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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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An Eye for an Eye....
#7956786 - 01/30/08 05:34 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Acceptable as a means of dealing with unpleasantness forced upon another, or a complete hypocritical way of reasoning a revenge....?
Why....?
>^;;^>
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Cubie
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7956800 - 01/30/08 05:37 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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An eye for an eye should be implemented into our law. That way we could not be imprisoned for eating mushrooms
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Cubie]
#7956806 - 01/30/08 05:38 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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No. An eye for an IS the reason why we go to jail for eating mushrooms.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Cubie
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Who is that an even punishment?
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Fugai
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7956858 - 01/30/08 05:46 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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I think it is relating the belief that whatever you do you should be willing to have done to yourself. Akin to the philosophy of Karma. The word Karma means "action", and that is all it means. So I think and eye for an eye, is just saying an action for an action. I do think that whatever you do SHOULD be returned. Balance should be maintained But revenge is entirely different. It is a selfish action. It is done with your own feelings in mind, no one else's. Justice should be sought. But not for personal gratification.
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
#7956882 - 01/30/08 05:49 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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biblical revenge
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_ 🧠_
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prankster
the twin
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7956883 - 01/30/08 05:49 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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"An eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind." Gandhi
Pure logic.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
#7956901 - 01/30/08 05:52 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Justice should be sought. But not for personal gratification.
How would you define "justice"? Justice, it's nature is personal, it addresses to persons and it reacts in the same manner. Case in which it means that it must have so sort of impersonal form. And I am asking you again: how so you see that happening? Like in practical terms. The exact same action can and is just for some and unjust for others. It all comes down to which side the law decides to incline and it suddenly becomes acceptable.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Should actions of violence and such just be forgiven and left "unpunished" - given that the person has a history for such unneeded actions towards others....?
Do we not pluck weeds from our gardens for the detriment they do to the "good" plants....?
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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mushbaby
woodswalker




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Posts: 2,645
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: prankster]
#7956923 - 01/30/08 05:55 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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I like that quote Prankster. 
About the same thing, "Two wrongs don't make a right"
But it's difficult not to want to retaliate. Especially in extreme circumstances. I mean if someone hurt my child, I'd go to prison if need be to ensure they never hurt another child.
Even if you do believe in karma, isn't it possible that you could be the instrument karma uses to create balance?
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: prankster]
#7956927 - 01/30/08 05:57 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
prankster said: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind." Gandhi . Pure logic.
It is a cool logical twist on the words (only).... Not everyone pokes out the eyes of others (thus would not need an eye poked out in return)....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Fugai
Stranger


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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7957113 - 01/30/08 06:24 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Exactly. Not everyone goes around poking peoples eyes out. I have to say also (even though I'm sure I will be attacked for it) that Ghandi did not help anyone. I like the quote " Evil prevails when good men fail to act". Ghandi failed to act. Can anyone imagine a world where no-one fights back? I wonder what our world would be like right now if no-one had? I have always thought of violence as a sort of physical dialogue. Unfortunately some issues cannot be dealt with by debate. And the reason is, not everyone practices acceptance. The only thing we should not accept as a people is non-acceptance.
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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Fugai
Stranger


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Quote:
The exact same action can and is just for some and unjust for others. It all comes down to which side the law decides to incline and it suddenly becomes acceptable.
I usually try to compassionately debate others views respectfully. I am sorry that this struck a cord. But that is absolute bullshit!! That sort of pluralistic perspectivism is what leads to, for one thing, the abuse of millions of people based on religious beliefs. That we should accept any action that harms an inoccent person or curtails there own freedoms as a human being based on the fact that it is part of some belief system sickens me. What about the castration of young woman in Islam? Ancient religions had instances of human sacrifice, should we accept that? Another interpretation of what your saying would lead to the logical conclusion that Rape, Murder etcetera etcetera are acceptable depending on the persons perspective who is performing the act. Again, sorry, but bullshit That sort of thinking is also what leads to burglars filing law suits against residence because they fell on a knife while trying to break in. It has happened!
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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prankster
the twin
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7957236 - 01/30/08 06:54 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
PhanTomCat said:
Quote:
prankster said: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind." Gandhi . Pure logic.
It is a cool logical twist on the words (only).... Not everyone pokes out the eyes of others (thus would not need an eye poked out in return)....
>^;;^<
But everyone does something to hurt someone, intentional or not. When it escalates, you end up there. I recommend you read Brothers Karamazov.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
#7957253 - 01/30/08 06:59 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Fugai said: I have to say also that Gandhi did not help anyone. I like the quote " Evil prevails when good men fail to act". Gandhi failed to act.
But, he was being the change that he wanted to see....  Dood had some clever aphorisms, fo~ sho~.... 
Quote:
Fugai said: Can anyone imagine a world where no-one fights back? I wonder what our world would be like right now if no-one had?
If no one ever fought back (no one), there would never be any fights.... But, can you have that type of scenario with aggressors....?
Quote:
Fugai said: Unfortunately some issues cannot be dealt with by debate. And the reason is, not everyone practices acceptance. The only thing we should not accept as a people is non-acceptance.
Emotions generally escalate way to strong before a solution/compromise can be made.... Acceptance is not always the answer.... But, this is all without any real context....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: prankster]
#7957295 - 01/30/08 07:07 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
prankster said: But everyone does something to hurt someone, intentional or not. When it escalates, you end up there.
No, not everyone does something TO hurt someone.... It is semantics, but there is a difference.... Some people are just upset by words - which are HARMLESS (always within reason).... (assuming you are giving a general verbal exchange example).
If I call you a name and it hurts you, and you retaliate by calling me a name that doesn't hurt me, does it escalate....?
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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prankster
the twin
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7957314 - 01/30/08 07:12 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Exactly, it is semantics. But the point is if someone is hurt by you (on purpose or not) and follow the philosophy of an eye for an eye, then they will get back at you. Then you get back at them, they at you, etc.
If you don't call me a name back, then you didn't make me pay an eye for an eye. You raised above it. That's like saying Gandhi got beat in the face, but he didn't let it hurt him, so he didn't react.
I'm not so sure about this as I might sound though. Good points you made.
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Fugai
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7957345 - 01/30/08 07:22 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Apparently the change he wanted to see was indifference to oppression. Although, yes, it is admitable the man could coin a phrase. I absolutely disagree that if no-one ever fought back there would be no conflict. There will always be those who seek power over others. There will always be those who demand others live as they do, or believe as they do etcetera. And anyway, as it has been shown. Conflict/competition is integral to the evolution of any complex system (ie society). Of course emotions do lead to a lot of un-needed conflict. But thats not what I was referring to. Exactly as you say, acceptance is not always the answer. There are something we should not and cannot accept. But, yes, this is all without context.
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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Fugai
Stranger


