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OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
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Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7968415 - 02/02/08 12:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No, many rational people believe the same thing.

*YOU* may not believe the evidence, but it is there.

People who are much more deeply in touch with the Nazi-Right than I surmise you are think he is.

And all he has done to deny it is say "That wasn't my fault."

Way to dismiss another argument by calling someone ignorant.

I'm sure you're winning converts to your cause left and right...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7968463 - 02/02/08 12:22 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I'm just saying that to try and say that people don't donate to political campaign to get someone elected is silly.

In the exact terms that you put it "in this thread nobody has...." it is true, but I think even you would admit that this is the motivation of most people.





I never said this either. :tongue:

Is there an interest in seeing the candidate people donate to elected? Certainly, but Ron Paul supporters continue to donate to Ron Paul even though most of the active supporters are well-aware of the nature of the situation and the odds that are being faced. Ron Paul himself addressed the grass-roots clearly stating that, while he can't rule anything out, as he couldn't have imagined this six months ago, this isn't about winning the nomination, but this is about the message, and getting it heard. Most supporters of Ron Paul aren't simply donating and campaigning for him because he's a great, interesting candidate, but because they are deeply concerned about the direction this country is heading in and they see him as the only man in a position to effect the greatest short-term change regarding this. 

Quote:


There are much more direct ways to affect change than by throwing money at a losing candidate that nobody cares about.




This is far too dismissive of a statement to have any real bearing. I'm looking forward to seeing the MTV/Myspace debate tonight, in which Ron Paul will be up there with Clinton, Obama, and Huckabee (Romney and McCain haven't confirmed yet). The field certainly has narrowed, hasn't it? Apparently Paul is cared about enough to be included.

Let me ask you, what is the difference between Kucinich and Paul? Money wisely invested in a successful candidate that people clearly have an interest in actively participating in a narrow field of candidates. The opportunity to continue to deliver the message like this pays off, the change is real and signfigant, even if some are willing to be oblivious to it.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7968497 - 02/02/08 12:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
No, many rational people believe the same thing.

*YOU* may not believe the evidence, but it is there.




No they don't, and there is no evidence, unless you care to cite it.

Quote:


People who are much more deeply in touch with the Nazi-Right than I surmise you are think he is.




Unsubstantiated nonsense; put up or shut up. Certain unknown people reaching certain conclusions isn't very substansive.

Quote:


And all he has done to deny it is say "That wasn't my fault."




Do you enjoy perpetuating complete bullshit? Ron Paul has taken personal responsibility for the fact that someone writing a newsletter in his name while he was completely absorbed in his medical practice in every single campaign he has ran. Unless you care to cite specific statements, the statements themselves weren't even that horrible.

Fact is, there is nothing that points towards Ron Paul as being a racist, but since you are supporting the claim, put the fuck up.

Quote:


Way to dismiss another argument by calling someone ignorant.




I asked if he was blatantly misinformed. Assuming that Ron Paul is racist because of a sliver of a minority of his supporters are is nonsense.

Quote:


I'm sure you're winning converts to your cause left and right...




Someone who baselessly pronounces that Ron Paul is a racist isn't convertable, not even a medical operation could accomplish that. I'm not here to win you over; I'm here to debate.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7968498 - 02/02/08 12:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:



I never said this either.




Yes, you did.

Quote:


Futile to get him elected? No one has proposed in this thread that donating to his presidental campaign was in attempt to get him elected, although hopefully it will happen anyways




But I don't want to argue semantics. I hear what you're saying about donating because you think he's a great guy, but how do you think he is going to affect the "greatest short-term change"?

What is the mechanism for this? By *talking* about it? You can talk about a problem until you are blue in the face, but that never solved anything. Occasionally, its necessary to actually *DO* things to bring about change.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleJohn NadaDiscord
Toujours Frais
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Registered: 03/03/03
Posts: 97,746
Loc: Hotwings; race car
Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7968525 - 02/02/08 12:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
So, essentially, you are blatantly uninformed?




Nah. Essentially, you seem to be a racist yourself though, so I'm betting that you wouldn't even mind him being a racist, regardless.


On the internet drug sites, it's cool to be a racist, but if you say something about gays people get more upset by that. Further evidence that most racists are cock sucking faggots


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OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
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Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7968579 - 02/02/08 12:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:


No they don't, and there is no evidence, unless you care to cite it.




