably we welcomed and accepted. Also, what concerning social services causes you concern? I've seen him as a strong advocate regarding the role churches used to play in social services, especially in hospitals and medical care (before corporations and government edged them out). His stance regarding welfare is almost surely regarding the federal level, and I'm certain he sees nothing wrong with an individual state choosing to provide social services. Please clarify.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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OneMoreRobot3021



Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 61,024
Loc: the sky
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: You have a long way to go, pup.
Case in point, Captain Smug.
-------------------- Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake. -Erik Davis
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Its truly the end of the world, isn't it? I hardly see how holding such an attitude in the face of someone who would suggest that being a patriot by actively participating in the political process is throwing money into a black hole and then won't step up when they are directly challenged on the matter is a bad thing. Maybe if people would honestly seek out discussion and not have their head stuck up their own ass they wouldn't receive such attitude in the first place.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
It is stickied because I created the thread, contacted the administration, requested this be globally stickied for the day, they decided to sticky it, and then you saw it and made your stupid post. Is reality that hard to comprehend?
Thats pretty close to just blatant trolling. Are you a little defensive today?
Quote:
Also, maybe if your candidate wasn't a single-term bag of hot air that has no real stance on any issue and no chance of taking on Hillary Clinton, then maybe your thread you haven't made and haven't requested to be stickied would get stickied. You need to be more proactive, apparently.
Hey, at least my candidate has won something. Ron Paul has not, can not, and will not ever win a single primary. Your irrational belief to the contrary flies in the face of all the evidence and borders on religious fervor.
But I'm sure if RP was to declare himself to the Messiah tomorrow you'd swallow that hook, line, and sinker too.
Quote:
My statement was regarding predictions and analysis of how the race would occur. People like you can never manage to understand reality if it smacked them in the face, apparently. Backing a candidate who does not speak for cutting federal spending, even if they don't mean it, should be the first clue regarding that.
No, you said you'd shut the fuck up if he didn't win. He didn't win, and you haven't changed one bit.
You're still arrogant. You're still conceited. And your sole debate tactic remains insulting other people and questioning their reading comprehension. You can call me brainwashed or stupid all you want, but I at am able to make the logical leap to understand that other people hold viewpoints contrary to my own, which seems to be absolutely beyond you.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The U.S. military isn't ready for a catastrophic attack on the country, and National Guard forces don't have the equipment or training they need for the job, according to a report.
Even fewer Army National Guard units are combat-ready today than were nearly a year ago when the Commission on the National Guard and Reserves determined that 88 percent of the units were not prepared for the fight, the panel says in a new report released Thursday.
The independent commission is charged by Congress to recommend changes in law and policy concerning the Guard and Reserves.
The commission's 400-page report concludes that the nation "does not have sufficient trained, ready forces available" to respond to a chemical, biological or nuclear weapons incident, "an appalling gap that places the nation and its citizens at greater risk."
"Right now we don't have the forces we need, we don't have them trained, we don't have the equipment," commission Chairman Arnold Punaro said in an interview with The Associated Press. "Even though there is a lot going on in this area, we need to do a lot more. ... There's a lot of things in the pipeline, but in the world we live in -- you're either ready or you're not."
In response, Air Force Gen. Gene Renuart, chief of U.S. Northern command, said the Pentagon is putting together a specialized military team that would be designed to respond to such catastrophic events.
Of course, Ron Paul has been saying this for months, and he's been speaking out agansit our economic policy and foreign operations for years. It sure would suck to have someone with such foresight and dedication to acting in the face of adversity in the White House.
Of course, the answer could never be to bring our troops home to defend ourselves here, while simultanteously removing the incentive for radicals in other nations to seek action agansit us. I'm sure the answer is increased federal spending and a draft.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Where is this catastrophic attack on our country coming from?!
This is fear mongering of the worst kind.
Is Canada invading Detroit? Is Mexico staging a take-over of El Paso?
Who exactly do we need 500,000 troops here to defend AGAINST? How are national guard units going to prevent a terrorist attack? Since you cannot actually be advocating that a conventional attack is possible?
That would be out in left field, even for you...
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said:ahh Thats pretty close to just blatant trolling. Are you a little defensive today?
Answering a stupid question with the obvious is blatant trolling?
Quote:
Hey, at least my candidate has won something. Ron Paul has not, can not, and will not ever win a single primary. Your irrational belief to the contrary flies in the face of all the evidence and borders on religious fervor.
I may quote you on that definite statement in a couple of days. Anyways, he beat all but one candidate in Nevada, and beat every candidate in the Louisiana caucus, taking second behind an uncommited delegate slate. I have no respect for Obama's wins as he's just some media-sponsored candidate with no real substance. The fact that Ron Paul has done so well strictly on his own merit and the support of the American people is a much greater accomplishment.
Quote:
No, you said you'd shut the fuck up if he didn't win. He didn't win, and you haven't changed one bit.
Referring, of course, debate in PA&L. This was created as a global sticky for a specific purpose, and it has been a couple of months since Iowa, so I think you're just being blatantly obtuse.
Quote:
You're still arrogant. You're still conceited. And your sole debate tactic remains insulting other people and questioning their reading comprehension.
Nonsense, I'm simply responding in like kind to the exhibited behavior of you and OMR that is very much in the same vein. There is discussion of the ideas presented, and then there is this petty squabbling back and forth that you are just as guilty in perpetuating. You're the one who has turned this into a direct personalisms debate, not me. I haven't made any statements regarding your personal nature, yet you refer to me as arrogant, condescending, etc. There is a difference between having fun with emoticons and pointed statements, and simply being bluntly engaged in personalisms with no substance. For you to declare some misconception of my "sole debate tatic" in such a manner is simply inaccurate. I productively engage in discussion of the ideas first and foremost, although I admit I give incentive for individuals with no interest in engaging in debate to focus on nothing but emoticons and the occasional pointed jab I make in the course of actually debating ideas. Also, I've only suggested that a small handful of people could use some reading comprehension over time, so maybe you're just one of those people who could use some? 
Quote:
You can call me brainwashed or stupid all you want, but I at am able to make the logical leap to understand that other people hold viewpoints contrary to my own, which seems to be absolutely beyond you.
If that is how it seems to you, then it is pretty unfortunate because I'd have previously given you more credit than to reach such a conclusion. It is amazing to think that, in the course of engaging in a debate between contrary viewpoints, that I would not recognize that others hold a contrary viewpoint. 
I'm still trying to grasp that one... people... hold differing viewpoints than my own?
I appreciate you acknowleding that I can call you brainwashed or stupid all I want, but I personally do not resort to such simple-minded allegations of the personal nature of others, even as others create poorly-constructed strawmen asserting otherwise.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
Edited by fireworks_god (02/01/08 01:56 PM)
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: Where is this catastrophic attack on our country coming from?!
Who knows? I'm sure people asked the same question before 9/11 as well. We've certainly given incentive for individuals in the Middle East to seek to threaten our national security. Sometimes people in this country, unaffiliated with terrorist organizations and acting underneath the radar, perform acts like what occured in Oklahoma.
To think that it is unnecessary to be prepared to effectively respond to catastrophe, man-made or natural, because we can't identify now where such a threat might be produced from is severely negligent.
Quote:
This is fear mongering of the worst kind.
Balderdash. Fear mongering is selling to the American people Islamic fascism as a justification for the removal of our civil liberties, the crippling of our economy from occupying the Middle East, and threatening our national security by giving incentive for us to be attacked.
An objective commentary on a state of being unprepared for a potentiality is not fear-mongering, especially as such catastrophes have occured in the past and will occur again.
Quote:
Is Canada invading Detroit? Is Mexico staging a take-over of El Paso?
Not to my knowledge, in either case, but I don't think anyone is identifying any risk from either possibility.
Quote:
Who exactly do we need 500,000 troops here to defend AGAINST? How are national guard units going to prevent a terrorist attack? Since you cannot actually be advocating that a conventional attack is possible?
The assessment I quoted wasn't regarding a conventional attack, so I'm not certain I understand why you are suggesting that I am presenting the viewpoint that such is possible.
Ron Paul has spoken out agansit how our pre-emptive offense is threatening our national security and whittling away our national defense. Here is an official assessment regarding the latter.
What would having 500,000 troops home in the United States defend agansit? Well, for one thing, it would defend our troops from being exposed to warfare, which weakens our troops strategically, and destroys them physically and psychologically. Having our troops home would secure our borders, which would go great distances towards alleviating the problem of illegal immigration, as well as working agansit the potentiality that some kind of weapon was introduced into our country. It would defend agansit provoking others to attack us here at home by creating inevitable hostility that results from occupying their land. It would defend agansit economic turmoil by ensuring we were not engaging in enormous federal spending overseas....
Need I go on?
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Thin White Duke
Stranger


Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 51,530
Loc:
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When is the election?
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WhiskeyClone
Not here


Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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November
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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Gastronomicus
3-0-G



Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 9,727
Last seen: 8 hours, 16 minutes
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#7965070 - 02/01/08 02:01 PM (16 years, 12 hours ago) |
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It can't come soon enough so we can stop hearing about Ron Paul and how he, and only he can save the world. You'd think he'd have the dignity to drop out now. Millions of dollars and 0 wins later he's no closer to being president then I am
-------------------- Make my Funk the P Funk, I wants to get Funked up
LAGM2024
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Thin White Duke
Stranger


Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 51,530
Loc:
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#7965087 - 02/01/08 02:06 PM (16 years, 12 hours ago) |
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Quote:
WhiskeyClone said: November
Really? I thought it was next week for some reason.
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WhiskeyClone
Not here


Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Super Tuesday is next week.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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idiotek


Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 40,728
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Wow, you're really not helping Ron Paul's case by being such a smug, arrogant ass toward those who don't see things the way you do. Do you really feel that it's necessary to respond to people who disagree with you by insulting or patronizing them?
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AJ4U
Cloud N9ne



Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 5,609
Loc: Dirty Jersey
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: idiotek]
#7965396 - 02/01/08 03:43 PM (16 years, 10 hours ago) |
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fireworks god diaf
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Thin White Duke
Stranger


Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 51,530
Loc:
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#7965444 - 02/01/08 03:57 PM (16 years, 10 hours ago) |
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Quote:
WhiskeyClone said: Super Tuesday is next week.
And what is Super Tuesday?
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WhiskeyClone
Not here


Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Quote:
Phumfeinz said:
Quote:
WhiskeyClone said: Super Tuesday is next week.
And what is Super Tuesday?
I believe you get 10 percent off your groceries.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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Thin White Duke
Stranger


Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 51,530
Loc:
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#7965501 - 02/01/08 04:06 PM (16 years, 10 hours ago) |
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Sounds cool. Is it a regular thing?
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WhiskeyClone
Not here


Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Yes.
In case you care enough to read a paragraph or two:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Tuesday
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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Thin White Duke
Stranger


Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 51,530
Loc:
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#7965547 - 02/01/08 04:14 PM (16 years, 10 hours ago) |
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Once every four years then. I wouldn't class that as regular
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AndhesEcuador
Primitive and Proud


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 149
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Go RON PAUL!!!
Sign up to be a precinct leader and tell all your friends about him.
-------------------- NO EGO WBS TEK
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Cowgold
Bullshit


Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 12,486
Loc: .
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: idiotek]
#7966195 - 02/01/08 06:59 PM (16 years, 7 hours ago) |
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Politics turn people gay. True story.
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xdaveman
Stranger

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 84
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i dont see why there are so many Ron Paul haters. Dont vote for him, watch the carbon tax come, watch the nafta highway rip through america(which is going to be owned by spain and have tolls spain makes money off of), watch the depression come. check every other candidates veiws on world government they are all for it, except him.i guess it depends on each person on whats more importantto them. lets see, kill a fetus on demand or have a government worth a fuck? this is such a hard one.
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ravin0fff
Stranger

Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 228
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Middleman]
#7966331 - 02/01/08 07:46 PM (16 years, 6 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Middleman said: Freedom = biodiesel fuel, solar power, homegrown veggies, home brewed beer, etc.
Want to change the world? Do what it takes to get free from dependence on large corporations.
The game is rigged, Hillary has already been chosen, WE HAVE NO CHOICE other than what systems we support with our $!
agreed
we're not in the 20th century anymore, no one has any excuse to still believe in this "elections" bullshit
don't play their game, DON'T VOTE
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Zinglons Acolyte
Wizard Ninja



Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 2,877
Loc: Andromeda Galaxy
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Mankey]
#7966375 - 02/01/08 07:59 PM (16 years, 6 hours ago) |
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Quote:
brainsOplenty said:
Quote:
spud said: Fuck Ron Paul.
i agree! if you look at what the previously republican controlled government has done to this country in the last 8 years. hell it just makes me sick.
ron paul is the way republicans are SUPPOSED to be minimalist government, low government spending, and NOT BEING A FASCIST like most modern day republican fuctards
-------------------- And they wandered off.. nine ways till bedfast. ----- "And lets pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space 'cause theres bugger-all down here on earth!" -Monty Python's "The Universe Song" from The Meaning of Life "In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely considered as a bad move." -Douglas Adams "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" "If the words 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on." -Terence McKenna
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: idiotek]
#7966870 - 02/01/08 09:52 PM (16 years, 4 hours ago) |
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Quote:
1d10t3k said: Wow, you're really not helping Ron Paul's case by being such a smug, arrogant ass toward those who don't see things the way you do. Do you really feel that it's necessary to respond to people who disagree with you by insulting or patronizing them?
No, I only feel the need to respond to people who disagree with me in such a manner when they themselves are approaching neutral discussion as they did and have persisted in doing in the past. It has absolutely nothing to do with simply disagreeing with me. I see no reason to be so facetious about this while pretending to be so serious and holier than thou. 
I mean, let's not blow using a and responding harshly to someone who referred to being an active patriot as throwing money into a black hole out of proportion, as some melodramatic, serious stuff.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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jjr
Green Ranger

Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 62
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
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i'm scared of republicans...
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: jjr]
#7966907 - 02/01/08 10:01 PM (16 years, 4 hours ago) |
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fear not.
--------------------
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Techno_Raver

Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 328
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We should have a Libertarian run for president, and win it. I'm sick of the Democratic and Republican parties dominating. This election the Libertarian party isn't even in the race, because they didn't get the 70,000 signatures required to run. I think the current government played a role in that, to make sure the people don't have a voice, and don't know the truth. And since Ron Paul is a republican, I agree with spud- "Fuck Ron Paul".
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WhiskeyClone
Not here


Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: ravin0fff]
#7966966 - 02/01/08 10:24 PM (16 years, 4 hours ago) |
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Quote:
ravin0fff said:
don't play their game, DON'T VOTE
No matter what choices you make in your personal life, your freedom to make those choices is going to be subject to the policies of the current administration. These policies affect the consequences of your actions, everyday. You are in the game, like it or not. Don't waste your one chance to determine what those policies will be just because you're feeling resentful.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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Zinglons Acolyte
Wizard Ninja



Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 2,877
Loc: Andromeda Galaxy
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#7966979 - 02/01/08 10:28 PM (16 years, 4 hours ago) |
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ron paul is the closest thing to libertarian that stands a ghost of a chance
-------------------- And they wandered off.. nine ways till bedfast. ----- "And lets pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space 'cause theres bugger-all down here on earth!" -Monty Python's "The Universe Song" from The Meaning of Life "In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely considered as a bad move." -Douglas Adams "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" "If the words 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on." -Terence McKenna
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#7967104 - 02/01/08 11:06 PM (16 years, 3 hours ago) |
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Quote:
WhiskeyClone said:
Quote:
ravin0fff said:
don't play their game, DON'T VOTE
No matter what choices you make in your personal life, your freedom to make those choices is going to be subject to the policies of the current administration. These policies affect the consequences of your actions, everyday. You are in the game, like it or not. Don't waste your one chance to determine what those policies will be just because you're feeling resentful.
If the last election didn't prove to you that 'the game' is rigged, you weren't paying close enough attention.
When Clinton is 'elected' maybe someone will remember what I'm saying - our choice is an ILLUSION.
I'm not resentful or apathetic, I just suggest taking different avenues toward making our voice heard as well as heeded.
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WhiskeyClone
Not here


Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Middleman]
#7967122 - 02/01/08 11:10 PM (16 years, 3 hours ago) |
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Quote:
If the last election didn't prove to you that 'the game' is rigged, you weren't paying close enough attention.
No, the last election did not prove to me that it was rigged.
Can I see this proof please?
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#7967173 - 02/01/08 11:23 PM (16 years, 3 hours ago) |
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Actually the past two elections were obviously rigged.
Just the names of the companies who make the voting machines was proof enough for me.
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/2004votefraud.html
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/usa_vote_facts.html
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing, those who count the votes decide everything." - Joseph Stalin
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Middleman]
#7967182 - 02/01/08 11:25 PM (16 years, 3 hours ago) |
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I didn't use a machine last election.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Over 90% of voters did.
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OneMoreRobot3021



Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 61,024
Loc: the sky
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: fireworks_god]
#7967526 - 02/02/08 02:08 AM (16 years, 32 minutes ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
1d10t3k said: Wow, you're really not helping Ron Paul's case by being such a smug, arrogant ass toward those who don't see things the way you do. Do you really feel that it's necessary to respond to people who disagree with you by insulting or patronizing them?
No, I only feel the need to respond to people who disagree with me in such a manner when they themselves are approaching neutral discussion as they did and have persisted in doing in the past. It has absolutely nothing to do with simply disagreeing with me. I see no reason to be so facetious about this while pretending to be so serious and holier than thou. 
I mean, let's not blow using a and responding harshly to someone who referred to being an active patriot as throwing money into a black hole out of proportion, as some melodramatic, serious stuff.
Neutral discussion...right..
-------------------- Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake. -Erik Davis
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Oh my god you used a emoticon! 
I'm so not going to debate the ideas presented by you now.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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idiotek


Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 40,728
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: Oh my god you used a emoticon! 
I'm so not going to debate the ideas presented by you now.
You're the last person I'd want to debate anything with simply because you're incapable of considering anyone else's position about something if it doesn't immediately agree with yours. You're either a suckup to the ones who agree with you or a complete condescending, snarky little shit to the ones who disagree. You're the Shroomery/Ron Paul advocating equivalent to Bill O'Reilly.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: idiotek]
#7967900 - 02/02/08 08:46 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Thanks for the analysis of my personal nature; you're completely wrong, but at least you're trying.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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WhiskeyClone
Not here


Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Middleman]
#7967916 - 02/02/08 08:58 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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There is corruption no doubt, but that is no reason not to vote.
I just don't believe the corruption could be as thorough as those websites claim. If it was that blatantly obvious, why was a bigger deal not made of it? Surely voters on in both parties would not accept a democratic system whose failures are so apparent. With the sheer volume of anti-Bush sentiment, why are his detractors arguing about public policy rather than the voting system? If it were my country I would make a huge deal about it. So would everybody I know. I assumed Americans were not all that different from us. Did I give them too much credit?
I'm not willing to spend my saturday morning trying to debunk them, but suffice it to say that even if everything on those pages is true, the number of people who were able to rationalize staying home on election day would have constituted enough votes to overcome even that level of fraud.
I think the lifestyle choices you were describing are a more effective way of transforming the country, but voting in the general election -- even if it is as you describe -- is hardly an inconsequential act.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#7967983 - 02/02/08 09:41 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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There definitely is corruption, and dirty tricks have been quite apparent in this election as well, but it certainly isn't as though the voting system is entirely rigged. It is simply a question of individual states and their methods of collecting votes. The simple fact is, people are voting for Hillary Clinton and John McCain. The real tragedy here is not vote fraud, but the role the corporate media plays in affecting how people vote, which is no one's fault but the people themselves.
What is refreshing to see is American people informing themselves and realizing the nature of the reality around them. The real question isn't regarding whether it is too late to elect Ron Paul, but the real question is whether it is too late to save this country from a collapse.
I think this country needs some serious election reform. I think the media should be barred from reporting anything about anything until the people have decided who their President is.
It'd also be nice to see the removal of the party system. Can anyone provide an understanding as to how the party system has ever benefited this country?
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#7967985 - 02/02/08 09:42 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Did you read the whole Rolling Stone article? Everything in it is true.
It is BEYOND BELIEF what the Bush administration has gotten away with.
I'm still voting on principle, but I swear the whole thing is a sham.
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idiotek


Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 40,728
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: Thanks for the analysis of my personal nature; you're completely wrong, but at least you're trying.
Because you said I am wrong, I must be. Hence, your entire method of "debate" - along with a shallow arsenal of cheeky smileys and interchangeable condescensions.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Middleman]
#7968010 - 02/02/08 09:50 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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The federal government itself is the sham. They've superceded your individual rights and the rights of the state by implementing the federal income tax. Everyone gets upset at Congress for pork-barrel spending, but they are simply sent in by their state to try to get some of their money back. A trillion dollars from the American people so they can ruin our economy, remove our wealth, threaten our security, and take away our rights as human beings?
The sad thing is that this is why this country was founded upon in the first place, and here it is again. The tragic thing is that there is no New World to escape to this time. The political framework of this country is the most suitable for the American people to choose their own government, yet most are so conditioned to the way things are that they never question it, and, if they do, they never act. Its unfortunate that so many people are going to suffer in this country when the inevitable rears itself upon America, but at least this country won't be able to impose its dominant will on the rest of the world.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Stein
Stranger


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 35,129
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Is Ron Paul gonna run as an independent?
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idiotek


Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 40,728
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Stein]
#7968036 - 02/02/08 10:00 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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If he's smart, he'll ride the GOP bandwagon long enough to reap whatever exposure it will get for him until he loses the nomination - which is inevitable and practically undeniable if you look at his poll numbers - and then run as an independent in hopes that the people who were jaded by the results of his unsuccessful GOP candidacy will show up in high enough numbers to compete with the two major parties.
Essentially, in doing so, what he will do is ruin any chance that we will see anyone other than a hardcore neocon in office in the next election. The key issue in this election is the war in Iraq and our foreign policy. Thus, he will divide the voters who are pro-withdrawal between the democrats and his libertarian supporters.. lending strength in the numbers of the other 50% of voters who will inevitably buy into the GOP/neoconservative Imperialistic horse shit about maintaining a presence/not giving up/letting the bad guys win/we can win if we stick it out and drop a vote for whoever the GOP nominee will be - probably McCain.
The only other issue that may make a difference is the impending doom of a recession.. that's sort of a wild card at this point though.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: idiotek]
#7968060 - 02/02/08 10:07 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
1d10t3k said: Because you said I am wrong, I must be. Hence, your entire method of "debate" - along with a shallow arsenal of cheeky smileys and interchangeable condescensions.
Oh, you must have forgot that it is impossible to have a substansive debate regarding the personal nature of others in an Internet forum. You have no way of proposing a substantiated idea regarding my personal nature; thus, no debate can exist.
The statement that I am incapable of considering another perspective if it doesn't immediately agree with my own cannot be demonstrated to be true, because that which I consider is not evident in how I choose to respond. Consideration is an internal process that does not exist within external action.
Your statement regarding my personal nature is just as validated as my assertion that your assessment of my personal nature is incorrect, which is to say that neither of them have any basis. For you to conclude that my response to your assessment is representative of my method of debate is irrelevant, as it is not true debate that is being engaged in.
I cannot demonstrate that I do consider perspectives that do not automatically agree with my own perspectives, but, alas, neither can you, and as you are the individual making the claim, the burden of proof lies with you. There may be any number of motivations for myself to exhibit certain behavior, and you certainly don't seem to be any sort of psychologist. 
Of course, it is also incorrect for you to summarize my "entire" method of debate as consisting of what you listed, since, clearly, I am also capable of proposing ideas relevant to the topic at hand. As those who have made effort to whine about my usage of emoticons and attitude in regards to themselves have not addressed any ideas proposed to counter their own perspectives on the topic at hand, it might be safe to conclude that this particular aspect of my debate technique is hard to stand up to.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Stein]
#7968075 - 02/02/08 10:10 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stein said: Is Ron Paul gonna run as an independent?
If you two go vote for him on Tuesday, he won't need to. I'm not sure if your state is an open primary or if you can register right before you vote, I've been meaning to check.... if you can't vote for him, its my fault.
Ron Paul won't run as an Independent.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
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Or everyone is sick of your snarky bullshit.
I know the former option would be better for your massive ego, but the latter is closer to the truth.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: idiotek]
#7968096 - 02/02/08 10:19 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
1d10t3k said: If he's smart, he'll ride the GOP bandwagon long enough to reap whatever exposure it will get for him until he loses the nomination - which is inevitable and practically undeniable if you look at his poll numbers - and then run as an independent in hopes that the people who were jaded by the results of his unsuccessful GOP candidacy will show up in high enough numbers to compete with the two major parties.
It isn't a question of his intelligence, as he is documented to be a brilliant campaigner. He crippled the entire GOP machines efforts in '96, from President Bush to Governor Bush, at the height of their power, after they tried to oust him from Congress for not towing the party line. The real question is the means with which he has to campaign, as well as the odds that he is up agansit. He has personally stated that it would take $100 million for him to be able to approach an independent run, so as long as one of those speculatated billionaires doesn't actually manifest, there will be no Independent run.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: Or everyone is sick of your snarky bullshit.
I know the former option would be better for your massive ego, but the latter is closer to the truth.
You never replied to my ideas regarding my coming way out of left field on that assessment... They must have been too snarky.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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idiotek


Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 40,728
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
1d10t3k said: Because you said I am wrong, I must be. Hence, your entire method of "debate" - along with a shallow arsenal of cheeky smileys and interchangeable condescensions.
Oh, you must have forgot that it is impossible to have a substansive debate regarding the personal nature of others in an Internet forum. You have no way of proposing a substantiated idea regarding my personal nature; thus, no debate can exist.
The statement that I am incapable of considering another perspective if it doesn't immediately agree with my own cannot be demonstrated to be true, because that which I consider is not evident in how I choose to respond. Consideration is an internal process that does not exist within external action.
Your statement regarding my personal nature is just as validated as my assertion that your assessment of my personal nature is incorrect, which is to say that neither of them have any basis. For you to conclude that my response to your assessment is representative of my method of debate is irrelevant, as it is not true debate that is being engaged in.
I cannot demonstrate that I do consider perspectives that do not automatically agree with my own perspectives, but, alas, neither can you, and as you are the individual making the claim, the burden of proof lies with you. There may be any number of motivations for myself to exhibit certain behavior, and you certainly don't seem to be any sort of psychologist. 
Of course, it is also incorrect for you to summarize my "entire" method of debate as consisting of what you listed, since, clearly, I am also capable of proposing ideas relevant to the topic at hand. As those who have made effort to whine about my usage of emoticons and attitude in regards to themselves have not addressed any ideas proposed to counter their own perspectives on the topic at hand, it might be safe to conclude that this particular aspect of my debate technique is hard to stand up to.
That was far wordier than was necessary and you know it - just like you know when you're being condescending, patronizing, and insulting. You're just too wrapped up in that security blanket ego of yours to see the forest for the trees. You'd rather belittle anyone who doesn't join your Ron Paul circle jerk than drop the soap box preaching tactics and look at the situation for what it is.
If Ron Paul was a brilliant political strategist he'd say what he knows people want to hear in order to get their votes and then he would do what he knows is the best course of action for the nation - essentially, he'd be a true politician and lie through his teeth.
If he isn't going to run as an independent then he does not stand a chance at coming close to the Presidency. His views, regardless of how they may reflect the Republicans of old, are not shared by the mainstream neoconservatives of today that form the majority of the GOP. This is reflected in the numbers, and will surely be the conclusion of Super Tuesday. He will not get the Republican nomination - he is simply too radical for the status quo Republican ideals.
This is why it is a futile effort for average-income American supporters of Ron Paul to pour money into his campaign - it's obvious that he can't win. It doesn't matter what the principles are of why you should vote for him, or what he stands for. That isn't the point and hasn't been the point of mainstream American politics for a LONG time. The entire system is fundamentally flawed and until something is done to curtail the influence of media outlets and corporate lobbyists we won't see the sort of change that Ron Paul stands for. It's good that he's getting a lot of these ideas out there and in the minds of people who are willing to consider them.. but from the looks of things he simply doesn't have the charisma or the support from high profile celebrities/news organizations/donors that the other candidates have.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: idiotek]
#7968254 - 02/02/08 11:22 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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1d10t3k said: That was far wordier than was necessary and you know it
No, that's just how I have been conditioned to discuss after years of active debate in P&S, but you may feel free to read into everything what you wish and assign meaning as you intend to do so.
Quote:
- just like you know when you're being condescending, patronizing, and insulting.
What's your point? Do you know when you are continuing to harp on about trivial matters that are not the topic for discussion? When someone creates a new thread that is promoting a cause, including a line of reasoning for why the cause transcends his chances for receiving the Republican nomination, and someone responds simply with "there is no reason to throw money into a blackhole", I'm not concerned if my response has occasional condescending or insulting tones to it.
Of course, there is always a few people who embrace the opportunity to emerge from the woodwork and continue on with some stupid "this is who you are" campaign.
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You're just too wrapped up in that security blanket ego of yours to see the forest for the trees. You'd rather belittle anyone who doesn't join your Ron Paul circle jerk than drop the soap box preaching tactics and look at the situation for what it is.
Who have I belittled but three individuals with whom I share a history of sparring?
Of course, I'd be happy for you to tell me your take on "the situation for what it is". What are you talking about... my nature, this thread, RP?
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If Ron Paul was a brilliant political strategist he'd say what he knows people want to hear in order to get their votes and then he would do what he knows is the best course of action for the nation - essentially, he'd be a true politician and lie through his teeth.
Ron Paul is a brilliant political strategist - the fact that he has accomplished this much without sacrificing his integrity is a testament to the movement that is occuring in this country, which is what this thread was about in the first place (I'm glad to see you've decided to discuss a topic of substance in this thread).
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If he isn't going to run as an independent then he does not stand a chance at coming close to the Presidency.
"Close" is relative; he certainly has come pretty damned close to the Presidency considering that he is one of six contenders still in the race. As a reluctant candidate who is the most atypical politican in the national spotlight, the fact that he has come this close is incredible. Once again, this isn't about his being elected as President.
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His views, regardless of how they may reflect the Republicans of old, are not shared by the mainstream neoconservatives of today that form the majority of the GOP. This is reflected in the numbers, and will surely be the conclusion of Super Tuesday. He will not get the Republican nomination - he is simply too radical for the status quo Republican ideals.
This is all plainly evident and recognized by myself personally prior to this post of yours. If this statement of yours is regarding your previous one, then I'm not sure how you've concluded that I'm not seeing it for what it is. 
Quote:
This is why it is a futile effort for average-income American supporters of Ron Paul to pour money into his campaign - it's obvious that he can't win.
Futile to get him elected? No one has proposed in this thread that donating to his presidental campaign was in attempt to get him elected, although hopefully it will happen anyways. Maybe if you had spent more time reading the vast majority of what I said, instead of the occasional remark and emoticon, you would have conserved your energy and invested it in better activities than enlightening me.
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It doesn't matter what the principles are of why you should vote for him, or what he stands for. That isn't the point and hasn't been the point of mainstream American politics for a LONG time. The entire system is fundamentally flawed and until something is done to curtail the influence of media outlets and corporate lobbyists we won't see the sort of change that Ron Paul stands for.
This is about the movement itself, which has a rippling effect on these flaws. I'm not going to take the time right now to reference all of the examples in which Ron Paul's campaign has positively influenced change in regards to these flaws already, not to mention how it has empowered many to take action themselves. The fact that Ron Paul's campaign exists today is the greatest indicator that the influence of corporate media outlets is waning. Ron Paul's continued presence in the campaign is as a point of awareness that brings understanding and change. The longer he campaigns, especially as fewer and fewer other candidates campaign, the more opportunities those who are influenced more by the mainstream media have a chance to wake up. Ron Paul is a seed.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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fireworks_god said: Futile to get him elected? No one has proposed in this thread that donating to his presidental campaign was in attempt to get him elected, although hopefully it will happen anyways.
Most people who donate to a political campaign are doing it to get someone elected so they can affect actual change, rather than "Pie-in-the-sky" idealistic flights of fancy.
I know the money I donate to B-Rock is certainly for the purpose of getting him elected. If I wanted to donate money to buy someone a blimp, I'd give my money to Goodyear.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Just want to highlight my agreement that this is indeed not just about the presidency.
As small or large as one might think the Ron Paul movement is, it is taking the form of something that hasn't happened in this country since perhaps the pro-peace movement during the war on Vietnam. People are mobilizing a political effort that is not inspired by the cultural mainstream, but that comes from the niches of every-day life itself and is popularizing itself through the vast reaches of the internet. This does leave me to wonder sometimes which medium is the true peoples' voice, the television, or the keyboard..
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Donating to Ron Paul is affecting actual change, even if he doesn't get elected President. The nature of reality isn't limited to such an incredibly narrow viewpoint as that. Do you understand how democracy works? Also, no money donated to Ron Paul's campaign went to a blimp.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
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Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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I'm just saying that to try and say that people don't donate to political campaign to get someone elected is silly.
In the exact terms that you put it "in this thread nobody has...." it is true, but I think even you would admit that this is the motivation of most people.
There are much more direct ways to affect change than by throwing money at a losing candidate that nobody cares about.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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John Nada
Toujours Frais

Registered: 03/03/03
Posts: 97,746
Loc: Hotwings; race car
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I'm pretty sure Ron Paul is a vehement racist. Stormfront.org fuckin loves that guy
All the drug culture internet people seem to love him as well though. Kinda scary actually.
Of course, I guess most of the online drug culture people are vehement racists as well though. Even acid dropping hippies
God I hate them/you people, fuckin faggots.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: John Nada]
#7968405 - 02/02/08 12:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
paradis said: I'm pretty sure Ron Paul is a vehement racist. Stormfront.org fuckin loves that guy
So, essentially, you are blatantly uninformed?
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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No, many rational people believe the same thing.
*YOU* may not believe the evidence, but it is there.
People who are much more deeply in touch with the Nazi-Right than I surmise you are think he is.
And all he has done to deny it is say "That wasn't my fault."
Way to dismiss another argument by calling someone ignorant.
I'm sure you're winning converts to your cause left and right...
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: I'm just saying that to try and say that people don't donate to political campaign to get someone elected is silly.
In the exact terms that you put it "in this thread nobody has...." it is true, but I think even you would admit that this is the motivation of most people.
I never said this either.
Is there an interest in seeing the candidate people donate to elected? Certainly, but Ron Paul supporters continue to donate to Ron Paul even though most of the active supporters are well-aware of the nature of the situation and the odds that are being faced. Ron Paul himself addressed the grass-roots clearly stating that, while he can't rule anything out, as he couldn't have imagined this six months ago, this isn't about winning the nomination, but this is about the message, and getting it heard. Most supporters of Ron Paul aren't simply donating and campaigning for him because he's a great, interesting candidate, but because they are deeply concerned about the direction this country is heading in and they see him as the only man in a position to effect the greatest short-term change regarding this.
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There are much more direct ways to affect change than by throwing money at a losing candidate that nobody cares about.
This is far too dismissive of a statement to have any real bearing. I'm looking forward to seeing the MTV/Myspace debate tonight, in which Ron Paul will be up there with Clinton, Obama, and Huckabee (Romney and McCain haven't confirmed yet). The field certainly has narrowed, hasn't it? Apparently Paul is cared about enough to be included.
Let me ask you, what is the difference between Kucinich and Paul? Money wisely invested in a successful candidate that people clearly have an interest in actively participating in a narrow field of candidates. The opportunity to continue to deliver the message like this pays off, the change is real and signfigant, even if some are willing to be oblivious to it.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: No, many rational people believe the same thing.
*YOU* may not believe the evidence, but it is there.
No they don't, and there is no evidence, unless you care to cite it.
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People who are much more deeply in touch with the Nazi-Right than I surmise you are think he is.
Unsubstantiated nonsense; put up or shut up. Certain unknown people reaching certain conclusions isn't very substansive.
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And all he has done to deny it is say "That wasn't my fault."
Do you enjoy perpetuating complete bullshit? Ron Paul has taken personal responsibility for the fact that someone writing a newsletter in his name while he was completely absorbed in his medical practice in every single campaign he has ran. Unless you care to cite specific statements, the statements themselves weren't even that horrible.
Fact is, there is nothing that points towards Ron Paul as being a racist, but since you are supporting the claim, put the fuck up.
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Way to dismiss another argument by calling someone ignorant.
I asked if he was blatantly misinformed. Assuming that Ron Paul is racist because of a sliver of a minority of his supporters are is nonsense.
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I'm sure you're winning converts to your cause left and right...
Someone who baselessly pronounces that Ron Paul is a racist isn't convertable, not even a medical operation could accomplish that. I'm not here to win you over; I'm here to debate.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
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Quote:
I never said this either.
Yes, you did.
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Futile to get him elected? No one has proposed in this thread that donating to his presidental campaign was in attempt to get him elected, although hopefully it will happen anyways
But I don't want to argue semantics. I hear what you're saying about donating because you think he's a great guy, but how do you think he is going to affect the "greatest short-term change"?
What is the mechanism for this? By *talking* about it? You can talk about a problem until you are blue in the face, but that never solved anything. Occasionally, its necessary to actually *DO* things to bring about change.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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John Nada
Toujours Frais