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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: prankster]
#7957361 - 01/30/08 07:26 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Thats all a bit childish. Getting back (revenge/retribution) is entirely different than the notion of justice, or balance. Harm is not always completely subjective. Action for action, not word for word
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: prankster]
#7957364 - 01/30/08 07:27 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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This is an escalation of a fight you are talking about.... Getting to a point of physical violence from a starting point of words seems silly.... Not saying that it doesn't happen every day.... But, this stuff is ego driven pissing matches mostly....
I guess I was thinking more clear-cut contrast situations.... Like, a guy randomly goes out and causes violence/kills a frail harmless old woman for no reason, without any escalation or "real" reason.... Should she, her family, and community accept this and "hope" that it goes away and doesn't happen again....?
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Fugai
Stranger


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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7957400 - 01/30/08 07:34 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Getting to a point of physical violence from a starting point of words seems silly.... Not saying that it doesn't happen every day.... But, this stuff is ego driven pissing matches mostly....
That is exactly my point. In my opinion, in that context as you describe it, that man should die. Context is everything in ethical considerations
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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prankster
the twin
Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 96
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
#7957443 - 01/30/08 07:43 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Maybe you guys are right, I just don't know. I always liked this quote by Ken Kesey though:
You can't bomb for a humane reason. What we should do is just Mother Teresa them to death with love. It's that old hippie nonsense but it's still the best stuff there is.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
#7957470 - 01/30/08 07:49 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Fugai said: Context is everything in ethical considerations
Yes, and my opening post is flawed with vagueness....  Context is a major factor in determining any kind of "just" ethical consideration.... Which is slightly difficult, beings that reality has the "your side, my side, and the truth" POVs....
Weeds don't belong in a garden.... And a working structured society by it's very nature, is the building of a garden....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Fugai
Stranger


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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: prankster]
#7957481 - 01/30/08 07:51 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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don't worry prankster I'll defend you with my bombs when Mother theresa'ing doesn't work out.;)
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
#7957491 - 01/30/08 07:53 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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prankster
the twin
Registered: 04/25/07
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
#7957496 - 01/30/08 07:54 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Hahaha. Thanks. Tell Ayn Rand I said hello.
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Coaster
Baʿal



Registered: 05/22/06
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: prankster]
#7957547 - 01/30/08 08:00 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind...
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prankster
the twin
Registered: 04/25/07
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Coaster]
#7957562 - 01/30/08 08:02 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Are you sure?
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Coaster
Baʿal



