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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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X is depressing
#7960070 - 01/31/08 12:51 PM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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Note: this may be one of my more important topics. While nothing in here is new, this subject cannot be stressed enough.
'X' = some fact, person or thing.
'is depressing' may be substituted with any other reaction or emotional state linked to said fact such as 'is annoying' or 'is frustrating' or 'really pisses me off' and so on.
This is a spin-off thread where in a vending machine 'caused' a depressive state in one poster. However, a vending machine has the attributes of height, depth, width, mass, color(s), material makeup, and so on, but 'depressive' is NOT an attribute of the object, but a specific reactionary state chosen (consciously or unconsciously) by the viewer.
Part of the problem is verbal shorthand which fails to create any distance between object and viewer.
A much more accurate statement than "X is depressing" would be, "When I view X through my personal biases, I choose a depressive state as a viable response." In the first statement the two are equivocal, in the second there is a cause and one possible effect selected out of a near-infinite number of possible responses including a null reaction.
This is a fine example of neurosis as reality seeks to elicit no particular response nor is the response anywhere to be found in the object.
Grok?
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AnastomosisJihad
Hominid



Registered: 01/01/08
Posts: 700
Loc: Ohio
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Quote:
I choose a depressive state as a viable response.
I don't think one's emotional response to an art work is merely a choice. Certain images are naturally associated with emotions. Advertising is all about this kind of thing.
-------------------- come together
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WhiskeyClone
Not here


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Quote:
AnastomosisJihad said:
Quote:
I choose a depressive state as a viable response.
I don't think one's emotional response to an art work is merely a choice. Certain images are naturally associated with emotions. Advertising is all about this kind of thing.

Given that humans are reactive creatures, there are some stimuli that are going to produce a similar reaction in just about everybody. If somebody asks me if Requiem for a Dream is a disturbing film, I'm probably going to go ahead and say yes, even if I'm just projecting my emotional reaction onto it, verbal accuracy be damned.
I guess it's helpful to be aware of when we are projecting though. Good point, OC.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:A much more accurate statement than "X is depressing" would be, "When I view X through my personal biases, I choose a depressive state as a viable response."
conscious reaction/creation is good 
turn off the television, don't let the television turn you off
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
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E-prime?
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Jackenobi
Hermes



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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Note: this may be one of my more important topics. While nothing in here is new, this subject cannot be stressed enough.
'X' = some fact, person or thing.
'is depressing' may be substituted with any other reaction or emotional state linked to said fact such as 'is annoying' or 'is frustrating' or 'really pisses me off' and so on.
This is a spin-off thread where in a vending machine 'caused' a depressive state in one poster. However, a vending machine has the attributes of height, depth, width, mass, color(s), material makeup, and so on, but 'depressive' is NOT an attribute of the object, but a specific reactionary state chosen (consciously or unconsciously) by the viewer.
Part of the problem is verbal shorthand which fails to create any distance between object and viewer.
A much more accurate statement than "X is depressing" would be, "When I view X through my personal biases, I choose a depressive state as a viable response." In the first statement the two are equivocal, in the second there is a cause and one possible effect selected out of a near-infinite number of possible responses including a null reaction.
This is a fine example of neurosis as reality seeks to elicit no particular response nor is the response anywhere to be found in the object.
Grok?
These writings appear to me to be a wonderful kind of mini academic trip. The weight of truth always makes for a good experience, all the more so for their clear self evidence.
-------------------- read books
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Quote:
Given that humans are reactive creatures, there are some stimuli that are going to produce a similar reaction in just about everybody.
If we stick with the stimuli of film imagery, similar reactions will still only be found in a narrow select target audience.
Will images of hot young babes cavorting on the beach and drinking beer have the same affect on an old man as a young man? The same affect on a person from a culture that despises alcohol or who believes a woman's body should be covered? Certainly not!
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gluke bastid
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Yes I grok this fully as recent events of a very weak but "bad trip" has put me on a cycle of intense contemplation that seems to be resulting in an overall nihilism.
If you look at people's personalities as nothing more than a complex network of fantasies aimed at interpreting reality in a certain light (which is what was revealed to me during this trip), you begin to question your reaction to everyone and everything. People read what they want to into everything. From relationships to art to politics to the environment. I came to the conclusion that "love" for another person is merely based on what you fantasize that person to be and what they represent for you. The reality is that our anxieties and our joys are abitrary. Reality has no positive or negative nature. If we could see it for what it is, we would see nothing. No positive, no negative, no past or present or future or time at all. Just an expanse of moving particles, indistinguishable from each other, stretching for eternity in all directions.
I was not happy, although maybe ready, to discover this. I have been feeling very nihilistic these days. I perceive reality to have no meaning, to be like a blank canvas, and I am having trouble painting a world for myself because I feel like all of my life's emotions and motivations have just been a stew of neuroses. I keep asking myself where to go from here, but if my observations have been correct, there's nowhere to go at all.
I can't help but find this depressing, or at least non-motivating.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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You almost got 'there'. The end result is not nothing, but freedom.
You plan a picnic with some friends. It starts raining and several comment about how the 'day was ruined' by the weather, but not you! You are free to find joy or bliss or excitement or beauty or whatever you so choose in the rain. You are not limited by a precanned, robotic response.
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AnastomosisJihad
Hominid