Registered: 03/03/03
Posts: 97,746
Loc: Hotwings; race car
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: So, essentially, you are blatantly uninformed?
Nah. Essentially, you seem to be a racist yourself though, so I'm betting that you wouldn't even mind him being a racist, regardless.
On the internet drug sites, it's cool to be a racist, but if you say something about gays people get more upset by that. Further evidence that most racists are cock sucking faggots
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
No they don't, and there is no evidence, unless you care to cite it.
Its been posted and discussed here ad nauseum. The only thing you need to do is read the things that were said, and in who's personal newsletter they were said.
I know you believe that Ron Paul had nothing to do with. I think this is obvious nonsense.
I'm not trying to convince you of anything, you are a fanatic.
I'm just putting it out there so others can come to their own conclusions.
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fireworks_god said: Unless you care to cite specific statements, the statements themselves weren't even that horrible.
Yeah, okay Buddy...
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Ron Paul said:
"King [MLK Jr], the FBI files show, was not only a world class adulterer, he also seduced underage girls and boys. And we are suppose to honor this "Christian minister" and lying socialist satyr with a holiday that puts him on par with George Washington?"
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Ron Paul said:
"I miss the closet. Homosexuals, not to speak of the rest of society, were far better off when social pressure forced them to hide their activities."
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Ron Paul said:
"I've been told not to talk, but these stooges don't scare me. Threats or no threats, I've laid bare the coming race war in our big cities. The federal-homosexual cover-up on AIDS (my training as a physician helps me see through this one.) The Bohemian Grove--perverted, pagan playground of the powerful.
Does that sound like it was written by a random guy?
"My training as a physician?"
Get your head out of the sand, either the guy is a racist and a homophobe now or he was in the past...
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Stein
Stranger


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 35,129
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Quote:
Ron Paul said:
"King [MLK Jr], the FBI files show, was not only a world class adulterer, he also seduced underage girls and boys. And we are suppose to honor this "Christian minister" and lying socialist satyr with a holiday that puts him on par with George Washington?"
Quote:
Ron Paul said:
"I miss the closet. Homosexuals, not to speak of the rest of society, were far better off when social pressure forced them to hide their activities."
Quote:
Ron Paul said:
"I've been told not to talk, but these stooges don't scare me. Threats or no threats, I've laid bare the coming race war in our big cities. The federal-homosexual cover-up on AIDS (my training as a physician helps me see through this one.) The Bohemian Grove--perverted, pagan playground of the powerful.
Does his website take Mastercard or Visa?
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Neither, both are Communist plots to send the entire countries wealth to China.
His campaign only accepts donations in "Ron-Dollars" which you can find...Well...Fuck, good luck.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
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Due to the nature of Paul fans who I have met with, I no longer believe I will be voting for him. I am more knowledgeable on the topic of politics than 90% of them, but as soon as I disagree with one of them, I am ignorant.
I'll probably just vote Libertarian again.
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Redstorm]
#7969821 - 02/02/08 06:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
I am more knowledgeable on the topic of politics than 90% of them, but as soon as I disagree with one of them, I am ignorant.
No, no, no.... not ignorant, brainwashed. Get the terminology right, dammit!
Phred
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undergrounder
fluffy bunny



Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 1,394
Loc: Sydney
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Phred]
#7972136 - 02/03/08 09:23 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Didn't someone say this thread was only going to be sticked for 24 hours?
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RIP Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Ythan is a Paulnut too, I imagine it'll stay up awhile...
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: I'm just saying that to try and say that people don't donate to political campaign to get someone elected is silly.
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fireworks_god said: I never said this either. 
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Madtowntripper said: Yes, you did.
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fireworks_god said: Futile to get him elected? No one has proposed in this thread that donating to his presidental campaign was in attempt to get him elected, although hopefully it will happen anyways.
But I don't want to argue semantics.
No, I didn't. There is a clear difference between the statement "people don't donate to a presidental campaign to get a candidate elected" and "no one has proposed in this thread that donating to his campaign was in attempt to get elected". Did I say in the original post that I was advocating donating to the presidental campaign in order to get him elected? No. Did I say that some people don't donate to a presidental campaign to get a candidate elected? No.
I'm sure you don't want to argue semantics, because then you would have to admit that the concept I have proposed is clearly distinct from the moron statement you wish I had said. I'm sure its easier to debate some moron arguement that was never presented than what I have actually proposed, so I guess I don't blame you for being lazy.
The fact is that most Ron Paul supporters continue to participate because they are dedicated to the movement and the proliferation of understanding that Ron Paul stands for. The fact is that I clearly stated in this thread that I was advocating those who understand this movement and are sympathetic to the cause donate in order to futher it.
Then, to top it off, you've clearly acted under the impression that I created this thread to win over people like you and individuals that declare Ron Paul is a vehement racist, as is most people who use drugs, based upon comments akin to "Oh look you're doing such a fine job of winning people to your cause". Sometimes it might be better to not try to make someone else look like a fool when you don't understand what is being discussed.
Quote:
I hear what you're saying about donating because you think he's a great guy, but how do you think he is going to affect the "greatest short-term change"?
What is the mechanism for this? By *talking* about it? You can talk about a problem until you are blue in the face, but that never solved anything. Occasionally, its necessary to actually *DO* things to bring about change.
Running for president is doing something. Participating in debates is doing something. Doing interviews in the media in which your ideas are presented and exchanged is doing something. Campaigning to bring attention of the American people to your ideas is doing something. Motivating people to become active in furthering the cause is doing something.
The notion that an individual that is running for President can only affect change by actually getting elected is demonstrated to be false, but I'm sure you will make up something else I never stated or implied to continue trying to portray me in a negative manner. I was reading what I assume to be the most recent issue of U.S. News And World Report, in which they covered great moments in campaign history. Please review:
Quote:
Presidential campaigns do more than just send a chief executive to the White House. They also illuminate social trends and define issues, explain where America has come from and where it is headed, and generate more than their share of triumph and tragedy—and even a fair bit of comedy in between.
Clear evidence that not everyone thinks in such simplified terms, and that reality certainly doesn't exist within these terms. The idea that I would propose that supporters donate to further the movement, and not with the notion that doing so will actually get Ron Paul elected, or the notion that some donate with an intent of furthering the movement, is not to be dismissed.
Some people understand that reality is a much more dynamic process than "Me Presidental Candidate. Me run for President. Me Lose, Me No Bring Change".
I didn't state that he is going to affect the greatest, short-term change, I clearly stated that most Ron Paul supporters see Ron Paul as being in a position to affect the greatest, short-term change regarding the ideas and issues that he stands for.
This isn't semantics, this is reading-comprehension. God forbid someone who tells another they need some could ever actually be right.
I'll pretend you asked a question relevant to what I actually said. Most Ron Paul supporters see him in this position because he is the only prominent figure in the public spotlight (yes, he is a prominent figure in the public spotlight, get over it) that is calling attention to these issues, they recognize how the action he has taken has brought forth change in themselves, and they realize the benefits of giving him what he needs to continue the campaign, in the hopes that his doing so will bring others to become aware of what he is speaking of and possibly begin creating change themselves.
I know it must be unsettling to be told that you need to learn to effectively read and comprehend what someone else says, and I'm sure it is much easier to lambast someone for saying so instead of coming to terms with the fact that you need to in order to successfully participate in the discussion of the ideas presented.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Yes, another thread where you tell me I cannot read.
Please, stop.
I have two college degrees as quite a few people here can attest. I'm not fucking stupid.
Stop acting like I am.
I'm not even responding to that.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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OneMoreRobot3021



Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 61,024
Loc: the sky
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I love empanadas.
-------------------- Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake. -Erik Davis
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WhiskeyClone
Not here


Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Quote:
OneLessForeskin said: I love empanadas.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Madtowntripper said: Its been posted and discussed here ad nauseum.
In honest, effective debate, ideas are either posted for consideration in the discussion itself, or sources are cited so that they may be reviewed and discussed. Otherwise, the claims are unsupported and not to be considered.
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The only thing you need to do is read the things that were said, and in who's personal newsletter they were said.
Ahh, if only reality were that simple. Fortunately, there are investigative reporters that actually seek understanding, instead of relying on such simple, illogical conclusions.
Quote:
http://www.reason.com/news/show/124426.html
Ron Paul doesn't seem to know much about his own newsletters. The libertarian-leaning presidential candidate says he was unaware, in the late 1980s and early 1990s, of the bigoted rhetoric about African Americans and gays that was appearing under his name. He told CNN last week that he still has "no idea" who might have written inflammatory comments such as "Order was only restored in L.A. when it came time for the blacks to pick up their welfare checks"—statements he now repudiates. Yet in interviews with reason, a half-dozen longtime libertarian activists—including some still close to Paul—all named the same man as Paul's chief ghostwriter: Ludwig von Mises Institute founder Llewellyn Rockwell, Jr.
Financial records from 1985 and 2001 show that Rockwell, Paul's congressional chief of staff from 1978 to 1982, was a vice president of Ron Paul & Associates, the corporation that published the Ron Paul Political Report and the Ron Paul Survival Report. The company was dissolved in 2001. During the period when the most incendiary items appeared—roughly 1989 to 1994—Rockwell and the prominent libertarian theorist Murray Rothbard championed an open strategy of exploiting racial and class resentment to build a coalition with populist "paleoconservatives," producing a flurry of articles and manifestos whose racially charged talking points and vocabulary mirrored the controversial Paul newsletters recently unearthed by The New Republic. To this day Rockwell remains a friend and advisor to Paul—accompanying him to major media appearances; promoting his candidacy on the LewRockwell.com blog; publishing his books; and peddling an array of the avuncular Texas congressman's recent writings and audio recordings.
Rockwell has denied responsibility for the newsletters' contents to The New Republic's Jamie Kirchick. Rockwell twice declined to discuss the matter with reason, maintaining this week that he had "nothing to say." He has characterized discussion of the newsletters as "hysterical smears aimed at political enemies" of The New Republic. Paul himself called the controversy "old news" and "ancient history" when we reached him last week, and he has not responded to further request for comment.
But a source close to the Paul presidential campaign told reason that Rockwell authored much of the content of the Political Report and Survival Report. "If Rockwell had any honor he'd come out and I say, ‘I wrote this stuff,'" said the source, who asked not to be named because Paul remains friendly with Rockwell and is reluctant to assign responsibility for the letters. "He should have done it 10 years ago."
Rockwell was publicly named as Paul's ghostwriter as far back as a 1988 issue of the now-defunct movement monthly American Libertarian. "This was based on my understanding at the time that Lew would write things that appeared in Ron's various newsletters," former AL editor Mike Holmes told reason. "Neither Ron nor Lew ever told me that, but other people close to them such as Murray Rothbard suggested that Lew was involved, and it was a common belief in libertarian circles."
Individualist-feminist Wendy McElroy, who on her blog characterized the author as an associate of hers for many years, called the ghostwriter's identity "an open secret within the circles in which I run." Though she declined to name names either on her blog or when contacted by reason, she later approvingly cited a post naming Rockwell at the anonymous blog RightWatch.
Timothy Wirkman Virkkala, formerly the managing editor of the libertarian magazine Liberty, told reason that the names behind the Political Report were widely known in his magazine's offices as well, because Liberty's late editor-in-chief, Bill Bradford, had discussed the newsletters with the principals, and then with his staff. "I understood that Burton S. Blumert was the moneybags that got all this started, that he was the publisher," Virkkala said. "Lew Rockwell, editor and chief writer; Jeff Tucker, assistant, probably a writer; Murray Rothbard, cheering from the sidelines, probably ghosting now and then." (Virkkala has offered his own reaction to the controversy at his Web site.) Blumert, Paul's 1988 campaign chairman and a private supporter this year, did not respond to a request for an interview; Rothbard died in 1995. We reached Tucker, now editorial vice president of Rockwell's Mises.org, at his office, and were told: "I just really am not going to make a statement, I'm sorry. I'll take all responsibility for being the editor of Mises.org, OK?"
The early 1990s writings became liabilities for Paul long before last week's New Republic story. Back in 1996, Paul narrowly eked out a congressional victory over Democrat Lefty Morris, who made the newsletters one of his main campaign issues, damning them both for their racial content and for their advocacy of drug legalization. At the time, Paul defended the statements that appeared under his name, claiming that they expressed his "philosophical differences" with Democrats and had been "taken out of context." He finally disavowed them in a 2001 interview with Texas Monthly, explaining that his campaign staff had convinced him at the time that it would be too "confusing" to attribute them to a ghostwriter.
Besides Ron Paul and Lew Rockwell, the officers of Ron Paul & Associates included Paul's wife Carol, Paul's daughter Lori Pyeatt, Paul staffer Penny Langford-Freeman, and longtime campaign manager Mark Elam (who has managed every Paul congressional campaign since 1996 and is currently the Texas coordinator for the presidential run), according to tax records from 1993 and 2001. Langford-Freeman did not respond to interview requests as of press time. Elam, president of M&M Graphics and Advertising, confirmed to reason that his company printed the newsletters, but said that the texts reached him as finished products.
The publishing operation was lucrative. A tax document from June 1993—wrapping up the year in which the Political Report had published the "welfare checks" comment on the L.A. riots—reported an annual income of $940,000 for Ron Paul & Associates, listing four employees in Texas (Paul's family and Rockwell) and seven more employees around the country. If Paul didn't know who was writing his newsletters, he knew they were a crucial source of income and a successful tool for building his fundraising base for a political comeback.
The tenor of Paul's newsletters changed over the years. The ones published between Paul's return to private life after three full terms in congress (1985) and his Libertarian presidential bid (1988) notably lack inflammatory racial or anti-gay comments. The letters published between Paul's first run for president and his return to Congress in 1996 are another story—replete with claims that Martin Luther King "seduced underage girls and boys," that black protesters should gather "at a food stamp bureau or a crack house" rather than the Statue of Liberty, and that AIDS sufferers "enjoy the attention and pity that comes with being sick."
Eric Dondero, Paul's estranged former volunteer and personal aide, worked for Paul on and off between 1987 and 2004 (back when he was named "Eric Rittberg"), and since the Iraq war has become one of the congressman's most vociferous and notorious critics. By Dondero's account, Paul's inner circle learned between his congressional stints that "the wilder they got, the more bombastic they got with it, the more the checks came in. You think the newsletters were bad? The fundraising letters were just insane from that period." Cato Institute President Ed Crane told reason he recalls a conversation from some time in the late 1980s in which Paul claimed that his best source of congressional campaign donations was the mailing list for The Spotlight, the conspiracy-mongering, anti-Semitic tabloid run by the Holocaust denier Willis Carto until it folded in 2001.
The newsletters' obsession with blacks and gays was of a piece with a conscious political strategy adopted at that same time by Lew Rockwell and Murray Rothbard. After breaking with the Libertarian Party following the 1988 presidential election, Rockwell and Rothbard formed a schismatic "paleolibertarian" movement, which rejected what they saw as the social libertinism and leftist tendencies of mainstream libertarians. In 1990, they launched the Rothbard-Rockwell Report, where they crafted a plan they hoped would midwife a broad new "paleo" coalition.
Rockwell explained the thrust of the idea in a 1990 Liberty essay entitled "The Case for Paleo-Libertarianism." To Rockwell, the LP was a "party of the stoned," a halfway house for libertines that had to be "de-loused." To grow, the movement had to embrace older conservative values. "State-enforced segregation," Rockwell wrote, "was wrong, but so is State-enforced integration. State-enforced segregation was not wrong because separateness is wrong, however. Wishing to associate with members of one's own race, nationality, religion, class, sex, or even political party is a natural and normal human impulse."
The most detailed description of the strategy came in an essay Rothbard wrote for the January 1992 Rothbard-Rockwell Report, titled "Right-Wing Populism: A Strategy for the Paleo Movement." Lamenting that mainstream intellectuals and opinion leaders were too invested in the status quo to be brought around to a libertarian view, Rothbard pointed to David Duke and Joseph McCarthy as models for an "Outreach to the Rednecks," which would fashion a broad libertarian/paleoconservative coalition by targeting the disaffected working and middle classes. (Duke, a former Klansman, was discussed in strikingly similar terms in a 1990 Ron Paul Political Report.) These groups could be mobilized to oppose an expansive state, Rothbard posited, by exposing an "unholy alliance of 'corporate liberal' Big Business and media elites, who, through big government, have privileged and caused to rise up a parasitic Underclass, who, among them all, are looting and oppressing the bulk of the middle and working classes in America."
Anyone with doubts about the composition of the "parasitic Underclass" could look to the regular "PC Watch" feature of the Report, in which Rockwell compiled tale after tale of thuggish black men terrifying petite white and Asian women. (Think Birth of a Nation crossed with News of the Weird.) The list of PC outrages in the February 1993 issue, for example, cited a Washington Post column on films that feature "plenty of interracial sex, and nobody noticing," a news article about black members of the Southern Methodist University marching band "engaged in mass shoplifting while in Japan," and a sob story about a Korean shop-owner who shot a black shoplifter and assailant in the head: The travesty is that Mrs. Du got five years probation, and must cancel a trip to Korea.
The populist outreach program centered on tax reduction, abolition of welfare, elimination of "the entire 'civil rights' structure, which tramples on the property rights of every American," and a police crackdown on "street criminals." "Cops must be unleashed," Rothbard wrote, "and allowed to administer instant punishment, subject of course to liability when they are in error." While they're at it, they should "clear the streets of bums and vagrants. Where will they go? Who cares?" To seal the deal with social conservatives, Rothbard urged a federalist compromise in their direction on "pornography, prostitution, or abortion." And because grassroots organizing is "plodding and boring," this new paleo coalition would need to be kick-started by "high-level, preferably presidential, political campaigns."
The presidential campaign Rothbard and Rockwell supported in 1988 was Ron Paul's run on the Libertarian Party ticket. In 1992, they were again ready to back Paul, until Pat Buchanan convinced the obstetrician to withdraw and back his conservative challenge to then-president Bush. "We have a dream," Rockwell wrote in that same January 1992 edition of RRR, "and perhaps someday it will come to pass. (Hell, if 'Dr.' King can have a dream, why can't we?) Our dream is that, one day, we Buchananites can present Mr. and Mrs. America, and all the liberal and conservative and centrist elites, with a dramatic choice....We can say: 'Look, gang: you have a choice, it's either Pat Buchanan or David Duke.'"
Carol Moore, a left-libertarian activist who opposed Rothbard, Rockwell, and Paul at the late 1980s Libertarian conventions that led to the paleo split, theorizes that the defeat made them bitter. "They had a tendency to be anti-PC," Moore told reason, "and it was really stepped up after they lost. They were really angry and not that funny."
They are less angry these days. Visitors to LewRockwell.com or Mises.org since 2001 are less likely to feel the need for a shower. One can almost detect what sounds like mellowing in Rockwell's reflections on the high and heady paleo days, unburdened by ominous warnings of the looming race war. Nowadays the fiery rhetoric is directed at the "pimply-faced" Kirchick, "Benito" Giuliani, and the "so-called 'libertarians'" at reason and Cato.
But perhaps the best refutation of the old approach is not the absence of race-baiting rhetoric from its progenitors, but the success of the 2008 Ron Paul phenomenon. The man who was once the Great Paleolibertarian Hope has built a broad base of enthusiastic supporters without resorting to venomous rhetoric or coded racism. He has stuck stubbornly to the issues of sound money, "humble foreign policy," and shrinking the state. He wraps up his speeches with a three-part paean to individualism: "I don't want to run your life," "I don't want to run the economy," and "I don't want to run the world." He talks about the disproportionate effect of the drug war on African-Americans, and appeared at a September 2007 Republican debate on black issues that was boycotted by the then-frontrunners. All this and more have brought him $30 million-plus from more than 100,000 donors; thousands of campaign volunteers; and the largest rallies he's ever spoken to, including a crowd of almost 5,000 in Philadelphia.
Yet those new supporters, many of whom are first encountering libertarian ideas through the Ron Paul Revolution, deserve a far more frank explanation than the campaign has as yet provided of how their candidate's name ended up atop so many ugly words. Ron Paul may not be a racist, but he became complicit in a strategy of pandering to racists—and taking "moral responsibility" for that now means more than just uttering the phrase. It means openly grappling with his own past—acknowledging who said what, and why. Otherwise he risks damaging not only his own reputation, but that of the philosophy to which he has committed his life.
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I know you believe that Ron Paul had nothing to do with. I think this is obvious nonsense.
Yet another failure of reading comprehension. I clearly stated that there is no evidence that Ron Paul is a vehement racist. You cited the newsletters as evidence; I've demonstrated that the claim that these were not his words is valid and substansive. Ron Paul was involved with his medical practice at the time, and a ghost-writer confirmed by Ron Paul has been pointed to by numerous relevant sources as being responsible, further evidenced by his own work later on that continued to perpetuate the ideas in question.
The real question is to which degree Ron Paul was aware of the statements. He may have known nothing of what was said, or he may have known but was complicit, as it was acheiving political goals. Regardless, my statement was that there was no evidence that Ron Paul was a vehement racist, and, as there is no evidence regarding Ron Paul's knowledge and personal feelings regarding the statements, for which exists evidence that he did not personally write these statements, nothing can be concluded as to whether or not he is a vehement racist, from the newsletters.
In fact, in consideration of the plethora of statements and stances that can be directly attributed to Ron Paul, it would seem evident that he is not. This is given credence when one considers that the NAACP chapter president in Austin, who has shared a personal relationship with Ron Paul for twenty years, has testified that he is not a racist. It is hard to imagine that a prominent black figure would continue a relationship with or stand up for Ron Paul if there was any sign that he was a vehement racist. Furthermore, Walter E. Williams, a black professor, endorsed Ron Paul for President and was suggested as a possible running mate by Ron Paul. It is hard to imagine a vehement racist pronouncing interest in selecting a black man as his running mate for Vice President.
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I'm not trying to convince you of anything, you are a fanatic.
A fanatic? I've clearly expressed my line of reasoning and provided substantation for my claims, which is far more than you can say for yourself.
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Yeah, okay Buddy...
Ahh, I should have been more specific, as I have not reviewed all of the statements from the newsletters. I was keeping in mind statements concerning how some people in the gay community are proud to have AIDS and seek it out (which was in reference to an article at the time by the Rolling Stone that cited as much), as well as the quote about Martin Luther King, which is substantiated by reports from agents who surveilled him, an autobiography by Ralph Abernathy that purportedly confirms some of these claims (haven't read it), to the fact that the bulk of the FBI files which contain direct evidence from surveillance regarding MLK were sealed until 2027 while the rest was released.
Anyways, my statement was made in response to the notion that the newsletters confirmed that Ron Paul was a vehement racist, which, even if the words were his, is not displayed within them, and I have no interest in defending the statements themselves.
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Does that sound like it was written by a random guy?
"My training as a physician?"
Its a damn shame that the ghost-writer didn't type "My training as a construction worker". I can't imagine a ghost-writer would make it sound as though they were writing as the person they are pretending to be.