Its been posted and discussed here ad nauseum. The only thing you need to do is read the things that were said, and in who's personal newsletter they were said.

I know you believe that Ron Paul had nothing to do with. I think this is obvious nonsense.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, you are a fanatic.

I'm just putting it out there so others can come to their own conclusions.

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Unless you care to cite specific statements, the statements themselves weren't even that horrible.




Yeah, okay Buddy...

Quote:

Ron Paul said:

"King [MLK Jr], the FBI files show, was not only a world class adulterer, he also seduced underage girls and boys. And we are suppose to honor this "Christian minister" and lying socialist satyr with a holiday that puts him on par with George Washington?"




Quote:

Ron Paul said:

"I miss the closet. Homosexuals, not to speak of the rest of society, were far better off when social pressure forced them to hide their activities."




Quote:

Ron Paul said:

"I've been told not to talk, but these stooges don't scare me. Threats or no threats, I've laid bare the coming race war in our big cities. The federal-homosexual cover-up on AIDS (my training as a physician helps me see through this one.) The Bohemian Grove--perverted, pagan playground of the powerful.




Does that sound like it was written by a random guy?

"My training as a physician?"

Get your head out of the sand, either the guy is a racist and a homophobe now or he was in the past...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleStein
Stranger
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Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 35,129
Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7968786 - 02/02/08 01:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Ron Paul said:

"King [MLK Jr], the FBI files show, was not only a world class adulterer, he also seduced underage girls and boys. And we are suppose to honor this "Christian minister" and lying socialist satyr with a holiday that puts him on par with George Washington?"




Quote:

Ron Paul said:

"I miss the closet. Homosexuals, not to speak of the rest of society, were far better off when social pressure forced them to hide their activities."




Quote:

Ron Paul said:

"I've been told not to talk, but these stooges don't scare me. Threats or no threats, I've laid bare the coming race war in our big cities. The federal-homosexual cover-up on AIDS (my training as a physician helps me see through this one.) The Bohemian Grove--perverted, pagan playground of the powerful.




Does his website take Mastercard or Visa?


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7968823 - 02/02/08 01:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Neither, both are Communist plots to send the entire countries wealth to China.

His campaign only accepts donations in "Ron-Dollars" which you can find...Well...Fuck, good luck.



--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7968879 - 02/02/08 02:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Due to the nature of Paul fans who I have met with, I no longer believe I will be voting for him. I am more knowledgeable on the topic of politics than 90% of them, but as soon as I disagree with one of them, I am ignorant.

I'll probably just vote Libertarian again.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Redstorm]
    #7969821 - 02/02/08 06:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I am more knowledgeable on the topic of politics than 90% of them, but as soon as I disagree with one of them, I am ignorant.




No, no, no.... not ignorant, brainwashed. Get the terminology right, dammit!




Phred


--------------------


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Offlineundergrounder
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Phred]
    #7972136 - 02/03/08 09:23 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Didn't someone say this thread was only going to be sticked for 24 hours?


--------------------
:igor: RIP :igor:

Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
:pinkshroom: :supershroom: :mushroom2: :shroomer: :mushroom2: :supershroom: :pinkshroom:


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: undergrounder]
    #7972263 - 02/03/08 10:15 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ythan is a Paulnut too, I imagine it'll stay up awhile...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7972464 - 02/03/08 11:18 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I'm just saying that to try and say that people don't donate to political campaign to get someone elected is silly.




Quote:

fireworks_god said:
I never said this either. :tongue:




Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Yes, you did.

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Futile to get him elected? No one has proposed in this thread that donating to his presidental campaign was in attempt to get him elected, although hopefully it will happen anyways.




But I don't want to argue semantics.





No, I didn't. There is a clear difference between the statement "people don't donate to a presidental campaign to get a candidate elected" and "no one has proposed in this thread that donating to his campaign was in attempt to get elected". Did I say in the original post that I was advocating donating to the presidental campaign in order to get him elected? No. Did I say that some people don't donate to a presidental campaign to get a candidate elected? No.

