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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
I'll take this as a resignation, people are not willing to admit that they were wrong.
The only part of that overwrought manifesto that I'll deign to respond to is this one. You can take it as no such thing. I'm not resigned to any such idea.
I'm not going to continue an argument with someone who will not listen to any possible viewpoint other than his own and refutes any possible error in his own forumulations as having been solely based on a lack of understanding on the part of another.
I don't think you're right, I think you're wrong. I'm not resigning to anything, except that debate with you is pointless.
Politics is beyond you. You are a philosopher, and thus absolutely unable to state anything simply and clearly, and can only parse words and obfuscate until your opponent chokes on your own verbosity.
I'm done.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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God, it's going to be great when this election season is over. We'll never have to hear from Paul nuts again because he's too old to possibly run anymore.
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Redstorm]
#7974319 - 02/03/08 05:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yeah but in 2012 it will be another wishy-washy nut who gives reformers the illusion of a voice.
Perot, Nader, Paul... see the commonality?
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Middleman]
#7974328 - 02/03/08 05:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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woa i never noticed this before..
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: AlteredAgain]
#7974343 - 02/03/08 05:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yeah, notice how they always get a weakling to play the role.
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Cowgold
Bullshit


Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 12,486
Loc: .
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Your attitude embarrasses me to even vote for the guy. If it's gonna turn everybody into douchebags, then fuck him.
Don't defend the guy, you're not helping.
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wyldeman007
Student



Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 309
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Last seen: 8 months, 28 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Cowgold]
#7975557 - 02/03/08 09:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Those assholes! Voting for someone they believe in... what a bunch of dumb asses! Go fuck yourself if you identify not only with a man but a large portion of your neighbors, you dicks!
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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wyldeman007
Student



Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 309
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Last seen: 8 months, 28 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: wyldeman007]
#7975580 - 02/03/08 10:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Vote for anyone else besides Ron Paul, then you unknowingly allow this shit to continue:
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
Edited by wyldeman007 (02/03/08 10:03 PM)
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: wyldeman007]
#7975602 - 02/03/08 10:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
wyldeman007 said: Those assholes! Voting for someone they believe in... what a bunch of dumb asses! Go fuck yourself if you identify not only with a man but a large portion of your neighbors, you dicks!
What does this even mean?
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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wyldeman007
Student



Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 309
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Last seen: 8 months, 28 days
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Just a little humor, do you take offense? Well I apologize in advance.
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: wyldeman007]
#7975648 - 02/03/08 10:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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No, I don't care at all.
Humor hasn't been outlawed here.
I just really didn't understand.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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wyldeman007
Student



Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 309
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Last seen: 8 months, 28 days
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I've donated money towards this guy that I support, have you donated money to someone you believed in? If so then why don't you get the joke?
I'll elaborate on my sense of humor if you like, just give me a question to analyze.
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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Le_Canard]
#7975985 - 02/03/08 11:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
ToiletDuk said: No, they really do love the guy.
I was referring to the baseless assertion that Ron Paul himself is a vehement racist; I know that they do love him. People from all walks of life do... They most likely feel that he is sympathetic to their cause due to his stance on state rights. A central aspect of the struggle of state rights vs. the federal government, of course, has been regarding Southern states, in which slavery and civil rights has been involved.
Its easy to misconstrue his beliefs as being racist on the matter when the matters become so emotionally charged, and its certainly not helped when people working with him on his old newspaper pandered to these people, who stand for the same ideals regarding state rights, but for the wrong reasons (they are racists).
The interesting thing about Ron Paul himself is that he does not pander at all, and there are several dramatic examples of this. I recall watching a debate that was specifically targeted to the Latin community, on a Spanish channel, I think. You should have heard the negative reaction he got to one of his responses, which I believe was concerning the United States leaving Castro and Hugo Chavez the fuck alone, because we have no authority to intervene in the internal affairs of other nations. I've seen him directly tell someone wearing a "I'm for universal health care and I vote!" t-shirt, on stage, in front of others wearing the same shirt, that universal health care doesn't work and that the government has no right to take money from others to pay for your health care. Hell, I've even seen him in front of a bunch of neoconservatives, one who was chiding him for his stance on the War on Drugs, asserting that what we really should do is stop it at the borders and give out harsh jail sentences and everything like that, to which Ron Paul stated that drug use is not a criminal problem, that it is a medical one, that the government has no right to choose for an individual what they should do with their own life, even when they make choices that are detrimental for their own life, and that maybe they should put him on a diet, because he is a little overweight. 
The federal government has a damnable history of taking for itself more power and authority, not granted by the Constitution, which it does under the banner of the greater good. It has wrongly superceded state rights, from instituting the Department of Education, to arresting medical marijuana users in a state in which its usage has been legalized, under federal law which is Unconstitutional (no one actually buys that the federal government has the authority to do so under the Commerce clause). It has taken away property rights from private restaurants who did not wish to serve people of a certain color (knowing it didn't have Constitutional authority to do so, it used the Commerce clause again, stating that, if the restaurant served people who have traveled in from another state, for example, or served goods that came in from another state, it had authority to intervene). Today the federal government takes away the right of citizens to leave a private life. It unconstitutionally interferes in the internal affairs of other nations. The list goes on and on and on and on and on....
Its easy for people to assert that Ron Paul is a racist when he stands agansit the Civil Rights Act as Unconstitutional. This is no different than people who assert that he is an apologist to terrorists when he explains the fact that our undue presence in their region gives them incentive to attack us. The fact that racists who decry the Civil Rights Act for different reasons support Ron Paul, and the fact that Lew Rockwell was writing as Ron Paul for a time to pander to these people for political reasons makes it worse, but it doesn't mean that Ron Paul himself is a vehement racist.
The fact is that Ron Paul is a strong proponent of individual rights and liberty, as well as the Constitution, which is set to protect those rights. Racism is collectivism, which he repeatedly denounces. "We don't get our rights because we're gays or women or minorities. We get our rights from our creator as individuals. So every individual should be treated the same way."
Quote:
Ron Paul himself said: The overwhelming media response to recent remarks by Senator Trent Lott shows that the nation remains incredibly sensitive about matters of race, despite the outward progress of the last 40 years. A nation that once prided itself on a sense of rugged individualism has become uncomfortably obsessed with racial group identities.
In the aftermath of the Lott debacle, we must not allow the term "states’ rights" to be smeared and distorted into code words for segregationist policies or racism. States’ rights simply means the individual states should retain authority over all matters not expressly delegated to the federal government in Article I of the Constitution. Most of the worst excesses of big government can be traced to a disregard for states’ rights, which means a disregard for the Ninth and Tenth amendments. The real reason liberals hate the concept of states’ right has nothing to do with racism, but rather reflects a hostility toward anything that would act as a limit on the power of the federal government.
Yet it is the federal government more than anything else that divides us along race, class, religion, and gender lines. The federal government, through its taxes, restrictive regulations, corporate subsidies, racial set-asides, and welfare programs, plays far too large a role in determining who succeeds and who fails in our society. This government "benevolence" crowds out genuine goodwill between men by institutionalizing group thinking, thus making each group suspicious that others are receiving more of the government loot. Americans know that factors other than merit in the free market often play a part in the success of some, and this leads to resentment and hostility between us.
Still, the left argues that stringent federal laws are needed to combat racism, always implying of course that southern states are full of bigoted rednecks who would oppress minorities if not for the watchful eye of Washington. They ignore, however, the incredible divisiveness created by their collectivist big-government policies.
Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans only as members of groups and never as individuals. Racists believe that all individual who share superficial physical characteristics are alike; as collectivists, racists think only in terms of groups. By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism. Their intense focus on race is inherently racist, because it views individuals only as members of racial groups.
Conservatives and libertarians should fight back and challenge the myth that collectivist liberals care more about racism. Modern liberalism, however well intentioned, is a byproduct of the same collectivist thinking that characterizes racism. The continued insistence on group thinking only inflames racial tensions.
The true antidote to racism is liberty. Liberty means having a limited, constitutional government devoted to the protection of individual rights rather than group claims. Liberty means free-market capitalism, which rewards individual achievement and competence, not skin color, gender, or ethnicity. In a free market, businesses that discriminate lose customers, goodwill, and valuable employees – while rational businesses flourish by choosing the most qualified employees and selling to all willing buyers. More importantly, in a free society every citizen gains a sense of himself as an individual, rather than developing a group or victim mentality. This leads to a sense of individual responsibility and personal pride, making skin color irrelevant. Rather than looking to government to correct what is essentially a sin of the heart, we should understand that reducing racism requires a shift from group thinking to an emphasis on individualism.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Cowgold]
#7976029 - 02/03/08 11:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cowgold said: Your attitude embarrasses me to even vote for the guy. If it's gonna turn everybody into douchebags, then fuck him.
My attitude (not sure exactly what you refer to) is a disdain for individuals who approach the topic for discussion in a dismissive manner, demonstate a lack of understanding of the subject, and do not honestly engage in a discussion of the subject, not being able to support their own conclusions and perspective on the matter in any sort of conclusive, substansial way, but instead try to make up for it by attempting to shift the discussion to myself.
I have no negative attitude for people who hold differing viewpoints, or who do not agree with me personally, but only those who cannot engage in productive exchange of viewpoints, unable to support their own assertions when they are demonstrated to reflect the nature of reality, and yet, at the same time, feel the need to denounce me for seeking true discussion, and, dare I say, proving them wrong.
I guess it just bothers some when they give someone else moronic attitude and someone calls them on their bullshit. Of course they'd love to portray my response to them as being resultant from an inability to consider all perspectives that do not agree with my own, as it makes it easier to avoid facing the fact that it is only that they themselves are wrong and that they are going getting served some attitude with their enlightenment because they came into it acting like assholes in the first place.
I wouldn't feel like I was so right on the matter if he could actually demonstrate how wrong I was. I'm not going to go count how many times I refuted his wrong conclusions about what I said, as well as the times I've produced evidence to back up my claims in complete absence of the same from him. Anytime I do, it is not responded to because of my "attitude" or because it is "too verbose" or because I "don't consider other perspectives". These excuses aren't going to fly.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: I'm not going to continue an argument with someone who will not listen to any possible viewpoint other than his own and refutes any possible error in his own forumulations as having been solely based on a lack of understanding on the part of another.
I contest the idea that I will not listen to any possible viewpoint other than my own, as it is directly evidenced, even in this thread, that not only do I listen, I also respond to what was actually stated, instead of either deliberately misconstruing to change the terms of the discussion in one's favor or simply failing to comprehend what was read, as I've observed from you.
No possible error in the perspective I have presented has been substansively dismissed as an error. It isn't enough for you to simply say I am wrong and leave it at that, and if you don't understand why that is, you have a long way to go before you can approach any discussion of ideas in a productive, honest manner.
Quote:
I don't think you're right, I think you're wrong. I'm not resigning to anything, except that debate with you is pointless.
I know you think I'm wrong, and I also know you have not went any length to effectively demonstrate that I am wrong. Your debating with me is pointless if you can't actually substantiate how I am wrong. When I substantiate my claims that you are the one who is wrong, you do not respond to the basis for my claims that I present, and you do not go to any length to demonstrate how it is that I am wrong.
It is no failing of my own that you have thus far demonstrated no ability to actually discuss the ideas presented. Surely if you were capable of supporting your position in this discussion, you would have done so, instead of making all these excuses as to why I am to blame for your not discussing the topic at hand.
Quote:
Politics is beyond you.
No it isn't.
Quote:
You are a philosopher, and thus absolutely unable to state anything simply and clearly, and can only parse words and obfuscate until your opponent chokes on your own verbosity.
Yes, because reality is always so simple as "a presidental candidate can only affect change if they are elected", or "if the newsletter has its name on it then its verified that they wrote the newsletter themselves".
My substantiation for my ideas and my refutation of yours is sorcery and trickery, dash it! I would think that the appeal to authority you produced earlier, college degrees and all that, should have been more than enough to equip you with the ability to navigate through what I've said in this thread and successfully engage in substantiated discussion, but I guess it was nothing but another excuse to avoid personal responsibility for supporting one's viewpoints...
Quote:
I'm done.
I appreciate the half-effort you put into this discussion, most of which was focused on my personal nature instead of the actual ideas being discussed.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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For anyone who wants to know the real Ron Paul, I'm posting the most comprehensive viewpoint of who he is and the ideals he stands for, expressed in a very clear, effective way by Dr. Paul himself. I fully welcome anyone to listen to what he has to say and criticize the ideas he stands for in this thread. It would be refreshing to debate ideas instead of excuses for once.
The audio for the first minute or so in the first video is kind of distorted, likely due to technical problems from the satellite link-up. This is from two days ago. The ways in which he is capable of demonstrating how his perspective on single issues correspond to all of the issues our country is facing today serves as evidence that his perspective on reality is thorough and an accurate representation of reality itself. The fact that most people think that they win the race by betting on the horse that wins it is tragic when one considers that what really matters is not their ability to campaign, which, to do succesfully, almost necessarily implies compromising one's integrity by pandering to powerful special interests that do not represent the ideals this country was founded upon, nor the American people, who most directly benefit from the flourishment of these ideas. Once again, the fact that Ron Paul has been so successful, simply due to the support of the American people is very inspiring, and hopefully this country has not damned by itself to the point that this movement which has just begun very strongly won't be able to continue progress towards saving it.
My favorite part, I think, which refers directly to the above sentiment, is when Ron Paul states that this country will stop interfering in the internal affairs of other nations, either voluntarily, or as a result of our losing the means to do so through the economic collapse of this country, due to the policy of doing so in the first place. Hopefully it will be the former, to avoid the needless suffering of a lot of people in this country, but, either way, it needs to happen, because the rest of the world is ready to move on without the United States and its empire of subsidization, coercion, and intervention.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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John Nada
Toujours Frais