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Get your head out of the sand, either the guy is a racist and a homophobe now or he was in the past...
No, reality confirms that there are other alternatives to these limited conclusions to be drawn. Of course, had you sought to produce any sort of confirmation or substantiation for your baseless claims, you might have considered this possibility.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: Yes, another thread where you tell me I cannot read.
Please, stop.
I'll stop when you demonstrate that you can. It wasn't another thread, it was another post within a thread. Furthermore, I did not suggest that you cannot read, but questioned your ability to comprehend what I wrote. Not only did I tell you as much, but I also cited direct evidence supporting my claim.
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I have two college degrees as quite a few people here can attest.
This is an appeal to authority, which is a logical fallacy. The simple fact that you have two college degrees does not refute my specific claims that you have, in certain instances, failed to comprehend what was presented, which is why it is a fallacy to make it seem as though it does.
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Stop acting like I am.
Demonstrate that you aren't by refuting my evidence to the contrary.
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I'm not even responding to that.
I'll take this as a resignation, which is fortunate, because I have little interest in continuing this further and have only done so to provide to others that your assessment of my behavior is baseless and that there does exist a way in which ideas can actually be exchanged in a substansial manner. It is not surprising that you won't respond, because a lot of people are not willing to admit that they were wrong.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
undergrounder said: Didn't someone say this thread was only going to be sticked for 24 hours?
I don't believe anyone said as much in this thread, but my request was for it to be stickied for one day. Geokills stated when he did so that he wouldn't be around to unsticky it. I'll notify the mods to request the admins de-sticky it, as it has run its course.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Le_Canard
The Duk Abides


Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
paradis said: I'm pretty sure Ron Paul is a vehement racist. Stormfront.org fuckin loves that guy
So, essentially, you are blatantly uninformed?
No, they really do love the guy.
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
I'll take this as a resignation, people are not willing to admit that they were wrong.
The only part of that overwrought manifesto that I'll deign to respond to is this one. You can take it as no such thing. I'm not resigned to any such idea.
I'm not going to continue an argument with someone who will not listen to any possible viewpoint other than his own and refutes any possible error in his own forumulations as having been solely based on a lack of understanding on the part of another.
I don't think you're right, I think you're wrong. I'm not resigning to anything, except that debate with you is pointless.
Politics is beyond you. You are a philosopher, and thus absolutely unable to state anything simply and clearly, and can only parse words and obfuscate until your opponent chokes on your own verbosity.
I'm done.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
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God, it's going to be great when this election season is over. We'll never have to hear from Paul nuts again because he's too old to possibly run anymore.
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Redstorm]
#7974319 - 02/03/08 05:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yeah but in 2012 it will be another wishy-washy nut who gives reformers the illusion of a voice.
Perot, Nader, Paul... see the commonality?
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Middleman]
#7974328 - 02/03/08 05:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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woa i never noticed this before..
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: AlteredAgain]
#7974343 - 02/03/08 05:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yeah, notice how they always get a weakling to play the role.
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Cowgold
Bullshit


Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 12,486
Loc: .
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Your attitude embarrasses me to even vote for the guy. If it's gonna turn everybody into douchebags, then fuck him.
Don't defend the guy, you're not helping.
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wyldeman007
Student



Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 309
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Last seen: 8 months, 28 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Cowgold]
#7975557 - 02/03/08 09:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Those assholes! Voting for someone they believe in... what a bunch of dumb asses! Go fuck yourself if you identify not only with a man but a large portion of your neighbors, you dicks!
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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wyldeman007
Student



Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 309
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Last seen: 8 months, 28 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: wyldeman007]
#7975580 - 02/03/08 10:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Vote for anyone else besides Ron Paul, then you unknowingly allow this shit to continue:
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
Edited by wyldeman007 (02/03/08 10:03 PM)
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: wyldeman007]
#7975602 - 02/03/08 10:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
wyldeman007 said: Those assholes! Voting for someone they believe in... what a bunch of dumb asses! Go fuck yourself if you identify not only with a man but a large portion of your neighbors, you dicks!
What does this even mean?
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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wyldeman007
Student



Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 309
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Last seen: 8 months, 28 days
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Just a little humor, do you take offense? Well I apologize in advance.
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: wyldeman007]
#7975648 - 02/03/08 10:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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No, I don't care at all.
Humor hasn't been outlawed here.
I just really didn't understand.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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wyldeman007
Student



Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 309
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Last seen: 8 months, 28 days
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I've donated money towards this guy that I support, have you donated money to someone you believed in? If so then why don't you get the joke?
I'll elaborate on my sense of humor if you like, just give me a question to analyze.
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Le_Canard]
#7975985 - 02/03/08 11:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
ToiletDuk said: No, they really do love the guy.
I was referring to the baseless assertion that Ron Paul himself is a vehement racist; I know that they do love him. People from all walks of life do... They most likely feel that he is sympathetic to their cause due to his stance on state rights. A central aspect of the struggle of state rights vs. the federal government, of course, has been regarding Southern states, in which slavery and civil rights has been involved.
Its easy to misconstrue his beliefs as being racist on the matter when the matters become so emotionally charged, and its certainly not helped when people working with him on his old newspaper pandered to these people, who stand for the same ideals regarding state rights, but for the wrong reasons (they are racists).
The interesting thing about Ron Paul himself is that he does not pander at all, and there are several dramatic examples of this. I recall watching a debate that was specifically targeted to the Latin community, on a Spanish channel, I think. You should have heard the negative reaction he got to one of his responses, which I believe was concerning the United States leaving Castro and Hugo Chavez the fuck alone, because we have no authority to intervene in the internal affairs of other nations. I've seen him directly tell someone wearing a "I'm for universal health care and I vote!" t-shirt, on stage, in front of others wearing the same shirt, that universal health care doesn't work and that the government has no right to take money from others to pay for your health care. Hell, I've even seen him in front of a bunch of neoconservatives, one who was chiding him for his stance on the War on Drugs, asserting that what we really should do is stop it at the borders and give out harsh jail sentences and everything like that, to which Ron Paul stated that drug use is not a criminal problem, that it is a medical one, that the government has no right to choose for an individual what they should do with their own life, even when they make choices that are detrimental for their own life, and that maybe they should put him on a diet, because he is a little overweight. 
The federal government has a damnable history of taking for itself more power and authority, not granted by the Constitution, which it does under the banner of the greater good. It has wrongly superceded state rights, from instituting the Department of Education, to arresting medical marijuana users in a state in which its usage has been legalized, under federal law which is Unconstitutional (no one actually buys that the federal government has the authority to do so under the Commerce clause). It has taken away property rights from private restaurants who did not wish to serve people of a certain color (knowing it didn't have Constitutional authority to do so, it used the Commerce clause again, stating that, if the restaurant served people who have traveled in from another state, for example, or served goods that came in from another state, it had authority to intervene). Today the federal government takes away the right of citizens to leave a private life. It unconstitutionally interferes in the internal affairs of other nations. The list goes on and on and on and on and on....
Its easy for people to assert that Ron Paul is a racist when he stands agansit the Civil Rights Act as Unconstitutional. This is no different than people who assert that he is an apologist to terrorists when he explains the fact that our undue presence in their region gives them incentive to attack us. The fact that racists who decry the Civil Rights Act for different reasons support Ron Paul, and the fact that Lew Rockwell was writing as Ron Paul for a time to pander to these people for political reasons makes it worse, but it doesn't mean that Ron Paul himself is a vehement racist.
The fact is that Ron Paul is a strong proponent of individual rights and liberty, as well as the Constitution, which is set to protect those rights. Racism is collectivism, which he repeatedly denounces. "We don't get our rights because we're gays or women or minorities. We get our rights from our creator as individuals. So every individual should be treated the same way."
Quote:
Ron Paul himself said: The overwhelming media response to recent remarks by Senator Trent Lott shows that the nation remains incredibly sensitive about matters of race, despite the outward progress of the last 40 years. A nation that once prided itself on a sense of rugged individualism has become uncomfortably obsessed with racial group identities.
In the aftermath of the Lott debacle, we must not allow the term "states’ rights" to be smeared and distorted into code words for segregationist policies or racism. States’ rights simply means the individual states should retain authority over all matters not expressly delegated to the federal government in Article I of the Constitution. Most of the worst excesses of big government can be traced to a disregard for states’ rights, which means a disregard for the Ninth and Tenth amendments. The real reason liberals hate the concept of states’ right has nothing to do with racism, but rather reflects a hostility toward anything that would act as a limit on the power of the federal government.
Yet it is the federal government more than anything else that divides us along race, class, religion, and gender lines. The federal government, through its taxes, restrictive regulations, corporate subsidies, racial set-asides, and welfare programs, plays far too large a role in determining who succeeds and who fails in our society. This government "benevolence" crowds out genuine goodwill between men by institutionalizing group thinking, thus making each group suspicious that others are receiving more of the government loot. Americans know that factors other than merit in the free market often play a part in the success of some, and this leads to resentment and hostility between us.
Still, the left argues that stringent federal laws are needed to combat racism, always implying of course that southern states are full of bigoted rednecks who would oppress minorities if not for the watchful eye of Washington. They ignore, however, the incredible divisiveness created by their collectivist big-government policies.
Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans only as members of groups and never as individuals. Racists believe that all individual who share superficial physical characteristics are alike; as collectivists, racists think only in terms of groups. By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism. Their intense focus on race is inherently racist, because it views individuals only as members of racial groups.
Conservatives and libertarians should fight back and challenge the myth that collectivist liberals care more about racism. Modern liberalism, however well intentioned, is a byproduct of the same collectivist thinking that characterizes racism. The continued insistence on group thinking only inflames racial tensions.
The true antidote to racism is liberty. Liberty means having a limited, constitutional government devoted to the protection of individual rights rather than group claims. Liberty means free-market capitalism, which rewards individual achievement and competence, not skin color, gender, or ethnicity. In a free market, businesses that discriminate lose customers, goodwill, and valuable employees – while rational businesses flourish by choosing the most qualified employees and selling to all willing buyers. More importantly, in a free society every citizen gains a sense of himself as an individual, rather than developing a group or victim mentality. This leads to a sense of individual responsibility and personal pride, making skin color irrelevant. Rather than looking to government to correct what is essentially a sin of the heart, we should understand that reducing racism requires a shift from group thinking to an emphasis on individualism.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Cowgold]
#7976029 - 02/03/08 11:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cowgold said: Your attitude embarrasses me to even vote for the guy. If it's gonna turn everybody into douchebags, then fuck him.
My attitude (not sure exactly what you refer to) is a disdain for individuals who approach the topic for discussion in a dismissive manner, demonstate a lack of understanding of the subject, and do not honestly engage in a discussion of the subject, not being able to support their own conclusions and perspective on the matter in any sort of conclusive, substansial way, but instead try to make up for it by attempting to shift the discussion to myself.
I have no negative attitude for people who hold differing viewpoints, or who do not agree with me personally, but only those who cannot engage in productive exchange of viewpoints, unable to support their own assertions when they are demonstrated to reflect the nature of reality, and yet, at the same time, feel the need to denounce me for seeking true discussion, and, dare I say, proving them wrong.
I guess it just bothers some when they give someone else moronic attitude and someone calls them on their bullshit. Of course they'd love to portray my response to them as being resultant from an inability to consider all perspectives that do not agree with my own, as it makes it easier to avoid facing the fact that it is only that they themselves are wrong and that they are going getting served some attitude with their enlightenment because they came into it acting like assholes in the first place.
I wouldn't feel like I was so right on the matter if he could actually demonstrate how wrong I was. I'm not going to go count how many times I refuted his wrong conclusions about what I said, as well as the times I've produced evidence to back up my claims in complete absence of the same from him. Anytime I do, it is not responded to because of my "attitude" or because it is "too verbose" or because I "don't consider other perspectives". These excuses aren't going to fly.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: I'm not going to continue an argument with someone who will not listen to any possible viewpoint other than his own and refutes any possible error in his own forumulations as having been solely based on a lack of understanding on the part of another.
I contest the idea that I will not listen to any possible viewpoint other than my own, as it is directly evidenced, even in this thread, that not only do I listen, I also respond to what was actually stated, instead of either deliberately misconstruing to change the terms of the discussion in one's favor or simply failing to comprehend what was read, as I've observed from you.
No possible error in the perspective I have presented has been substansively dismissed as an error. It isn't enough for you to simply say I am wrong and leave it at that, and if you don't understand why that is, you have a long way to go before you can approach any discussion of ideas in a productive, honest manner.
Quote:
I don't think you're right, I think you're wrong. I'm not resigning to anything, except that debate with you is pointless.
I know you think I'm wrong, and I also know you have not went any length to effectively demonstrate that I am wrong. Your debating with me is pointless if you can't actually substantiate how I am wrong. When I substantiate my claims that you are the one who is wrong, you do not respond to the basis for my claims that I present, and you do not go to any length to demonstrate how it is that I am wrong.
It is no failing of my own that you have thus far demonstrated no ability to actually discuss the ideas presented. Surely if you were capable of supporting your position in this discussion, you would have done so, instead of making all these excuses as to why I am to blame for your not discussing the topic at hand.
Quote:
Politics is beyond you.
No it isn't.
Quote:
You are a philosopher, and thus absolutely unable to state anything simply and clearly, and can only parse words and obfuscate until your opponent chokes on your own verbosity.
Yes, because reality is always so simple as "a presidental candidate can only affect change if they are elected", or "if the newsletter has its name on it then its verified that they wrote the newsletter themselves".
My substantiation for my ideas and my refutation of yours is sorcery and trickery, dash it! I would think that the appeal to authority you produced earlier, college degrees and all that, should have been more than enough to equip you with the ability to navigate through what I've said in this thread and successfully engage in substantiated discussion, but I guess it was nothing but another excuse to avoid personal responsibility for supporting one's viewpoints...
Quote:
I'm done.
I appreciate the half-effort you put into this discussion, most of which was focused on my personal nature instead of the actual ideas being discussed.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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For anyone who wants to know the real Ron Paul, I'm posting the most comprehensive viewpoint of who he is and the ideals he stands for, expressed in a very clear, effective way by Dr. Paul himself. I fully welcome anyone to listen to what he has to say and criticize the ideas he stands for in this thread. It would be refreshing to debate ideas instead of excuses for once.
The audio for the first minute or so in the first video is kind of distorted, likely due to technical problems from the satellite link-up. This is from two days ago. The ways in which he is capable of demonstrating how his perspective on single issues correspond to all of the issues our country is facing today serves as evidence that his perspective on reality is thorough and an accurate representation of reality itself. The fact that most people think that they win the race by betting on the horse that wins it is tragic when one considers that what really matters is not their ability to campaign, which, to do succesfully, almost necessarily implies compromising one's integrity by pandering to powerful special interests that do not represent the ideals this country was founded upon, nor the American people, who most directly benefit from the flourishment of these ideas. Once again, the fact that Ron Paul has been so successful, simply due to the support of the American people is very inspiring, and hopefully this country has not damned by itself to the point that this movement which has just begun very strongly won't be able to continue progress towards saving it.
My favorite part, I think, which refers directly to the above sentiment, is when Ron Paul states that this country will stop interfering in the internal affairs of other nations, either voluntarily, or as a result of our losing the means to do so through the economic collapse of this country, due to the policy of doing so in the first place. Hopefully it will be the former, to avoid the needless suffering of a lot of people in this country, but, either way, it needs to happen, because the rest of the world is ready to move on without the United States and its empire of subsidization, coercion, and intervention.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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John Nada
Toujours Frais