I'm sure you don't want to argue semantics, because then you would have to admit that the concept I have proposed is clearly distinct from the moron statement you wish I had said. I'm sure its easier to debate some moron arguement that was never presented than what I have actually proposed, so I guess I don't blame you for being lazy. :shrug:

The fact is that most Ron Paul supporters continue to participate because they are dedicated to the movement and the proliferation of understanding that Ron Paul stands for. The fact is that I clearly stated in this thread that I was advocating those who understand this movement and are sympathetic to the cause donate in order to futher it.

Then, to top it off, you've clearly acted under the impression that I created this thread to win over people like you and individuals that declare Ron Paul is a vehement racist, as is most people who use drugs, based upon comments akin to "Oh look you're doing such a fine job of winning people to your cause". :lol: Sometimes it might be better to not try to make someone else look like a fool when you don't understand what is being discussed. :wink:

Quote:


I hear what you're saying about donating because you think he's a great guy, but how do you think he is going to affect the "greatest short-term change"?

What is the mechanism for this?  By *talking* about it?  You can talk about a problem until you are blue in the face, but that never solved anything.  Occasionally, its necessary to actually *DO* things to bring about change.




Running for president is doing something. Participating in debates is doing something. Doing interviews in the media in which your ideas are presented and exchanged is doing something. Campaigning to bring attention of the American people to your ideas is doing something. Motivating people to become active in furthering the cause is doing something.

The notion that an individual that is running for President can only affect change by actually getting elected is demonstrated to be false, but I'm sure you will make up something else I never stated or implied to continue trying to portray me in a negative manner. :lol: I was reading what I assume to be the most recent issue of U.S. News And World Report, in which they covered great moments in campaign history. Please review:

Quote:


Presidential campaigns do more than just send a chief executive to the White House. They also illuminate social trends and define issues, explain where America has come from and where it is headed, and generate more than their share of triumph and tragedy—and even a fair bit of comedy in between.




Clear evidence that not everyone thinks in such simplified terms, and that reality certainly doesn't exist within these terms. The idea that I would propose that supporters donate to further the movement, and not with the notion that doing so will actually get Ron Paul elected, or the notion that some donate with an intent of furthering the movement, is not to be dismissed.

Some people understand that reality is a much more dynamic process than "Me Presidental Candidate. Me run for President. Me Lose, Me No Bring Change". :imslow:

I didn't state that he is going to affect the greatest, short-term change, I clearly stated that most Ron Paul supporters see Ron Paul as being in a position to affect the greatest, short-term change regarding the ideas and issues that he stands for.

This isn't semantics, this is reading-comprehension. God forbid someone who tells another they need some could ever actually be right. :smirk:

I'll pretend you asked a question relevant to what I actually said. Most Ron Paul supporters see him in this position because he is the only prominent figure in the public spotlight (yes, he is a prominent figure in the public spotlight, get over it) that is calling attention to these issues, they recognize how the action he has taken has brought forth change in themselves, and they realize the benefits of giving him what he needs to continue the campaign, in the hopes that his doing so will bring others to become aware of what he is speaking of and possibly begin creating change themselves.

I know it must be unsettling to be told that you need to learn to effectively read and comprehend what someone else says, and I'm sure it is much easier to lambast someone for saying so instead of coming to terms with the fact that you need to in order to successfully participate in the discussion of the ideas presented.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7972469 - 02/03/08 11:20 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, another thread where you tell me I cannot read.

Please, stop.

I have two college degrees as quite a few people here can attest. I'm not fucking stupid.

Stop acting like I am.

I'm not even responding to that.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
Male


Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 61,024
Loc: the sky
Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7972493 - 02/03/08 11:27 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I love empanadas.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7972497 - 02/03/08 11:29 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OneLessForeskin said:
I love empanadas.




--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


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Posts: 24,855
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7973063 - 02/03/08 01:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Its been posted and discussed here ad nauseum.




In honest, effective debate, ideas are either posted for consideration in the discussion itself, or sources are cited so that they may be reviewed and discussed. Otherwise, the claims are unsupported and not to be considered.

Quote:


  The only thing you need to do is read the things that were said, and in who's personal newsletter they were said.




