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WhiskeyClone
Not here


Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Middleman]
#7967916 - 02/02/08 08:58 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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There is corruption no doubt, but that is no reason not to vote.
I just don't believe the corruption could be as thorough as those websites claim. If it was that blatantly obvious, why was a bigger deal not made of it? Surely voters on in both parties would not accept a democratic system whose failures are so apparent. With the sheer volume of anti-Bush sentiment, why are his detractors arguing about public policy rather than the voting system? If it were my country I would make a huge deal about it. So would everybody I know. I assumed Americans were not all that different from us. Did I give them too much credit?
I'm not willing to spend my saturday morning trying to debunk them, but suffice it to say that even if everything on those pages is true, the number of people who were able to rationalize staying home on election day would have constituted enough votes to overcome even that level of fraud.
I think the lifestyle choices you were describing are a more effective way of transforming the country, but voting in the general election -- even if it is as you describe -- is hardly an inconsequential act.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#7967983 - 02/02/08 09:41 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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There definitely is corruption, and dirty tricks have been quite apparent in this election as well, but it certainly isn't as though the voting system is entirely rigged. It is simply a question of individual states and their methods of collecting votes. The simple fact is, people are voting for Hillary Clinton and John McCain. The real tragedy here is not vote fraud, but the role the corporate media plays in affecting how people vote, which is no one's fault but the people themselves.
What is refreshing to see is American people informing themselves and realizing the nature of the reality around them. The real question isn't regarding whether it is too late to elect Ron Paul, but the real question is whether it is too late to save this country from a collapse.
I think this country needs some serious election reform. I think the media should be barred from reporting anything about anything until the people have decided who their President is.
It'd also be nice to see the removal of the party system. Can anyone provide an understanding as to how the party system has ever benefited this country?
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#7967985 - 02/02/08 09:42 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Did you read the whole Rolling Stone article? Everything in it is true.
It is BEYOND BELIEF what the Bush administration has gotten away with.
I'm still voting on principle, but I swear the whole thing is a sham.
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idiotek


Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 40,728
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: Thanks for the analysis of my personal nature; you're completely wrong, but at least you're trying.
Because you said I am wrong, I must be. Hence, your entire method of "debate" - along with a shallow arsenal of cheeky smileys and interchangeable condescensions.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Middleman]
#7968010 - 02/02/08 09:50 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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The federal government itself is the sham. They've superceded your individual rights and the rights of the state by implementing the federal income tax. Everyone gets upset at Congress for pork-barrel spending, but they are simply sent in by their state to try to get some of their money back. A trillion dollars from the American people so they can ruin our economy, remove our wealth, threaten our security, and take away our rights as human beings?
The sad thing is that this is why this country was founded upon in the first place, and here it is again. The tragic thing is that there is no New World to escape to this time. The political framework of this country is the most suitable for the American people to choose their own government, yet most are so conditioned to the way things are that they never question it, and, if they do, they never act. Its unfortunate that so many people are going to suffer in this country when the inevitable rears itself upon America, but at least this country won't be able to impose its dominant will on the rest of the world.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Stein
Stranger


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 35,129
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Is Ron Paul gonna run as an independent?
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idiotek


Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 40,728
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Stein]
#7968036 - 02/02/08 10:00 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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If he's smart, he'll ride the GOP bandwagon long enough to reap whatever exposure it will get for him until he loses the nomination - which is inevitable and practically undeniable if you look at his poll numbers - and then run as an independent in hopes that the people who were jaded by the results of his unsuccessful GOP candidacy will show up in high enough numbers to compete with the two major parties.
Essentially, in doing so, what he will do is ruin any chance that we will see anyone other than a hardcore neocon in office in the next election. The key issue in this election is the war in Iraq and our foreign policy. Thus, he will divide the voters who are pro-withdrawal between the democrats and his libertarian supporters.. lending strength in the numbers of the other 50% of voters who will inevitably buy into the GOP/neoconservative Imperialistic horse shit about maintaining a presence/not giving up/letting the bad guys win/we can win if we stick it out and drop a vote for whoever the GOP nominee will be - probably McCain.