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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: prankster]
#7957689 - 01/30/08 08:26 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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ya i saw it on a bumper sticker, so it must be true
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
#7957806 - 01/30/08 08:53 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Fugai said:
Quote:
The exact same action can and is just for some and unjust for others. It all comes down to which side the law decides to incline and it suddenly becomes acceptable.
I usually try to compassionately debate others views respectfully. I am sorry that this struck a cord. But that is absolute bullshit!! That sort of pluralistic perspectivism is what leads to, for one thing, the abuse of millions of people based on religious beliefs. That we should accept any action that harms an inoccent person or curtails there own freedoms as a human being based on the fact that it is part of some belief system sickens me. What about the castration of young woman in Islam? Ancient religions had instances of human sacrifice, should we accept that? Another interpretation of what your saying would lead to the logical conclusion that Rape, Murder etcetera etcetera are acceptable depending on the persons perspective who is performing the act. Again, sorry, but bullshit That sort of thinking is also what leads to burglars filing law suits against residence because they fell on a knife while trying to break in. It has happened!
So you are against punishing ("castration of young woman in Islam", "Ancient religions had instances of human sacrifice", rape, murder), but you are FOR punishing the punisher.  Let's assume that we somehow might be able to calculate all the possible consequences of our actions on everything and everyone, but how would that stand for incorruptibility? Perhaps it would be wiser to say that we will be able to talk and appreciate in terms like more or less preferable. Something else than that would mean there there is a generic and universal conduit for our behavior. And if you sustain the idea, please back it up.
Look, crimes are illegal, rapes are illegal. Does this stop people for thinking and making them? A moral stigma will never stop people from committing crimes (legal or illegal). Does the fact that weed or LSD are illegal stop you from consuming them? How does this make your crime more acceptable than murder, other than a subjective point of view, which can also be translated in crime elitism?  Of course, you could argue and say that... murder is worse than consuming drugs... but this is also as biased as it comes.  What I am arguing about is that this labeling that you use must be accepted and must not be accepted = is good and is bad. Labeling which obviously has no effect. I don't sustain that I have an answer regarding what might stop humans from committing rape or murder, but I do sustain that punishing just doesn't do the trick. And why should we focus our attention, consume our energy and money on things with no effect? And more to that, on things that DICTATE us a model by which we should live our lives?  And, from what I know and observed, many of our "problems" come from the fact that others try to impose their point of view in our lives, in our privacy, in our power and strength of decision.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Fugai
Stranger


Registered: 01/27/08
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Quote:
Something else than that would mean there there is a generic and universal conduit for our behavior. And if you sustain the idea, please back it up.
How about "Do no harm". And by the way con·duit –noun 1. a pipe, tube, or the like, for conveying water or other fluid. 2. a similar natural passage. 3. Electricity. a structure containing one or more ducts. 4. Archaic. a fountain. And "if I sustain the idea"? Really? Come of it. You can express your thoughts and opinions without trying to artificially sophisticate your dialectic, it sounds trite when you do.
Quote:
Does the fact that weed or LSD are illegal stop you from consuming them? How does this make your crime more acceptable than murder, other than a subjective point of view
Much more than just subjective. My crime does no harm to anyone. How dare you compare it to murder? Especially with a name like mushroomtrip! Is eating mushrooms akin to murder?
Quote:
which can also be translated in crime elitism?
You know, I really so hate to come to this conclusion, but you leave me no recourse. You have no idea what your talking about do you? What your saying doesn't make any sense at all. It's not even a real sentence! Despite the fact that your position is completely in-defensible, you can't even summon a workable vocabulary. examples:
Quote:
What I am arguing about is that this labeling that you use must be accepted and must not be accepted = is good and is bad
Quote:
And more to that, on things that DICTATE us a model by which we should live our lives
Quote:
And, from what I know and observed, many of our "problems" come from the fact that others try to impose their point of view in our lives, in our privacy, in our power and strength of decision.
Are you drunk?
Either way, I understand the idea your trying to get across even though you can't form complete sentences. Should we all just let these things happen? Should we turn a blind eye? Or not seek justice? Do you think Gacey or Dahmer, or Bundy would have stopped on their own? Do you think we should forgive these things? And if so, how many times? I would love to see you keep that point of view after having someone close to you murdered. Or god forbid after being raped yourself. You have to be aware, as are we all, that your own position is in-defensible and are just arguing for the sake of it. Either that or you are a complete fool.
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
#7958086 - 01/30/08 10:00 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Much more than just subjective. My crime does no harm to anyone. How dare you compare it to murder? Especially with a name like mushroomtrip! Is eating mushrooms akin to murder?
What the fuck does my name have to do with everything in this thread? Are you unable to make the difference between personal attacks and attacks towards an idea?  Ohhh, look... I DARE to compare one with the other.  Also it looks to me that you fail at thinking on the long run. How can you honestly state that you eating mushrooms can not hurt anyone? That's plain stupid.  You can hurt your family (especially if you go to prison for that), you can hurt the ones that care about you if you somehow have a bad trip and decide to hurt yourself or others, and the list could go on forever.  Also a murder can also have good long term effects. Wow, imagine that! 
Quote:
You know, I really so hate to come to this conclusion, but you leave me no recourse. You have no idea what your talking about do you? What your saying doesn't make any sense at all. It's not even a real sentence! Despite the fact that your position is completely in-defensible, you can't even summon a workable vocabulary. examples:
Showing flaws in my vocabulary dies not refute any on my ideas.  Niiice way to try to get out. Childish I might add. 
Quote:
Either way, I understand the idea your trying to get across even though you can't form complete sentences. Should we all just let these things happen? Should we turn a blind eye? Or not seek justice? Do you think Gacey or Dahmer, or Bundy would have stopped on their own? Do you think we should forgive these things? And if so, how many times? I would love to see you keep that point of view after having someone close to you murdered. Or god forbid after being raped yourself. You have to be aware, as are we all, that your own position is in-defensible and are just arguing for the sake of it. Either that or you are a complete fool.
Nice appeal to fear  You really suck at debate  What does: "I would love to see you keep that point of view after having someone close to you murdered. Or god forbid after being raped yourself. You have to be aware, as are we all, that your own position is in-defensible and are just arguing for the sake of it." proves? I'll tell you what it proves.  You just proved that punishing crimes is just a revenge act  Seek justice?  You still have not defined justice to me. And please, no more bull shit like: "it's not good" and "it's not bad" I already refuted all that for you. , unless you come up with a good argument to sustain the necessity of using "good" and "bad", which I would be really curious to hear.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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that's all i've got to add right now.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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You might share some popcorn you know?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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i'll give you a how about that?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Ahhh, thank you
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Fugai
Stranger


Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 80
Loc: Orygun
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
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good lets keep on, I don't mind believe me
Quote:
What the fuck does my name have to do with everything in this thread
I had thought it would be immediately apparent. You equated eating illegal substances with murder. Your name is mushroomtrip. Mushrooms are an illegal substance. You obviously eat mushrooms. You equated eating said substance with MURDER! I wouldn't think that I would have had to spell it out. And by the way, you probably meant " what does your name have to do with ANYthing in this thread" that would be the proper verbiage.
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Are you unable to make the difference between personal attacks and attacks towards an idea
Am I unable to make the difference??
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Ohhh, look... I DARE to compare one with the other
What?? You really are drunk aren't you?
OK, I'll stop pointing that kind of thing out. It is very hard to take either you and your position seriously, sorry We will focus on the issues I guess. That is IF I am able to surmise your meaning out of this drivel.
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How can you honestly state that you eating mushrooms can not hurt anyone? That's plain stupid. You can hurt your family (especially if you go to prison for that), you can hurt the ones that care about you if you somehow have a bad trip and decide to hurt yourself or others, and the list could go on forever
First of all thats absolute bullshit. And if you really believe all that, your a hypocrite. And by the way I didn't say it couldn't hurt anyone, what I said is that by my eating it I am not doing harm to anyone. And if someone hurts another person while under the influence, it is not the fault of the substance. But that is besides the issue. You equated it with murder! Yet your name is mushroomtrip!
Quote:
Also a murder can also have good long term effects. Wow, imagine that!
Are you serious?? That right there, aside from anything else you have said, COMPLETELY invalidates your point of view.
Quote:
You still have not defined justice to me. And please, no more bull shit like: "it's not good" and "it's not bad" I already refuted all that for you. , unless you come up with a good argument to sustain the necessity of using "good" and "bad", which I would be really curious to hear.
You haven't refuted anything. You haven't even summoned a workable vocabulary. And as a matter of fact, if you will review the posts I did define justice. I said it was balance. And I know I said I wouldn't do it again, but really it is ridiculous. Do you even pay attention to what your typing? I know you don't talk like that. A person with that severe of a handicap would not be using a computer at all. That whole paragraph makes no sense! Even the spell checker can't help you! And for you to tell me to summon something more substantial than "its good", I actually laughed out loud.
Someone else join the fray for gods sake. I can't be the only one willing refute your in-defensible and frankly offensive position.
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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Fugai
Stranger


Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 80
Loc: Orygun
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
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Damn you two. You know it's bullshit. But your happy spectating. At least share the popcorn;)
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
#7958366 - 01/30/08 10:49 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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but i ate it all.
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
#7958450 - 01/30/08 11:06 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Here, have some skittles.
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Fugai
Stranger


Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 80
Loc: Orygun
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Middleman]
#7958472 - 01/30/08 11:11 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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hell yeah, just in time
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
#7958504 - 01/30/08 11:16 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Fugai said:
Especially with a name like mushroomtrip! Is eating mushrooms akin to murder?
...Either that or you are a complete fool.
I just noticed this, getting a little personal there.
Please criticize ideas not members, thanks.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
#7958541 - 01/30/08 11:29 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
I had thought it would be immediately apparent. You equated eating illegal substances with murder. Your name is mushroomtrip. Mushrooms are an illegal substance. You obviously eat mushrooms. You equated eating said substance with MURDER! I wouldn't think that I would have had to spell it out. And by the way, you probably meant " what does your name have to do with ANYthing in this thread" that would be the proper verbiage.
Yes you have to spell it out because you make no sense. I am asking you again, what does my have have to do with what we were discussing? Other than the fact that I obviously eat mushrooms which doesn't mean shit to this subject. 
Quote:
Am I unable to make the difference??
Yes 
Quote:
First of all thats absolute bullshit. And if you really believe all that, your a hypocrite.

Quote:
And by the way I didn't say it couldn't hurt anyone, what I said is that by my eating it I am not doing harm to anyone. And if someone hurts another person while under the influence, it is not the fault of the substance. But that is besides the issue. You equated it with murder! Yet your name is mushroomtrip!
Yes, you made this thing pretty clear. And I am asking you again: so what? 
Quote:
Are you serious?? That right there, aside from anything else you have said, COMPLETELY invalidates your point of view.
Elaborate 
Quote:
You haven't refuted anything. You haven't even summoned a workable vocabulary. And as a matter of fact, if you will review the posts I did define justice. I said it was balance. And I know I said I wouldn't do it again, but really it is ridiculous. Do you even pay attention to what your typing? I know you don't talk like that. A person with that severe of a handicap would not be using a computer at all. That whole paragraph makes no sense! Even the spell checker can't help you! And for you to tell me to summon something more substantial than "its good", I actually laughed out loud.
Other that overusing personalisms you answered none of my questions.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
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Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7958569 - 01/30/08 11:35 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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The original question has too many variables involved. This is a lot more complex than simply yes or no.
I remember in "The Crucible" the one quote that always stuck with me was "life is God's most precious gift; no principle, however glorious may justify the taking of it" or something quite similar to that.
Equal punishment for a crime will not make anything better, but simply putting someone in a cell is not going to teach them the error of their ways.
I don't think my post contributed at all but I Just wanted to add in that quote.
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Fugai
Stranger


Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 80
Loc: Orygun
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Middleman]
#7958586 - 01/30/08 11:40 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Thats the part you pick out?  I wasn't calling her a fool. I was just saying it's one or the other Ah, it's not my style anyway, so I'll stop. Sorry, she struck a cord. You know you could have chimed in though. I refuse to believe I'm the only one here who disagrees with her summation that eating mushrooms is akin to murder and that some murders might actually have some long term benefit!
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
#7958602 - 01/30/08 11:44 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Fugai said: I wasn't calling her a fool. I was just saying it's one or the other
Hmmmm 
Quote:
Fugai said: And if you really believe all that, your a hypocrite.
Quote:
Fugai said: A person with that severe of a handicap would not be using a computer at all.
So, in your opinion, should liars get punished?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
#7958613 - 01/30/08 11:47 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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"That is a foolish idea." = acceptable.
"You are..." = fail, even if it's an either / or statement.
Quote:
Fugai said:
You know you could have chimed in though.
Thanks, but I'm on a debate-free diet. :MM pats belly:
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Fugai
Stranger


Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 80
Loc: Orygun
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
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I said I never called you a fool, and I didn't. I never said I didn't call you a hypocrite I'm sorry. Things got outta hand  But you are a hypocrite! Thats not an insult merely an observation. Your name is mushroomtrip, yet you equate eating mushrooms with murder? And you apparently do not see the inherent contradiction there. But in keeping with the wishes of the forum, I won't make such observations in the future. I was being maligned as well you know! And really, you can't even summon full complete legible sentence. You can't help but notice, I know you do! And I never said anything in this thread about punishment. In fact, I have not once used the word at all you'll find. In my opinion punishment has nothing to do with Justice, or balance. Both issues I was discussing. I will thank you not to call me a liar though!!
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
Edited by Fugai (01/31/08 12:05 AM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
#7958695 - 01/31/08 12:03 AM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Fugai said: And I never said anything in this thread about punishment. In fact, I have not once used the word at all you'll find.
No you did not specifically said it but you implied it:
Quote:
Should we all just let these things happen? Should we turn a blind eye? Or not seek justice? Do you think Gacey or Dahmer, or Bundy would have stopped on their own? Do you think we should forgive these things? And if so, how many times? I would love to see you keep that point of view after having someone close to you murdered. Or god forbid after being raped yourself. You have to be aware, as are we all, that your own position is in-defensible and are just arguing for the sake of it. Either that or you are a complete fool.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Fugai
Stranger


Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 80
Loc: Orygun
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Middleman]
#7958715 - 01/31/08 12:07 AM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Thanks, but I'm on a debate-free diet. :MM pats belly:
Should have guessed
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
#7958722 - 01/31/08 12:08 AM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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It's better that I don't debate and just sick to moderating, that way I don't get accused of being 'biased'.
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jackeheart
JackHeart


Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 27
Loc: Nevada City, CA
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Middleman]
#7958913 - 01/31/08 01:23 AM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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I am surprised that forgiveness has been hardly touched upon within this post. I saw it here by the original Poster PhanTomCat:
Quote:
Should actions of violence and such just be forgiven and left "unpunished" - given that the person has a history for such unneeded actions towards others....?
And here by Fugai's Famous statement which really sums up one side of the debate...I mean discussion:
Quote:
Should we all just let these things happen? Should we turn a blind eye? Or not seek justice? Do you think Gacey or Dahmer, or Bundy would have stopped on their own? Do you think we should forgive these things? And if so, how many times? I would love to see you keep that point of view after having someone close to you murdered. Or god forbid after being raped yourself. You have to be aware, as are we all, that your own position is in-defensible and are just arguing for the sake of it. Either that or you are a complete fool.
Who is the fool Fugal? One who can accept and forgive? Or one who lets these so self imposed morally wrong doing get to them, whether they seek revenge/justice by means of eye for an eye or worse, or just hold it with contempt in their hearts and minds?
One of the Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz is Don't Take anything personally. Our negative thoughts of justice (and I am going to imply the justice you would seek if somebody close to you was killed, raped. etc, use your imagination) Is just a reflection of the fear within ourselves, of what we are capable of. By seeking revenge we are committing the crime that was sought onto us.
If I had to choose a so called "side" I would feel so much more empowering as a human being to forgive even the most horrific of deeds acted upon me. Yet I am human, and flawed so I can only speak of this as an idea to live by. Just as we are speaking of eye for an eye as a way of living. You are right though. When it comes down to it, who knows what any of us would really do.
P.S. Weeds come about when people rape the land with their needs. Its not the weeds fault.
-------------------- What boundlessness the pit of consciousness travels toward an infinite being. The cave is full of tumultuous obstacles, webs seemingly inescapable. There lies the path of knowledge forming thick and thin quantum fluctuations of living operations. And its inescapable quality of beauty is far beyond the reflection of its depths. Further I fall diving head first downwards into a black hole, plunging with intension to ascension.
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Boots
Disenchanted