:lol:

Ahh, if only reality were that simple. Fortunately, there are investigative reporters that actually seek understanding, instead of relying on such simple, illogical conclusions. :smirk:

Quote:

http://www.reason.com/news/show/124426.html

Ron Paul doesn't seem to know much about his own newsletters. The libertarian-leaning presidential candidate says he was unaware, in the late 1980s and early 1990s, of the bigoted rhetoric about African Americans and gays that was appearing under his name. He told CNN last week that he still has "no idea" who might have written inflammatory comments such as "Order was only restored in L.A. when it came time for the blacks to pick up their welfare checks"—statements he now repudiates. Yet in interviews with reason, a half-dozen longtime libertarian activists—including some still close to Paul—all named the same man as Paul's chief ghostwriter: Ludwig von Mises Institute founder Llewellyn Rockwell, Jr.

Financial records from 1985 and 2001 show that Rockwell, Paul's congressional chief of staff from 1978 to 1982, was a vice president of Ron Paul & Associates, the corporation that published the Ron Paul Political Report and the Ron Paul Survival Report. The company was dissolved in 2001. During the period when the most incendiary items appeared—roughly 1989 to 1994—Rockwell and the prominent libertarian theorist Murray Rothbard championed an open strategy of exploiting racial and class resentment to build a coalition with populist "paleoconservatives," producing a flurry of articles and manifestos whose racially charged talking points and vocabulary mirrored the controversial Paul newsletters recently unearthed by The New Republic. To this day Rockwell remains a friend and advisor to Paul—accompanying him to major media appearances; promoting his candidacy on the LewRockwell.com blog; publishing his books; and peddling an array of the avuncular Texas congressman's recent writings and audio recordings.

Rockwell has denied responsibility for the newsletters' contents to The New Republic's Jamie Kirchick. Rockwell twice declined to discuss the matter with reason, maintaining this week that he had "nothing to say." He has characterized discussion of the newsletters as "hysterical smears aimed at political enemies" of The New Republic. Paul himself called the controversy "old news" and "ancient history" when we reached him last week, and he has not responded to further request for comment.

But a source close to the Paul presidential campaign told reason that Rockwell authored much of the content of the Political Report and Survival Report. "If Rockwell had any honor he'd come out and I say, ‘I wrote this stuff,'" said the source, who asked not to be named because Paul remains friendly with Rockwell and is reluctant to assign responsibility for the letters. "He should have done it 10 years ago."

Rockwell was publicly named as Paul's ghostwriter as far back as a 1988 issue of the now-defunct movement monthly American Libertarian. "This was based on my understanding at the time that Lew would write things that appeared in Ron's various newsletters," former AL editor Mike Holmes told reason. "Neither Ron nor Lew ever told me that, but other people close to them such as Murray Rothbard suggested that Lew was involved, and it was a common belief in libertarian circles."

Individualist-feminist Wendy McElroy, who on her blog characterized the author as an associate of hers for many years, called the ghostwriter's identity "an open secret within the circles in which I run." Though she declined to name names either on her blog or when contacted by reason, she later approvingly cited a post naming Rockwell at the anonymous blog RightWatch.

Timothy Wirkman Virkkala, formerly the managing editor of the libertarian magazine Liberty, told reason that the names behind the Political Report were widely known in his magazine's offices as well, because Liberty's late editor-in-chief, Bill Bradford, had discussed the newsletters with the principals, and then with his staff. "I understood that Burton S. Blumert was the moneybags that got all this started, that he was the publisher," Virkkala said. "Lew Rockwell, editor and chief writer; Jeff Tucker, assistant, probably a writer; Murray Rothbard, cheering from the sidelines, probably ghosting now and then." (Virkkala has offered his own reaction to the controversy at his Web site.) Blumert, Paul's 1988 campaign chairman and a private supporter this year, did not respond to a request for an interview; Rothbard died in 1995. We reached Tucker, now editorial vice president of Rockwell's Mises.org, at his office, and were told: "I just really am not going to make a statement, I'm sorry. I'll take all responsibility for being the editor of Mises.org, OK?"

The early 1990s writings became liabilities for Paul long before last week's New Republic story. Back in 1996, Paul narrowly eked out a congressional victory over Democrat Lefty Morris, who made the newsletters one of his main campaign issues, damning them both for their racial content and for their advocacy of drug legalization. At the time, Paul defended the statements that appeared under his name, claiming that they expressed his "philosophical differences" with Democrats and had been "taken out of context." He finally disavowed them in a 2001 interview with Texas Monthly, explaining that his campaign staff had convinced him at the time that it would be too "confusing" to attribute them to a ghostwriter.