Registered: 01/01/08
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-------------------- come together
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DimensionX
King of Birds


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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
You plan a picnic with some friends. It starts raining and several comment about how the 'day was ruined' by the weather, but not you! You are free to find joy or bliss or excitement or beauty or whatever you so choose in the rain. You are not limited by a precanned, robotic response.
That is what ive always seen as the ultimate goal of Buddhism.
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: You almost got 'there'. The end result is not nothing, but freedom.
You plan a picnic with some friends. It starts raining and several comment about how the 'day was ruined' by the weather, but not you! You are free to find joy or bliss or excitement or beauty or whatever you so choose in the rain. You are not limited by a precanned, robotic response.
well said OC.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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At first, I thought this post was about Ecstasy.
I agree with you 100%. We choose to be depressed, though it might not be a conscious choice. In fact, the more unconscious one is, the more likely it is that our habitual thoughts will lead to anger and depression.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
This is a spin-off thread where in a vending machine 'caused' a depressive state in one poster.
I'm flattered that my off-the-cuff comment regarding weed vending machines was so glaringly flawed that it deserved its own thread in which to be critiqued. Seriously. 
Of course your criticism is completely apt.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Re: X is depressing [Re: Veritas]
#7962725 - 01/31/08 11:10 PM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: This is a spin-off thread where in a vending machine 'caused' a depressive state in one poster.
They can also cause bruising.... 