The only other issue that may make a difference is the impending doom of a recession.. that's sort of a wild card at this point though.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: idiotek]
#7968060 - 02/02/08 10:07 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
1d10t3k said: Because you said I am wrong, I must be. Hence, your entire method of "debate" - along with a shallow arsenal of cheeky smileys and interchangeable condescensions.
Oh, you must have forgot that it is impossible to have a substansive debate regarding the personal nature of others in an Internet forum. You have no way of proposing a substantiated idea regarding my personal nature; thus, no debate can exist.
The statement that I am incapable of considering another perspective if it doesn't immediately agree with my own cannot be demonstrated to be true, because that which I consider is not evident in how I choose to respond. Consideration is an internal process that does not exist within external action.
Your statement regarding my personal nature is just as validated as my assertion that your assessment of my personal nature is incorrect, which is to say that neither of them have any basis. For you to conclude that my response to your assessment is representative of my method of debate is irrelevant, as it is not true debate that is being engaged in.
I cannot demonstrate that I do consider perspectives that do not automatically agree with my own perspectives, but, alas, neither can you, and as you are the individual making the claim, the burden of proof lies with you. There may be any number of motivations for myself to exhibit certain behavior, and you certainly don't seem to be any sort of psychologist. 
Of course, it is also incorrect for you to summarize my "entire" method of debate as consisting of what you listed, since, clearly, I am also capable of proposing ideas relevant to the topic at hand. As those who have made effort to whine about my usage of emoticons and attitude in regards to themselves have not addressed any ideas proposed to counter their own perspectives on the topic at hand, it might be safe to conclude that this particular aspect of my debate technique is hard to stand up to.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: Stein]
#7968075 - 02/02/08 10:10 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stein said: Is Ron Paul gonna run as an independent?
If you two go vote for him on Tuesday, he won't need to. I'm not sure if your state is an open primary or if you can register right before you vote, I've been meaning to check.... if you can't vote for him, its my fault.
Ron Paul won't run as an Independent.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Or everyone is sick of your snarky bullshit.
I know the former option would be better for your massive ego, but the latter is closer to the truth.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: idiotek]
#7968096 - 02/02/08 10:19 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
1d10t3k said: If he's smart, he'll ride the GOP bandwagon long enough to reap whatever exposure it will get for him until he loses the nomination - which is inevitable and practically undeniable if you look at his poll numbers - and then run as an independent in hopes that the people who were jaded by the results of his unsuccessful GOP candidacy will show up in high enough numbers to compete with the two major parties.
It isn't a question of his intelligence, as he is documented to be a brilliant campaigner. He crippled the entire GOP machines efforts in '96, from President Bush to Governor Bush, at the height of their power, after they tried to oust him from Congress for not towing the party line. The real question is the means with which he has to campaign, as well as the odds that he is up agansit. He has personally stated that it would take $100 million for him to be able to approach an independent run, so as long as one of those speculatated billionaires doesn't actually manifest, there will be no Independent run.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: Or everyone is sick of your snarky bullshit.
I know the former option would be better for your massive ego, but the latter is closer to the truth.
You never replied to my ideas regarding my coming way out of left field on that assessment... They must have been too snarky.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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idiotek


Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 40,728
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
1d10t3k said: Because you said I am wrong, I must be. Hence, your entire method of "debate" - along with a shallow arsenal of cheeky smileys and interchangeable condescensions.
Oh, you must have forgot that it is impossible to have a substansive debate regarding the personal nature of others in an Internet forum. You have no way of proposing a substantiated idea regarding my personal nature; thus, no debate can exist.
The statement that I am incapable of considering another perspective if it doesn't immediately agree with my own cannot be demonstrated to be true, because that which I consider is not evident in how I choose to respond. Consideration is an internal process that does not exist within external action.
Your statement regarding my personal nature is just as validated as my assertion that your assessment of my personal nature is incorrect, which is to say that neither of them have any basis. For you to conclude that my response to your assessment is representative of my method of debate is irrelevant, as it is not true debate that is being engaged in.