Registered: 03/03/03
Posts: 97,746
Loc: Hotwings; race car
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Luckily he won't win, and it's all a puppet show anyway, but it's quite disturbing that such supposed "open minded" people will spit in the face of reason just to uphold beliefs they've already invested in.
Oh and fireworks_god, you can admit you think blacks are inferior, you and Ron Paul don't have to hide behind this thin veil.
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WhiskeyClone
Not here


Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: John Nada]
#7976855 - 02/04/08 08:30 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
paradis said:
Oh and fireworks_god, you can admit you think blacks are inferior, you and Ron Paul don't have to hide behind this thin veil.
Come on man, that's a bit ridiculous.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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John Nada
Toujours Frais

Registered: 03/03/03
Posts: 97,746
Loc: Hotwings; race car
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#7976863 - 02/04/08 08:33 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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How the fuck is it ridiculous? Search for the word "nigger" under "fireworks_god" in the search feature, and you can see the
You know, I don't even know why the fuck I came back to this cesspool. Full of a bunch of racist pieces of shit
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WhiskeyClone
Not here


Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: John Nada]
#7976894 - 02/04/08 08:52 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
paradis said: You know, I don't even know why the fuck I came back to this cesspool. Full of a bunch of racist pieces of shit
If The Shroomery is a cesspool, you're just another turd.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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John Nada
Toujours Frais

Registered: 03/03/03
Posts: 97,746
Loc: Hotwings; race car
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#7976903 - 02/04/08 08:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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How is that?
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Stein
Stranger


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 35,129
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: John Nada]
#7976943 - 02/04/08 09:07 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Just because someone uses the word 'nigger' does not mean they are racist.
So, are you saying that every nigger that uses the word nigger is racist?
Come on man, think a little. I don't think fireworks used the word in a literal sense to demean anyone.
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John Nada
Toujours Frais

Registered: 03/03/03
Posts: 97,746
Loc: Hotwings; race car
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Stein]
#7976983 - 02/04/08 09:20 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Come on, Stein. After posting here for a long time I know better than that. You know as well as I. What I think is that most people who use the word "nigger" repeatedly in reference to black people, are racist and feel blacks are inferior, obviously. Especially when they say things like 'You can't teach them niggers" "Niggers are always doing shit like that, soulless monkies" ETC,ETC,ETC. It goes on and on and on
If you went to a primarily black website, and there were 1,000s and 1000's of posts, 100's made everyday where they endlessly slandered "honkies" and repeatedly expressed how they felt whites were inferior, what would you think they mean?
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Cowgold
Bullshit


Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 12,486
Loc: .
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: John Nada]
#7977320 - 02/04/08 11:13 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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You'd think after getting the whip for a hundred years or so would give you people thick skin. 
Racism is not a problem in this country. Hell, we have a black dude that has a serious chance of becoming president. If anything we're overly sensitive.
The race card is pulled way too much, imo. It's pretty obvious if someone makes a truely racist statement. It's filled with hate. To me, what makes most racial comments funny is how sensitivity blinds people to the obvious humor. Most of the comments are generalizations that are ridiculous. "Black people watermelon and chicken." Watermelon and chicken are awesome, I don't see what's so embarrassing.
Edited by Cowgold (02/04/08 11:22 AM)
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John Nada
Toujours Frais

Registered: 03/03/03
Posts: 97,746
Loc: Hotwings; race car
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Cowgold]
#7977438 - 02/04/08 11:50 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Barack Obama is half black. But I don't see how a black guy running for president would mean the country is oversensitive, regardless. But anyway hell I mean he's only the first one so it's not like just cause there's a black guy running for president that racism isn't a problem, haha
"you people" ?? I'm not black. People online tend to think you're black if you don't agree with racist sentiment or say something about it. That's always a trip to me
But anyway, I really just need to quit arguing about racism. Most people of most races are pretty fucking racist, and it's a futile effort. Most people in general are simple minded pieces of shit. Whether white or black, or whatever else.
Fuck Ron Paul though, haha
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wyldeman007
Student



Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 309
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Last seen: 8 months, 28 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: John Nada]
#7978120 - 02/04/08 03:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Words are words man, intentions and actions are the only merit one can judge by.
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: John Nada]
#7978911 - 02/04/08 05:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Hey Paradis.
Long time since I've seen you around these parts.
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OneMoreRobot3021



Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 61,024
Loc: the sky
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Redstorm]
#7978917 - 02/04/08 05:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Can someone please unsticky this?
-------------------- Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake. -Erik Davis
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TheCow
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 4,790
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: spud]
#7979442 - 02/04/08 07:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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What about his economic policies. Why do you think that a libertarian economic policy is good for America? Do you realize that this economic system has already been tried? How much of a free market guy is he. Meaning does he think we should help out the poor with a standard work week, minimum wage, child labor laws, etc... I know he is against welfare, does he have a plan to get poor people money or is his and your stance, 'fuck em'? How much power do you really want in the hands of corporations. Answer this honestly, do you see the poor of America as being better or worse off if Ron Paul gets elected. I realize he cant enact all the changes he wants to as that would have to come from the legislative branch, but say he got his way on every account, how would the poor fare?
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PinheadX
Stranger thanyou



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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: TheCow]
#7979858 - 02/04/08 08:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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well, if by poor you mean those who don't work and are able-bodied, then yeah... I say (and I don't know what Ron Paul's plan on welfare is, but...) fuck 'em. You don't work, you don't eat.
If you get all the bullshit out of the way, all the taxes, all the welfare to the illegal immigrants, all the restrictions and programs that make it more attractive for those on welfare to stay on welfare, you'll have people who are still poor at the present time, but at least able to improve their situation and who will be better off in the long run because they won't be dependent on the government or anyone else for their own livelihood.
Not to mention, he's only talking about doing this on a federal level. States can still have welfare programs if they so choose (and the voters and politicians in those states will most likely see to that), and all these "jobs that Americans won't do" will be available if you only give those jobs to low income Americans instead of below minimum wage under the table paid illegals.
If you watch the videos on the MTV thingy earlier in the thread, he says the first place you start cutting funding is not at home, but in foreign wars and occupation. This leads me to believe that he is not interested in cutting people off all at once, but scaling back and limiting eligibility of those on welfare now, so that they can end their dependence on it. Replace the government dole with assistance from local charities which should have more money due to the populace having more money to donate due to no tax burden, and you really have no change in assistance for those who really need the help.
-------------------- If you want to find psilocybin in species that are not yet known to be psychoactive, you should do chemical tests. That way you won't get sick and die all the time. - Alan Rockefeller Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
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TheCow
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: PinheadX]
#7979907 - 02/04/08 08:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Seems like you are dodging the question though really. I just said poor people, I have friends who come from backgrounds where they were extremely poor. Parents worked shitty jobs and had no money after expenses. Things like food stamps, welfare, those things actually do make a difference to some people. So how about those people? Still just fuck em? I mean thats alright by me if thats your opinion, but its a hard sell to the American population. It just strikes me that his economic policies are great if you have money. As for charities taking place of welfare,
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PinheadX
Stranger thanyou