Quote:
Veritas said:
At first, I thought this post was about Ecstasy.
That's the hook....! 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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porcupine
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Note: this may be one of my more important topics. While nothing in here is new, this subject cannot be stressed enough.
'X' = some fact, person or thing.
'is depressing' may be substituted with any other reaction or emotional state linked to said fact such as 'is annoying' or 'is frustrating' or 'really pisses me off' and so on.
This is a spin-off thread where in a vending machine 'caused' a depressive state in one poster. However, a vending machine has the attributes of height, depth, width, mass, color(s), material makeup, and so on, but 'depressive' is NOT an attribute of the object, but a specific reactionary state chosen (consciously or unconsciously) by the viewer.
Part of the problem is verbal shorthand which fails to create any distance between object and viewer.
A much more accurate statement than "X is depressing" would be, "When I view X through my personal biases, I choose a depressive state as a viable response." In the first statement the two are equivocal, in the second there is a cause and one possible effect selected out of a near-infinite number of possible responses including a null reaction.
This is a fine example of neurosis as reality seeks to elicit no particular response nor is the response anywhere to be found in the object.
Grok?
this post reminds me very strongly of concepts found in buddhism.
i think the logical question to ask is, if we understand this then why do we continue to experience reality as if X caused our state of mind? the answer given in the buddhist literature i read is that the unconsciouss mind (this is probably the wrong terminology but i can't remember the original terminology) is so quick to respond that it happens in a matter of miliseconds and we fail to catch it. by training the mind, it supposedly possible to put an end to this and that's one of the aims of practising buddhism.
however if anyone has had actual success with doing this i would like to know about it.
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porcupine
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Re: X is depressing [Re: porcupine]
#7963177 - 02/01/08 01:25 AM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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"I came to the conclusion that "love" for another person is merely based on what you fantasize that person to be and what they represent for you."
i have come to the same conclusion. i want to post more on this but its late and i have to be up for work tomorrow, so goodbye for now.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: X is depressing [Re: porcupine]
#7963789 - 02/01/08 08:08 AM (16 years, 18 hours ago) |
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Quote:
porcupine said: "I came to the conclusion that "love" for another person is merely based on what you fantasize that person to be and what they represent for you."
I strongly disagree, but a detailed response would be entirely off-topic for this thread. Perhaps I'll start one of my own...
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gluke bastid
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Re: X is depressing [Re: Veritas]
#7963933 - 02/01/08 08:51 AM (16 years, 18 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
porcupine said: "I came to the conclusion that "love" for another person is merely based on what you fantasize that person to be and what they represent for you."
I strongly disagree, but a detailed response would be entirely off-topic for this thread. Perhaps I'll start one of my own...
No it wouldn't.
Please discuss.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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gluke bastid
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: You almost got 'there'. The end result is not nothing, but freedom.
But if "depressing" is nothing, than "freedom" is nothing. What is the difference between freedom and nothing? I don't see one. By realizing that the nature of reality is an infinite nothing, how does that make one free? It seems like you are free to make one of two choices, you can either jump back into the fantasy that life has any meaning at all and go through cycles of suffering or joy(both totally artificial), or you can see reality for what it is (nothing) and just wait around to die.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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backfromthedead
Activated


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'I keep asking myself where to go from here, but if my observations have been correct, there's nowhere to go at all.'
Welcome home. Ain't it grand??
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
AnastomosisJihad said:
Quote:
I choose a depressive state as a viable response.
I don't think one's emotional response to an art work is merely a choice. Certain images are naturally associated with emotions. Advertising is all about this kind of thing.
If you are correct then everyone will get the same emotional response from a given work of art. I don't think this is the case. While the choice you make may not be a conscious one I believe it is still your subjective choice. Advertising doesn't always have the desired effect on me.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (02/01/08 12:41 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Quote:
or you can see reality for what it is (nothing)
Which is more interesting and indicative of free-will: a preprogrammed purpose or fate (a paint-by-numbers); or a blank canvas wherein you choose and design your own destiny?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Popeye and Bluto falling in love
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



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^ "who, me?"
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Haha Pluto totally kicks ass.  Thought I doubt he'd hang out with Popeye, he has spinach
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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WhiskeyClone
Not here


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Olive Oyl would not be pleased
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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She never is
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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WhiskeyClone
Not here


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Haha true...
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