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Posts: 1,137
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7959761 - 01/31/08 10:52 AM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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It depends on the situation in theory. However, in practice I tend to let things go because I realize that it's all small stuff and I shouldn't sweat it.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
I had thought it would be immediately apparent. You equated eating illegal substances with murder. Your name is mushroomtrip. Mushrooms are an illegal substance. You obviously eat mushrooms. You equated eating said substance with MURDER! I wouldn't think that I would have had to spell it out. And by the way, you probably meant " what does your name have to do with ANYthing in this thread" that would be the proper verbiage.
. Yes you have to spell it out because you make no sense. I am asking you again, what does my (name) have have to do with what we were discussing? Other than the fact that I obviously eat mushrooms which doesn't mean shit to this subject. 
I took it as an implied humorous satire to your name.... 
Murder = Mushrooms (which might actually be a good "in your face" slogan to enlighten people of the absurdity of equating the current punishments of the two "crimes")
So, your name could be "MurderTrip", and it would equate to the same thing....  Funny, unless I was just reading that stuff into it.... 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: jackeheart]
#7962598 - 01/31/08 10:39 PM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
jackeheart said: If I had to choose a so called "side" I would feel so much more empowering as a human being to forgive even the most horrific of deeds acted upon me.
What if those horrific deeds where a constant predictable weekly thing in your life, done so by an individual that you have never harmed....? There is also a point when it is time to make a stand instead of being passive.... And sometimes your very life may depend upon that stand to be taken....
Quote:
jackeheart said: P.S. Weeds come about when people rape the land with their needs. Its not the weeds fault.
I think of it more that we are using the resources that we know how to use for our advantage.... It is not the weeds fault because it (to our knowledge) doesn't intend to cause harm - the weed tries to survive.... Because we have "choice", you cannot say that violent offenders NEED to attack harmless people to survive.... Or, (me projecting here) do you postulate that us individuals (as a single conscious life-form) are no more "important" than a weed....?
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7963476 - 02/01/08 05:27 AM (16 years, 18 hours ago) |
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Quote:
PhanTomCat said:
So, your name could be "MurderTrip", and it would equate to the same thing....  Funny, unless I was just reading that stuff into it.... 
>^;;^<
Hey, I think you might be on to something here. Just think about it... I could easily change my name to MurderTrip.  Then I could seriously injure those who don't respect the mushroom, err... the murder.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
#7963642 - 02/01/08 06:42 AM (16 years, 17 hours ago) |
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That we should accept any action that harms an inoccent person or curtails there own freedoms as a human being based on the fact that it is part of some belief system sickens me.
So you believe there exists such a thing as an Absolute Morality or an Absolute Right and Wrong? And that every human has an innate ability to discern this?
There are some very persuasive arguments in favor of Moral Relativism which argue that there is no such thing as an objective morality, and that no logical argument can support absolute morality because morality is relative to culture.
From the Wiki: Given the same set of verifiable facts, some societies or individuals will have a fundamental disagreement about what one ought to do based on societal or individual norms, and one cannot adjudicate these using some independent standard of evaluation. The latter standard will always be societal or personal and not universal, unlike, for example, the scientific standards for assessing temperature or for determining mathematical truths.
I'm not taking sides by the way. Interesting thread.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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WhiskeyClone
Not here


Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7963859 - 02/01/08 08:33 AM (16 years, 15 hours ago) |
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There was a thread recently about a man who sodomized another man with a screwdriver when he found out that man had raped his child. Many people were applauding this response, touting the 'eye for an eye' philosophy of justice.
I don't think eye for an eye makes sense. Rather than retype my thoughts on it, I'll just share my other response.
Quote:
I do not have any sympathy for this man. He was tortured brutally in response to his own act of cruelty, and I do not feel sorry for him. In this thread I have seen true hatred. I too feel this impulse to inflict pain on him. I understand it fully, believe me. I have fantasized about kicking someone's skull in for insulting a friend, or for taking my parking spot. Because it is triggered so easily I hesitate to trust these impulses to reciprocate cruelty. Whenever the thought of this man's crime flashes through my head I still feel this same burning anger I see in many of you. As I type this, my mind scolds "He should have his face smashed with a baseball bat," with that familiar sense of self-righteousness.
Is my impulse correct this time? Does his act of extreme cruelty justify what I would like to do, or what the girl's father did do? It sounds obvious, but really, why do we think it makes sense to do this?
An eye for an eye? Is that justice in this case?
The truth is there is no justice for this. Nothing can make this situation right. It seems like torturing the perpetrator brings us a little closer, though. I think this is an illusion.
If torturing the offender cannot bring justice, what can it bring? Perhaps some modicum of emotional release for those of us boiling over with rage? Is torture justifiable in this case, so we may indulge this impulse? My emotions say yes but my brain says no. If it is up to the justice system, the response must remain objective and as unemotional as possible, as difficult as that may be.
If I were a parent, and this happened to my daughter, would I then be justified in indulging this impulse to maim and kill? Many of you would say yes. Earlier today I decided yes I would be. But that would only land me in jail, and that would do no service to my family, and my rage would remain unsatisfied. I would have to be stronger than I perhaps could be to resist the urge to tear his throat out, because it is the wrong thing to do for my family.
If I know personal satisfaction is, objectively, no good reason to torture this man, then what reason is there to do it?
Does it benefit the victim? Perhaps, but only insomuch as the family's indulgence in their own rage. Closure? I don't think there is such thing as closure in an incident like this.
Is it an effective deterrent for future would-be rapists? No, I don't think these monsters ever think about the consequences.
No matter how I think about it, the only reason for the torture is to console ourselves. But what other reaction could be expected from such a horrible act? It is so tempting to focus our rage on the perpetrator, but what real good would it do? It would feel good, I guess. That seems to be it.
Then what does he deserve? I don't know. Death, incarceration for life, take your pick... probably depends on your political views. As long as he is never able to victimize anyone again, I don't care. I don't think anything we can do to him can help anybody, given what has already happened. I suspect I would be secretly happy if I heard he was murdered in prison, but that's just my own selfish urge for blood speaking up again.
There is no justice to be had here.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Quote:
WhiskeyClone said: There was a thread recently about a man who sodomized another man with a screwdriver when he found out that man had raped his child. Many people were applauding this response, touting the 'eye for an eye' philosophy of justice.
I don't think eye for an eye makes sense. Rather than retype my thoughts on it, I'll just share my other response.
Quote:
An eye for an eye? Is that justice in this case? . The truth is there is no justice for this. Nothing can make this situation right. It seems like torturing the perpetrator brings us a little closer, though. I think this is an illusion. . If torturing the offender cannot bring justice, what can it bring? Perhaps some modicum of emotional release for those of us boiling over with rage? Is torture justifiable in this case, so we may indulge this impulse? My emotions say yes but my brain says no. If it is up to the justice system, the response must remain objective and as unemotional as possible, as difficult as that may be.
With "eye for an eye" justice, it seems like a retaliatory attempt at preventing the offender from ever wanting to offend again - because they now know what it is like to be the exact victim of the crime they committed - without the choice (like the victim)....
No true "justice" can be had with a violent event/crime.... Nothing can take back what was done.... But, some "eye for an eye" punishments can help in the aid of preventing it from happening again....
What are some other reality based choices that work....?
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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TODAY
Battletoad


Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,218
Loc: Metropolis City, USA
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7965907 - 02/01/08 05:40 PM (16 years, 6 hours ago) |
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an eye for an eye is justice.
--------------------
ca'rouse (k-rouz) intr.v. To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: TODAY]
#7965918 - 02/01/08 05:43 PM (16 years, 6 hours ago) |
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Elaborate
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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hummermania00
Strange Son of aBitch



Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 327
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Well, I will throw in a word on the title here. Let's presume for a moment that everyone accepts that "an eye for an eye" is a biblical reference. Not because you believe in the bible, but for sake of clarity. I am going from memory here. The expression is described as being instruction to judges in ancient Israel for the purpose of justice. It was common justice in ancient times to compensate an aggrieved with tangible assets. So, if you did harm to my family or possessions the penalty would fit the crime. Add the second part of the saying in: "and a tooth for a tooth", and you can see that the penalties or compensations (as instruction to judges) were to have a relative effect. An eye is much more valuable than a tooth.
-------------------- You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events. When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.
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igwna
The Cap'n


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thunderdome
-------------------- I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Yes, but what is just for one might be and IS unjust for another. This balance that eye for and eye and tooth for a took is only illusory, as it treats only the immediate and surface issues of existence.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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jackeheart
JackHeart