Besides Ron Paul and Lew Rockwell, the officers of Ron Paul & Associates included Paul's wife Carol, Paul's daughter Lori Pyeatt, Paul staffer Penny Langford-Freeman, and longtime campaign manager Mark Elam (who has managed every Paul congressional campaign since 1996 and is currently the Texas coordinator for the presidential run), according to tax records from 1993 and 2001. Langford-Freeman did not respond to interview requests as of press time. Elam, president of M&M Graphics and Advertising, confirmed to reason that his company printed the newsletters, but said that the texts reached him as finished products.

The publishing operation was lucrative. A tax document from June 1993—wrapping up the year in which the Political Report had published the "welfare checks" comment on the L.A. riots—reported an annual income of $940,000 for Ron Paul & Associates, listing four employees in Texas (Paul's family and Rockwell) and seven more employees around the country. If Paul didn't know who was writing his newsletters, he knew they were a crucial source of income and a successful tool for building his fundraising base for a political comeback.

The tenor of Paul's newsletters changed over the years. The ones published between Paul's return to private life after three full terms in congress (1985) and his Libertarian presidential bid (1988) notably lack inflammatory racial or anti-gay comments. The letters published between Paul's first run for president and his return to Congress in 1996 are another story—replete with claims that Martin Luther King "seduced underage girls and boys," that black protesters should gather "at a food stamp bureau or a crack house" rather than the Statue of Liberty, and that AIDS sufferers "enjoy the attention and pity that comes with being sick."

Eric Dondero, Paul's estranged former volunteer and personal aide, worked for Paul on and off between 1987 and 2004 (back when he was named "Eric Rittberg"), and since the Iraq war has become one of the congressman's most vociferous and notorious critics. By Dondero's account, Paul's inner circle learned between his congressional stints that "the wilder they got, the more bombastic they got with it, the more the checks came in. You think the newsletters were bad? The fundraising letters were just insane from that period." Cato Institute President Ed Crane told reason he recalls a conversation from some time in the late 1980s in which Paul claimed that his best source of congressional campaign donations was the mailing list for The Spotlight, the conspiracy-mongering, anti-Semitic tabloid run by the Holocaust denier Willis Carto until it folded in 2001.

The newsletters' obsession with blacks and gays was of a piece with a conscious political strategy adopted at that same time by Lew Rockwell and Murray Rothbard. After breaking with the Libertarian Party following the 1988 presidential election, Rockwell and Rothbard formed a schismatic "paleolibertarian" movement, which rejected what they saw as the social libertinism and leftist tendencies of mainstream libertarians. In 1990, they launched the Rothbard-Rockwell Report, where they crafted a plan they hoped would midwife a broad new "paleo" coalition.

Rockwell explained the thrust of the idea in a 1990 Liberty essay entitled "The Case for Paleo-Libertarianism." To Rockwell, the LP was a "party of the stoned," a halfway house for libertines that had to be "de-loused." To grow, the movement had to embrace older conservative values. "State-enforced segregation," Rockwell wrote, "was wrong, but so is State-enforced integration. State-enforced segregation was not wrong because separateness is wrong, however. Wishing to associate with members of one's own race, nationality, religion, class, sex, or even political party is a natural and normal human impulse."

The most detailed description of the strategy came in an essay Rothbard wrote for the January 1992 Rothbard-Rockwell Report, titled "Right-Wing Populism: A Strategy for the Paleo Movement." Lamenting that mainstream intellectuals and opinion leaders were too invested in the status quo to be brought around to a libertarian view, Rothbard pointed to David Duke and Joseph McCarthy as models for an "Outreach to the Rednecks," which would fashion a broad libertarian/paleoconservative coalition by targeting the disaffected working and middle classes. (Duke, a former Klansman, was discussed in strikingly similar terms in a 1990 Ron Paul Political Report.) These groups could be mobilized to oppose an expansive state, Rothbard posited, by exposing an "unholy alliance of 'corporate liberal' Big Business and media elites, who, through big government, have privileged and caused to rise up a parasitic Underclass, who, among them all, are looting and oppressing the bulk of the middle and working classes in America."