I cannot demonstrate that I do consider perspectives that do not automatically agree with my own perspectives, but, alas, neither can you, and as you are the individual making the claim, the burden of proof lies with you. There may be any number of motivations for myself to exhibit certain behavior, and you certainly don't seem to be any sort of psychologist. 
Of course, it is also incorrect for you to summarize my "entire" method of debate as consisting of what you listed, since, clearly, I am also capable of proposing ideas relevant to the topic at hand. As those who have made effort to whine about my usage of emoticons and attitude in regards to themselves have not addressed any ideas proposed to counter their own perspectives on the topic at hand, it might be safe to conclude that this particular aspect of my debate technique is hard to stand up to.
That was far wordier than was necessary and you know it - just like you know when you're being condescending, patronizing, and insulting. You're just too wrapped up in that security blanket ego of yours to see the forest for the trees. You'd rather belittle anyone who doesn't join your Ron Paul circle jerk than drop the soap box preaching tactics and look at the situation for what it is.
If Ron Paul was a brilliant political strategist he'd say what he knows people want to hear in order to get their votes and then he would do what he knows is the best course of action for the nation - essentially, he'd be a true politician and lie through his teeth.
If he isn't going to run as an independent then he does not stand a chance at coming close to the Presidency. His views, regardless of how they may reflect the Republicans of old, are not shared by the mainstream neoconservatives of today that form the majority of the GOP. This is reflected in the numbers, and will surely be the conclusion of Super Tuesday. He will not get the Republican nomination - he is simply too radical for the status quo Republican ideals.
This is why it is a futile effort for average-income American supporters of Ron Paul to pour money into his campaign - it's obvious that he can't win. It doesn't matter what the principles are of why you should vote for him, or what he stands for. That isn't the point and hasn't been the point of mainstream American politics for a LONG time. The entire system is fundamentally flawed and until something is done to curtail the influence of media outlets and corporate lobbyists we won't see the sort of change that Ron Paul stands for. It's good that he's getting a lot of these ideas out there and in the minds of people who are willing to consider them.. but from the looks of things he simply doesn't have the charisma or the support from high profile celebrities/news organizations/donors that the other candidates have.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: idiotek]
#7968254 - 02/02/08 11:22 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
1d10t3k said: That was far wordier than was necessary and you know it
No, that's just how I have been conditioned to discuss after years of active debate in P&S, but you may feel free to read into everything what you wish and assign meaning as you intend to do so.
Quote:
- just like you know when you're being condescending, patronizing, and insulting.
What's your point? Do you know when you are continuing to harp on about trivial matters that are not the topic for discussion? When someone creates a new thread that is promoting a cause, including a line of reasoning for why the cause transcends his chances for receiving the Republican nomination, and someone responds simply with "there is no reason to throw money into a blackhole", I'm not concerned if my response has occasional condescending or insulting tones to it.
Of course, there is always a few people who embrace the opportunity to emerge from the woodwork and continue on with some stupid "this is who you are" campaign.
Quote:
You're just too wrapped up in that security blanket ego of yours to see the forest for the trees. You'd rather belittle anyone who doesn't join your Ron Paul circle jerk than drop the soap box preaching tactics and look at the situation for what it is.
Who have I belittled but three individuals with whom I share a history of sparring?
Of course, I'd be happy for you to tell me your take on "the situation for what it is". What are you talking about... my nature, this thread, RP?
Quote:
If Ron Paul was a brilliant political strategist he'd say what he knows people want to hear in order to get their votes and then he would do what he knows is the best course of action for the nation - essentially, he'd be a true politician and lie through his teeth.
Ron Paul is a brilliant political strategist - the fact that he has accomplished this much without sacrificing his integrity is a testament to the movement that is occuring in this country, which is what this thread was about in the first place (I'm glad to see you've decided to discuss a topic of substance in this thread).
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If he isn't going to run as an independent then he does not stand a chance at coming close to the Presidency.