Registered: 03/03/03
Posts: 97,746
Loc: Hotwings; race car
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Luckily he won't win, and it's all a puppet show anyway, but it's quite disturbing that such supposed "open minded" people will spit in the face of reason just to uphold beliefs they've already invested in.
Oh and fireworks_god, you can admit you think blacks are inferior, you and Ron Paul don't have to hide behind this thin veil.
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WhiskeyClone
Not here


Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: John Nada]
#7976855 - 02/04/08 08:30 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
paradis said:
Oh and fireworks_god, you can admit you think blacks are inferior, you and Ron Paul don't have to hide behind this thin veil.
Come on man, that's a bit ridiculous.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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John Nada
Toujours Frais

Registered: 03/03/03
Posts: 97,746
Loc: Hotwings; race car
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#7976863 - 02/04/08 08:33 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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How the fuck is it ridiculous? Search for the word "nigger" under "fireworks_god" in the search feature, and you can see the
You know, I don't even know why the fuck I came back to this cesspool. Full of a bunch of racist pieces of shit
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WhiskeyClone
Not here


Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: John Nada]
#7976894 - 02/04/08 08:52 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
paradis said: You know, I don't even know why the fuck I came back to this cesspool. Full of a bunch of racist pieces of shit
If The Shroomery is a cesspool, you're just another turd.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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