Anyone with doubts about the composition of the "parasitic Underclass" could look to the regular "PC Watch" feature of the Report, in which Rockwell compiled tale after tale of thuggish black men terrifying petite white and Asian women. (Think Birth of a Nation crossed with News of the Weird.) The list of PC outrages in the February 1993 issue, for example, cited a Washington Post column on films that feature "plenty of interracial sex, and nobody noticing," a news article about black members of the Southern Methodist University marching band "engaged in mass shoplifting while in Japan," and a sob story about a Korean shop-owner who shot a black shoplifter and assailant in the head: The travesty is that Mrs. Du got five years probation, and must cancel a trip to Korea.

The populist outreach program centered on tax reduction, abolition of welfare, elimination of "the entire 'civil rights' structure, which tramples on the property rights of every American," and a police crackdown on "street criminals." "Cops must be unleashed," Rothbard wrote, "and allowed to administer instant punishment, subject of course to liability when they are in error." While they're at it, they should "clear the streets of bums and vagrants. Where will they go? Who cares?" To seal the deal with social conservatives, Rothbard urged a federalist compromise in their direction on "pornography, prostitution, or abortion." And because grassroots organizing is "plodding and boring," this new paleo coalition would need to be kick-started by "high-level, preferably presidential, political campaigns."

The presidential campaign Rothbard and Rockwell supported in 1988 was Ron Paul's run on the Libertarian Party ticket. In 1992, they were again ready to back Paul, until Pat Buchanan convinced the obstetrician to withdraw and back his conservative challenge to then-president Bush. "We have a dream," Rockwell wrote in that same January 1992 edition of RRR, "and perhaps someday it will come to pass. (Hell, if 'Dr.' King can have a dream, why can't we?) Our dream is that, one day, we Buchananites can present Mr. and Mrs. America, and all the liberal and conservative and centrist elites, with a dramatic choice....We can say: 'Look, gang: you have a choice, it's either Pat Buchanan or David Duke.'"

Carol Moore, a left-libertarian activist who opposed Rothbard, Rockwell, and Paul at the late 1980s Libertarian conventions that led to the paleo split, theorizes that the defeat made them bitter. "They had a tendency to be anti-PC," Moore told reason, "and it was really stepped up after they lost. They were really angry and not that funny."

They are less angry these days. Visitors to LewRockwell.com or Mises.org since 2001 are less likely to feel the need for a shower. One can almost detect what sounds like mellowing in Rockwell's reflections on the high and heady paleo days, unburdened by ominous warnings of the looming race war. Nowadays the fiery rhetoric is directed at the "pimply-faced" Kirchick, "Benito" Giuliani, and the "so-called 'libertarians'" at reason and Cato.

But perhaps the best refutation of the old approach is not the absence of race-baiting rhetoric from its progenitors, but the success of the 2008 Ron Paul phenomenon. The man who was once the Great Paleolibertarian Hope has built a broad base of enthusiastic supporters without resorting to venomous rhetoric or coded racism. He has stuck stubbornly to the issues of sound money, "humble foreign policy," and shrinking the state. He wraps up his speeches with a three-part paean to individualism: "I don't want to run your life," "I don't want to run the economy," and "I don't want to run the world." He talks about the disproportionate effect of the drug war on African-Americans, and appeared at a September 2007 Republican debate on black issues that was boycotted by the then-frontrunners. All this and more have brought him $30 million-plus from more than 100,000 donors; thousands of campaign volunteers; and the largest rallies he's ever spoken to, including a crowd of almost 5,000 in Philadelphia.

Yet those new supporters, many of whom are first encountering libertarian ideas through the Ron Paul Revolution, deserve a far more frank explanation than the campaign has as yet provided of how their candidate's name ended up atop so many ugly words. Ron Paul may not be a racist, but he became complicit in a strategy of pandering to racists—and taking "moral responsibility" for that now means more than just uttering the phrase. It means openly grappling with his own past—acknowledging who said what, and why. Otherwise he risks damaging not only his own reputation, but that of the philosophy to which he has committed his life.





Quote:


I know you believe that Ron Paul had nothing to do with.  I think this is obvious nonsense.




Yet another failure of reading comprehension. I clearly stated that there is no evidence that Ron Paul is a vehement racist. You cited the newsletters as evidence; I've demonstrated that the claim that these were not his words is valid and substansive. Ron Paul was involved with his medical practice at the time, and a ghost-writer confirmed by Ron Paul has been pointed to by numerous relevant sources as being responsible, further evidenced by his own work later on that continued to perpetuate the ideas in question.