"Close" is relative; he certainly has come pretty damned close to the Presidency considering that he is one of six contenders still in the race. As a reluctant candidate who is the most atypical politican in the national spotlight, the fact that he has come this close is incredible. Once again, this isn't about his being elected as President.
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His views, regardless of how they may reflect the Republicans of old, are not shared by the mainstream neoconservatives of today that form the majority of the GOP. This is reflected in the numbers, and will surely be the conclusion of Super Tuesday. He will not get the Republican nomination - he is simply too radical for the status quo Republican ideals.
This is all plainly evident and recognized by myself personally prior to this post of yours. If this statement of yours is regarding your previous one, then I'm not sure how you've concluded that I'm not seeing it for what it is. 
Quote:
This is why it is a futile effort for average-income American supporters of Ron Paul to pour money into his campaign - it's obvious that he can't win.
Futile to get him elected? No one has proposed in this thread that donating to his presidental campaign was in attempt to get him elected, although hopefully it will happen anyways. Maybe if you had spent more time reading the vast majority of what I said, instead of the occasional remark and emoticon, you would have conserved your energy and invested it in better activities than enlightening me.
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It doesn't matter what the principles are of why you should vote for him, or what he stands for. That isn't the point and hasn't been the point of mainstream American politics for a LONG time. The entire system is fundamentally flawed and until something is done to curtail the influence of media outlets and corporate lobbyists we won't see the sort of change that Ron Paul stands for.
This is about the movement itself, which has a rippling effect on these flaws. I'm not going to take the time right now to reference all of the examples in which Ron Paul's campaign has positively influenced change in regards to these flaws already, not to mention how it has empowered many to take action themselves. The fact that Ron Paul's campaign exists today is the greatest indicator that the influence of corporate media outlets is waning. Ron Paul's continued presence in the campaign is as a point of awareness that brings understanding and change. The longer he campaigns, especially as fewer and fewer other candidates campaign, the more opportunities those who are influenced more by the mainstream media have a chance to wake up. Ron Paul is a seed.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: Futile to get him elected? No one has proposed in this thread that donating to his presidental campaign was in attempt to get him elected, although hopefully it will happen anyways.
Most people who donate to a political campaign are doing it to get someone elected so they can affect actual change, rather than "Pie-in-the-sky" idealistic flights of fancy.
I know the money I donate to B-Rock is certainly for the purpose of getting him elected. If I wanted to donate money to buy someone a blimp, I'd give my money to Goodyear.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Just want to highlight my agreement that this is indeed not just about the presidency.
As small or large as one might think the Ron Paul movement is, it is taking the form of something that hasn't happened in this country since perhaps the pro-peace movement during the war on Vietnam. People are mobilizing a political effort that is not inspired by the cultural mainstream, but that comes from the niches of every-day life itself and is popularizing itself through the vast reaches of the internet. This does leave me to wonder sometimes which medium is the true peoples' voice, the television, or the keyboard..
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Donating to Ron Paul is affecting actual change, even if he doesn't get elected President. The nature of reality isn't limited to such an incredibly narrow viewpoint as that. Do you understand how democracy works? Also, no money donated to Ron Paul's campaign went to a blimp.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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I'm just saying that to try and say that people don't donate to political campaign to get someone elected is silly.
In the exact terms that you put it "in this thread nobody has...." it is true, but I think even you would admit that this is the motivation of most people.
There are much more direct ways to affect change than by throwing money at a losing candidate that nobody cares about.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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John Nada
Toujours Frais

Registered: 03/03/03
Posts: 97,746
Loc: Hotwings; race car
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I'm pretty sure Ron Paul is a vehement racist. Stormfront.org fuckin loves that guy
All the drug culture internet people seem to love him as well though. Kinda scary actually.
Of course, I guess most of the online drug culture people are vehement racists as well though. Even acid dropping hippies
God I hate them/you people, fuckin faggots.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Donate Today For Freedom! [Re: John Nada]
#7968405 - 02/02/08 12:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
paradis said: I'm pretty sure Ron Paul is a vehement racist. Stormfront.org fuckin loves that guy
So, essentially, you are blatantly uninformed?
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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