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I think this calls for an old-timer clip:
Parlez Vous Woo.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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That was obviously from the times Popeye and Bluto were playing with each other...
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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porcupine
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Quote:
gluke bastid said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: You almost got 'there'. The end result is not nothing, but freedom.
But if "depressing" is nothing, than "freedom" is nothing. What is the difference between freedom and nothing? I don't see one. By realizing that the nature of reality is an infinite nothing, how does that make one free? It seems like you are free to make one of two choices, you can either jump back into the fantasy that life has any meaning at all and go through cycles of suffering or joy(both totally artificial), or you can see reality for what it is (nothing) and just wait around to die.
when i said i wanted to post more, this is essentially the idea which i wanted to convey.
if you see X for what it is and stop choosing to experience the response it usually illicits, then what value does anything have? for example, someone might say "i watch futurama because it is funny". but if you jump out of the fantasy and stop allowing what you see to illicit responses within you, then how is watching futurama preferable to watching a blank wall? everything just becomes a boring meaningless perception. at least this is what happened to me when i thought this way. there was no love, no laughter, just the same constant blank state of mind all the time where i was merely observing my physical body respond to stimuli in ways appropriate for survival. i don't think that's what the buddha meant when he preached enlightenment, because if it is, why bother preaching it? fantasy is better, or if not better then at least just as good. in the world of fantasy at least there are things to get excited about, games to play, even if they are just make believe.
what if illusion is intentional? what if one day god got bored and so he decided to create an elaborate illusion which we call life and trick little parts of himself into thinking it was real so they could experience something amazing which would simply not be possible to experience if they knew the full truth of things?
Edited by porcupine (02/01/08 11:18 PM)
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impgl
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i thought this was going to be about E
-------------------- omg really?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: X is depressing [Re: impgl]
#7967944 - 02/02/08 09:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Then I would have titled it 'E is depressing'. See my thread on 'Thoughts vs. Thinking'...
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: X is depressing [Re: porcupine]
#7968083 - 02/02/08 10:13 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
porcupine said:there was no love, no laughter, just the same constant blank state of mind all the time where i was merely observing my physical body respond to stimuli in ways appropriate for survival. i don't think that's what the buddha meant when he preached enlightenment, because if it is, why bother preaching it? fantasy is better, or if not better then at least just as good.
this is where creation comes into play. once our unconscious/subconscious reactions are realized and brought into consciousness we have the ability to create how we feel about our interactions with the world. joy is not fantasy, it is a feeling - feelings are more real than any concept, and it can be created through heightening awareness and creating space within our conditioning.
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gluke bastid
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Re: X is depressing [Re: porcupine]
#8013033 - 02/12/08 12:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
porcupine said:
Quote:
gluke bastid said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: You almost got 'there'. The end result is not nothing, but freedom.
But if "depressing" is nothing, than "freedom" is nothing. What is the difference between freedom and nothing? I don't see one. By realizing that the nature of reality is an infinite nothing, how does that make one free? It seems like you are free to make one of two choices, you can either jump back into the fantasy that life has any meaning at all and go through cycles of suffering or joy(both totally artificial), or you can see reality for what it is (nothing) and just wait around to die.
when i said i wanted to post more, this is essentially the idea which i wanted to convey.
if you see X for what it is and stop choosing to experience the response it usually illicits, then what value does anything have? for example, someone might say "i watch futurama because it is funny". but if you jump out of the fantasy and stop allowing what you see to illicit responses within you, then how is watching futurama preferable to watching a blank wall? everything just becomes a boring meaningless perception. at least this is what happened to me when i thought this way. there was no love, no laughter, just the same constant blank state of mind all the time where i was merely observing my physical body respond to stimuli in ways appropriate for survival. i don't think that's what the buddha meant when he preached enlightenment, because if it is, why bother preaching it? fantasy is better, or if not better then at least just as good. in the world of fantasy at least there are things to get excited about, games to play, even if they are just make believe.
what if illusion is intentional? what if one day god got bored and so he decided to create an elaborate illusion which we call life and trick little parts of himself into thinking it was real so they could experience something amazing which would simply not be possible to experience if they knew the full truth of things?
Good reply. It reminds me of something Burroughs wrote once...that he was fundamentally oppossed to Buddhism or any school of thought that aimed to lessen the intensity of either suffering or joy. His spin was that you should actually do what you can to increase both, because that is where life took place.
I used to scoff at him, but the current existential crisis that I am in that is preventing me from feeling anything and is getting in the way of my sex life and creative life and relationship with my firends and girlfriend has me thinking he may be on to something.
All I know is that ever since I perceived my personality as an elaborate hoax, I have taken off the hoax suit but have been unable to replace it. I just feel a huge gaping hole where all the passion and dreams and love used to be. I really have no idea who I am. A man? I don't feel like that means anything.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Boots
Disenchanted