The real question is to which degree Ron Paul was aware of the statements. He may have known nothing of what was said, or he may have known but was complicit, as it was acheiving political goals. Regardless, my statement was that there was no evidence that Ron Paul was a vehement racist, and, as there is no evidence regarding Ron Paul's knowledge and personal feelings regarding the statements, for which exists evidence that he did not personally write these statements, nothing can be concluded as to whether or not he is a vehement racist, from the newsletters.

In fact, in consideration of the plethora of statements and stances that can be directly attributed to Ron Paul, it would seem evident that he is not. This is given credence when one considers that the NAACP chapter president in Austin, who has shared a personal relationship with Ron Paul for twenty years, has testified that he is not a racist. It is hard to imagine that a prominent black figure would continue a relationship with or stand up for Ron Paul if there was any sign that he was a vehement racist. Furthermore, Walter E. Williams, a black professor, endorsed Ron Paul for President and was suggested as a possible running mate by Ron Paul. It is hard to imagine a vehement racist pronouncing interest in selecting a black man as his running mate for Vice President. :lol:

Quote:


I'm not trying to convince you of anything, you are a fanatic.




A fanatic? I've clearly expressed my line of reasoning and provided substantation for my claims, which is far more than you can say for yourself. :tongue:

Quote:


Yeah, okay Buddy...




Ahh, I should have been more specific, as I have not reviewed all of the statements from the newsletters. I was keeping in mind statements concerning how some people in the gay community are proud to have AIDS and seek it out (which was in reference to an article at the time by the Rolling Stone that cited as much), as well as the quote about Martin Luther King, which is substantiated by reports from agents who surveilled him, an autobiography by Ralph Abernathy that purportedly confirms some of these claims (haven't read it), to the fact that the bulk of the FBI files which contain direct evidence from surveillance regarding MLK were sealed until 2027 while the rest was released.

Anyways, my statement was made in response to the notion that the newsletters confirmed that Ron Paul was a vehement racist, which, even if the words were his, is not displayed within them, and I have no interest in defending the statements themselves.

Quote:


Does that sound like it was written by a random guy?

"My training as a physician?"




:rofl2:

Its a damn shame that the ghost-writer didn't type "My training as a construction worker". :lol: I can't imagine a ghost-writer would make it sound as though they were writing as the person they are pretending to be. :smirk:



Quote:


Get your head out of the sand, either the guy is a racist and a homophobe now or he was in the past...




No, reality confirms that there are other alternatives to these limited conclusions to be drawn. Of course, had you sought to produce any sort of confirmation or substantiation for your baseless claims, you might have considered this possibility.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7973106 - 02/03/08 01:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Yes, another thread where you tell me I cannot read.

Please, stop.




I'll stop when you demonstrate that you can. It wasn't another thread, it was another post within a thread. Furthermore, I did not suggest that you cannot read, but questioned your ability to comprehend what I wrote. Not only did I tell you as much, but I also cited direct evidence supporting my claim.

Quote:


I have two college degrees as quite a few people here can attest.




This is an appeal to authority, which is a logical fallacy. The simple fact that you have two college degrees does not refute my specific claims that you have, in certain instances, failed to comprehend what was presented, which is why it is a fallacy to make it seem as though it does.

Quote:


Stop acting like I am.




Demonstrate that you aren't by refuting my evidence to the contrary.

Quote:


I'm not even responding to that.




I'll take this as a resignation, which is fortunate, because I have little interest in continuing this further and have only done so to provide to others that your assessment of my behavior is baseless and that there does exist a way in which ideas can actually be exchanged in a substansial manner. It is not surprising that you won't respond, because a lot of people are not willing to admit that they were wrong.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: undergrounder]
    #7973118 - 02/03/08 01:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

undergrounder said:
Didn't someone say this thread was only going to be sticked for 24 hours?




I don't believe anyone said as much in this thread, but my request was for it to be stickied for one day. Geokills stated when he did so that he wouldn't be around to unsticky it. I'll notify the mods to request the admins de-sticky it, as it has run its course. :smile:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides


Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7973169 - 02/03/08 01:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

paradis said:
I'm pretty sure Ron Paul is a vehement racist. Stormfront.org fuckin loves that guy




So, essentially, you are blatantly uninformed?




No, they really do love the guy.


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