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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: TheCow]
#7979966 - 02/04/08 08:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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no, if they are working, they won't be paying taxes and suffering from inflation, as the dollar will be backed by the gold standard once again. It's simple economics. More money in your pocket is more money for you to spend on necessities.
and as far as charities taking the place of welfare... yeah. How do you think disabled people got by in years before welfare and disability?
-------------------- If you want to find psilocybin in species that are not yet known to be psychoactive, you should do chemical tests. That way you won't get sick and die all the time. - Alan Rockefeller Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: TheCow]
#7981143 - 02/05/08 12:32 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
TheCow said: What about his economic policies. Why do you think that a libertarian economic policy is good for America? Do you realize that this economic system has already been tried?
When was it tried? I'm not too familiar with what a libertarian economic policy is, but I am familiar with a few ideas that he has thrown out there regarding the economy. Essentially, I think some of the changes he would seek regarding the money itself is to force through changes that would make the Federal Reserve more transparent, and to be held more accountable to Congress. He's also proposed the idea of allowing competing currencies to be allowed, so that people who want to use money that has value associated with it would be free to do so. He definitely stands agansit the continuous printing of more money. Of course, he asserts that we should only have gold/silver as legal currency. I'm not certain how practical this is due to the size of the economy, but it would seem that introducing competing currencies would be a first step.
It seems to me that a lot of his ideas about a free marketplace make sense. I know he's been quoted as saying don't dismiss capitalism, because we haven't had it. One of the more recent things I've heard him say was regarding our dependence on fossil fuels. We use our military to try to keep the price low, instead of using the natural forces of a free market to find incentive in innovating new technology and alternative sources of energy - let the price naturally rise. Of course, the Iraqi War has played the largest role in tripling the price of oil, simply due to how much we consume in fighting the war. That certainly doesn't help the environment.
The most crucial aspect of his economic policies, though, is to stop harming the economy by taking money out of it. Most of the spending the federal government does is completely unnecessary. We realistically don't even need to pay a federal income tax if we made some simple cuts in federal spending, mostly overseas, and the federal government could still function at a level it did ten years ago. The economy seemed fine then, in fact, I believe the deficit actually went down underneath Clinton, probably due to the fact that we weren't fighting huge wars....
The most ridiculous thing about our situation today is the federal government's "solution" to the economy: welfare checks! I still can't conclude if these people are just so conditioned to thinking that the federal government can actually help the economy by sucking up its wealth and then distributing a little bit of it back and telling people to spend, creating billions of more deficit spending, or if they are intentionally seeking to destroy the dollar and make the middle class dependent upon it and its welfare checks....
The federal government itself is the greatest tax on the economy, and to think that the federal government can save the economy by doing anything but slashing itself away is delusional. Right now the federal government is malignant, and it is going to spend, spend, spend, print, print, print, and borrow, borrow, borrow as though it can sustain this.
His economic policy is the greatest one that is being run on right now. I think it is a safe statement to make that, if anyone is truly concerned about the economic direction this country is headed into right now, the one issue that they should vote on is whether or not their candidate will cut federal spending. McCain loves to say that he will, but the only area that a President can really cut federal spending is overseas, which is the least painful way to cut spending for Americans themselves. If you went all out, you could cut enough money to eliminate the federal income tax itself, simply by cutting our overseas expenditures. The fringe benefits from doing so for our country, as well, will all be welcomed - greater national defense, secure borders, less incentive for extremists in the Middle East to attack us here at home, the simple fact that our troops are home, etc.
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How much of a free market guy is he. Meaning does he think we should help out the poor with a standard work week, minimum wage, child labor laws, etc...
I've never heard any of his positions on these things, probably because they aren't on the agenda. I don't think any politician would seek to eliminate child labor laws, even if they did want them removed.
I think the biggest question regarding his stance on these types of things is the role the federal government plays. The beautiful thing is that the federal government doesn't really have to play a role in most anything. We have fifty states who have different people who wish to be represented in different ways. The most beautiful experiment in freedom would be to restore the federal government to a Constitutional-sized level, taking care of national defense and interstate commerce and whatnot, and simply letting each state be.
What this would do, of course, is put the power of the government back into the hands of the people, in a much more empowering way. The people could choose how they wished to be represented. If someone simply did not like the way they were being governed, they could either work together to change things in their own state or move to a different state. States with repressive policies would suffer, as states would be in competition with each other. Clearly some regulation by the government is necessary, to protect the interests of people from corporations. Putting the center of power back into state government would give the people the means to protect their interests from corporations. Right now we have a federal government that is not really held accountable to the people and is in collusion with huge corporate interests. The further the center of power is from the hands of the people, the more tyranny naturally exists... and we have a natural movement even further towards world government. Its insane.
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I know he is against welfare, does he have a plan to get poor people money or is his and your stance, 'fuck em'?
His stance is that you cannot really attack most of our domestic spending, even if a lot of it is Unconstitutional, because there are people who are dependent upon it, and because we've subsidized and taught this way for so long. If he actually did get elected, you wouldn't see him kick people to the curb. What you would see, of course, is to cut the foreign spending, since we can't afford to subsidize the rest of the world and ourselves as well.
Its easy to hear a one line "Ron Paul is agansit welfare" and think that his stance is to simply eliminate Social Security or welfare, but he always talks about transitions. What you do, with Social Security for example, is work the people who are dependent on this system through it, while giving new people the opportunity to never get tied into that system. Of course, as he has said, the first thing would have been to never spend Social Security money for anything but Social Security, pointing out that he never voted to do so.
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How much power do you really want in the hands of corporations.
Well, we should ask ourselves that question, regarding how much power they already have. Look towards Washington for your answer. Washington is nothing but a nozzle from which billions of dollars spews forth, and then you just look to see who is standing there as it happens. The corporations already have far more power over the American people than most realize. We essentially have corporatism now, the control of the state by large interest groups.
Restricting and limiting the federal government and its spending, Ron Paul's comprehensive platform, would hurt large corporations most and benefit the American people and small businesses more. Anyone who thinks we aren't getting fucked in Washington by the corporations and the government isn't paying attention.
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Answer this honestly, do you see the poor of America as being better or worse off if Ron Paul gets elected.
Better, because the economic prosperity of this country would thrive as the federal government wouldn't be able to harm the economy to the extent it does now, through taxation and bowing to the interets of huge conglomerates that benefit from government regulation that stifles competition. I see more job opportunities for the poor that are willing or capable of working. The amazing thing is that the poor in this country seemed to get along before the federal government became this huge state.
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I realize he cant enact all the changes he wants to as that would have to come from the legislative branch, but say he got his way on every account, how would the poor fare?
Well, the legislative branch wouldn't be the only limiting factor on his enacting all of the change he would want to see, or, that is, different changes would be enacted over different time frames. Some things could happen near immediately, such as bringing troops home from around the planet, whereas he could only lay the foundation for eliminating some domestic spending. It isn't as though he is seeking to make underprivledged Americans suffer.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Gastronomicus
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Are you gonna be quiet after Super Tuesday when Ron wins absolutely nothing?
-------------------- Make my Funk the P Funk, I wants to get Funked up
LAGM2024
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: PinheadX]
#7981201 - 02/05/08 12:49 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
PinheadX said: Not to mention, he's only talking about doing this on a federal level. States can still have welfare programs if they so choose (and the voters and politicians in those states will most likely see to that)
This is the beauty of giving power back to the states. Some people who don't understand what it actually means simply think its a candidate's way of avoiding taking a stance on a tough issue, but it isn't the case. When you get the federal government, with its taxes, out of the way, the states are inherently more capable of taking care of their own people. The states themselves can decide how much money they wish to tax and how to spend it, and the whole process will be a representation of the people, as all of the decisions are occuring on an accessible level to them. Poverty is a local issue, not all poverty is the same, and a state government will be much more capable of identifying the true source of the problem and an effective course of action to take. If the people in the state said "fuck the poor", they would have to live with the consequences of saying so, either from having homeless people on their sidewalks, higher crime rates, etc., and they would have more incentive to seek effective solutions (more job opportunities, transitional programs that help people get on their feet, etc.).
The more local the government is, the better all of reality will be. Higher levels of government only exist to protect the rights of individuals, to ensure that one locality is not imposing upon the rights of others. The Consitution identifies individuals as sovereign beings.
A lot of people don't realize that freedom exists on one end of a spectrum, tyranny on another. Freedom <-----> Tyranny. We're either heading towards one or the other, and we can't have it both ways. Its either the individual or the state, and one gains more rights as one loses. Any politican who gains personal power from the state and not the people is only going to lead this country further along towards tyranny. Anyone watching who the top candidates are on each side should be noticing that the parties are merging into one. This isn't a good thing.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



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Quote:
Gastronomicus said:

Are you gonna be quiet after Super Tuesday when Ron wins absolutely nothing?
No I'm not; this is a discussion of ideas, and is not a discussion of Ron Paul's political chances of success. If you're so tired of it, go back to sleep and see where it leads.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Zinglons Acolyte
Wizard Ninja



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Take off every 'ZIG'!! You know what you doing. Move 'ZIG'. For great justice!
-------------------- And they wandered off.. nine ways till bedfast. ----- "And lets pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space 'cause theres bugger-all down here on earth!" -Monty Python's "The Universe Song" from The Meaning of Life "In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely considered as a bad move." -Douglas Adams "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" "If the words 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on." -Terence McKenna
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TheCow
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: Well, we should ask ourselves that question, regarding how much power they already have. Look towards Washington for your answer. Washington is nothing but a nozzle from which billions of dollars spews forth, and then you just look to see who is standing there as it happens. The corporations already have far more power over the American people than most realize. We essentially have corporatism now, the control of the state by large interest groups.
Restricting and limiting the federal government and its spending, Ron Paul's comprehensive platform, would hurt large corporations most and benefit the American people and small businesses more. Anyone who thinks we aren't getting fucked in Washington by the corporations and the government isn't paying attention.
I don't quite understand this. Corporations are heavilly limited now a days by the FCC, and FTC for instance. Huge mergers have to be approved by the FTC so that we can avoid monopolies. The FCC has to approve certain mergers also so that we do not have monopolies over our telecommunications. It sounds like Ron Paul would want to get rid of these institutions. The obvious problem I see is that with no regulations on corporations we run the risk of monopolies, similar to what has showed up in our history before we started regulating such things.
Also I do not understand how cutting the federal government takes power away from corporations. If anything it allows them to totally run loose. Your point that they give money to candidates, buy votes, that sort of thing is merely A Workaround to get what they want. You simply propose to allow them to ignore bribes, and other things and simply just take what they want without opposition. I cannot see how this limits their power, you are giving them total control. Do you really think small businesses would be better off given a totally unrestricted Wal-Mart? Do you realize that we used to basically have a single phone company before it got broken up. I see no reason to return to this style, and it results naturally from a no rules situation.
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SoY
I am the LizardKing



Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: TheCow]
#7982304 - 02/05/08 11:30 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Do you understand how the free market, especially in today's global economy, is the voice of the people, and itself is the regulator?
Like what Fireworks was talking about, through the free market, you let the price of oil rise until the people say fuck that and there is enough incentive to create alternative fuels. The free market provides its own checks and balances, because the people are running it.
If a corporation is doing things that the people do not approve of, the power of boycotting actually does something. With a free market, corporations are trying to appease the people because if they don't, they will not make it. Today's system with government subsidies and special interest groups enables corporate control. They are not working to appease the people, they are working for themselves because they know the people have no power over their success.
btw: excellent posts Fireworks!!
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
Edited by SoY (02/05/08 11:37 AM)
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gluke bastid
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: Donating to Ron Paul is affecting actual change, even if he doesn't get elected President.
Could you explain this bit?
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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TheCow
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: SoY]
#7983029 - 02/05/08 03:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yea I understand the argument, I just dont see it as true. The price of DRAM, the memory sticks in your computer, used to be artificially high because many companies got together and started price fixing. They kept the price high, and all acted together, or as my econ teacher would point out, they followed a cooperative game strategy. This is something that governments had to go and fix. How would you as the consumer fix this? Just not buy DRAM?
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wyldeman007
Student



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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: SoY]
#7983297 - 02/05/08 04:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Fire works god is my new god!!
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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wyldeman007
Student



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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: wyldeman007]
#7984333 - 02/05/08 08:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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DELEGATE HERE!!
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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wyldeman007
Student



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I'm a virgin to democracy no more! It was a better experience than I had planned for. Politics on the grassroots level can be quite interesting...
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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