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Quote:
AnastomosisJihad said:
Quote:
I choose a depressive state as a viable response.
I don't think one's emotional response to an art work is merely a choice. Certain images are naturally associated with emotions. Advertising is all about this kind of thing.
Yea, but emotional response isn't inherent from birth; it's learned.
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mushbaby
woodswalker




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Loc: in my own lil world
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This actually sounds like an important time in your life Gluke. This is where you shed all the debris you picked up along the road of life and can make a conscious choice on what sort of man you want to be.
Back to the original thought in this thread. I am an optimist, my husband is a pessimist. In any given circumstance we will almost always have opposite reactions. Here's an example, last week we went to dinner. The transmission gasket in my car had just been replaced. After dinner we go out and find a large puddle of tranny fluid under the car. Now no one is happy about it (myself included) but where he went off thinking he just wasn't meant to have a good night and eventually got so upset he made himself sick, my response was "I'm glad we found it and were able to put more fluid in it to get it home without ruining the transmission."
It's all in a person's attitude or outlook.
Oh and I just can't help myself here, "Freedom's just another word for nothing else to lose" sound familiar anyone?
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gluke bastid
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Re: X is depressing [Re: mushbaby]
#8021414 - 02/14/08 08:38 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushbaby said: This actually sounds like an important time in your life Gluke. This is where you shed all the debris you picked up along the road of life and can make a conscious choice on what sort of man you want to be.
I guess that is a good point, however I can't get over the fact that all of my relationships with people who I love are sufferring. I don't want to think of my girlfriend in particular, who I have thought about proposing to many times, as "debris." Yet if I can't get out of this cycle of introverted, paranoid madness she is going to move on and I won't be able to blame her.
I've never been so unable to approach life with passion before.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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backfromthedead
Activated


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'...this cycle of introverted, paranoid madness...'
Do you mind explaining more about what you're going through??
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum



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I don't even know how to explain it to myself, although it feels very bad. It has to do with a bad trip that wasn't intense but has unleashed a pandora's box of existential crises that seem to be growing. I am have come to see the personality I have worn my entire life as an elaborate lie towards myself. My strongest remaining desire is to shed my self-concious, self-obsessed nature and stand naked within the world. Ironically, all of the attention that I am drawing to my self-conciousness is making its grasp on me stronger and harder to escape. I have convinced myself that I am fundamentally flawed, and don't know how to un-convince myself. I don't know how to be confidant and engaged around my friends. Simple conversations have become difficult for me because the self-conciousness is so out of control. Nights lying in bed with my girlfriend, which used to be utter bliss, are now total nightmares in which I try to hide my self-conciousness from her and pretend to be independent and ok.
This crisis has an overwhelmingly ironic nature in that any attempt to overcome my paranoid self-hating self-conciousness on my own terms brings more attention to it. And yet so does being open about it with people. If I try and be honest with people who I am close with about what I am going through, I become even more self-concious about it. Do you see? I have nowhere to turn with this. It is like a demon that is swallowing me whole.
The only good coping method I have found is to go for long walks by myself. Which is fine, but I worry if I continue to isolate myself I am going to lose people who are important to me.
Before long I am going to have to seek some sort of professional help.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Two words: volunteer work. Do it ASAP.
Focusing on someone else that is struggling will shift your center and tend to quiet your mind.
Nothing is wrong with you except for out-of-control thoughts that need to be tamed. You don't need to hide nor pretend nor runaway.
Meditate on the part of you that is most sane instead of the part that is most unbalanced.
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum



Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
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Ok thanks, I'll try that.
And I apologize for derailing your thread.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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backfromthedead
Activated


Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,592
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Benedryl helps to chill me out. I know I have felt exactly the same. Feels like you are burning.
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