Registered: 10/02/07
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Sometimes the best defense is a retreat. I suppose if the same horrible things were happening to me, I would do what some people call "running away." Also I would hope that under the circumstances the perpetrator would know I was forgiving them. But Forgiveness does not need be openly impressed. It is only an act of individuality because others will translate it subjectively.
If the destructive oppression was put upon me with such force that my life was on the line, no matter where I ran to, and the only action available was to stand up in a vengeful manner ideally I would have to choose death. Yet I doubt such a confrontation could ever arise. There is always a passive way out to defend yourself. Example: A man has a gun pointed at you with intention to kill you. You also have a gun. Rather then killing them outright why not shoot them in the arm to stop them from shooting you. I challenge somebody to come up with a situation where pure "eye for an eye" Revenge is the only way out aside from death.
I do postulate that we are no more important then a weed. We are all equal, everything in the universe. But that is another discussion.
You make a good point about the garden, I eat fruits and vegetables everyday so I can not say agriculture is wrong. But with your analogy could you also say those good plants have no feelings either?
To further the analogy I came up with this. The weeds are like the criminals. The plants could be like the harmless. The gardeners are like the Law. The weeds need to survive and care not about the life of the "good" plants. I do not think choice is as much of a factor because the criminals base so much of their choices on their needs. The need for money, the need for control, the need for blood, hell, even the need for choice.
Please do not see this as your local set of laws, but rather as a metaphor for those who are harmless, those who commit acts of oppression, and those who try to pass judgment and punishment like "eye for an eye".
One last point. There are some small tribes out there who rely only on the plants that grow out of their surrounding land. This is probably impossible with our population. I just pose this as something rhetorical to this subject of gardens and weeds.
-------------------- What boundlessness the pit of consciousness travels toward an infinite being. The cave is full of tumultuous obstacles, webs seemingly inescapable. There lies the path of knowledge forming thick and thin quantum fluctuations of living operations. And its inescapable quality of beauty is far beyond the reflection of its depths. Further I fall diving head first downwards into a black hole, plunging with intension to ascension.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: This balance that eye for and eye and tooth for a took is only illusory, as it treats only the immediate and surface issues of existence.
Don't you think that if you were acted upon in a violent way by someone else, the whole situation would zap your core emotional mental facilities with some major voltage....?
Immediate surface issues of existence is all you think it would make you feel....? Wouldn't it make you have a "deeper more restful piece of mind" - by knowing that the specific violent person that hurt you can't ever hurt you again....?
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



Registered: 05/21/07
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7967418 - 02/02/08 01:14 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Wouldn't forgiving someone empower them because you are submitting to their will, letting them push you around?
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SheerTerror
ST



Registered: 11/28/03
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yeah, its all selfish for the most part. but what about value judgment, misunderstandings, self-assertion, ect
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7967596 - 02/02/08 03:48 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
PhanTomCat said:
Quote:
MushroomTrip said: This balance that eye for and eye and tooth for a took is only illusory, as it treats only the immediate and surface issues of existence.
Don't you think that if you were acted upon in a violent way by someone else, the whole situation would zap your core emotional mental facilities with some major voltage....?
Immediate surface issues of existence is all you think it would make you feel....? Wouldn't it make you have a "deeper more restful piece of mind" - by knowing that the specific violent person that hurt you can't ever hurt you again....?
>^;;^<
I have been in not so severe but similar situations. Honestly, I think that more than 75% of the reasons I would have felt better if "justice was done" would have been because of revenge. I am not saying that safety doesn't matter to me, I am merely observing that between those two, revenge somehow achieves a higher score. I might even say that IT IS generated by the need to feel safe itself, only that manifests itself in aggressive manner. Now, I can't be THAT different from all the rest.  Also I am aware that somehow the danger must be removed. What I am arguing about is that punishment is far from being a good way to do that. It is so because of the mentality it triggers in our mind, the fact that it encourages our instincts to manifest themselves in a low way, where an attack creates even more attacks and this time legal. I am not even saying that I have a better solution than the current one.
Now let me ask you something: supposedly someone seriously harms me and they go to prison. Where besides the fact that it doesn't correct anything, it also creates a perfect climate where one could learn how to become an even better and more threatening criminal. And that also, in most of the cases, they will get out of the prison some day. Isn't it fair and reasonable to think that they might want to make me pay? After all, it's because of me that they did all these years of prison. Isn't it also true that the backsliding percentage is overwhelmingly high?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: SheerTerror]
#7967597 - 02/02/08 03:49 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
SheerTerror said: yeah, its all selfish for the most part. but what about value judgment, misunderstandings, self-assertion, ect
What about them? Can you be a little more specific?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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SheerTerror
ST



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hummermania00
Strange Son of aBitch



Registered: 04/07/07
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Yes, but what is just for one might be and IS unjust for another. This balance that eye for and eye and tooth for a took is only illusory, as it treats only the immediate and surface issues of existence.
What you say is true. Let's not forget that the application of this principle of justice may have been effective in ancient times. However, it still relied on human judgment to decide a course of action, or penalty; and it still does today. Now, do I believe there are better ways to handle punishment than simple incarceration? Absolutely I do, only because the current system obviously does not work. Nowhere is this more evident than the US. (ref) http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/sep2007/pris-s29.shtml
Do I have an answer, or an alternative system of justice? Not really, I guess it really depends on what the aggrieved wants for justice. Some want revenge, some can forgive. Tis humanity. Most countries now have more laws than anyone can ever hope to enforce, but there is a huge focus on the petty criminal in the US. Why? Prisons are big business in America. Refer to the link provided that private outsourcing of prisons generates $40b per year.
-------------------- You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events. When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.
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SheerTerror
ST



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Its like i just got out of jail right now and the fuckface's kept shit of mine, where the fuck do i go from here?
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TODAY
Battletoad


Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,218
Loc: Metropolis City, USA
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Elaborate
I was wrong, the offending party must pay interest on the eye. It is not justice to have your eye gouged and then gouge the eye of the offender in response without some sort of punitive compensation.
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ca'rouse (k-rouz) intr.v. To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.
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SheerTerror
ST



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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: TODAY]
#7969034 - 02/02/08 02:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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fucken pigs
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SheerTerror
ST



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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: SheerTerror]
#7969147 - 02/02/08 03:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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SheerTerror
ST



Registered: 11/28/03
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: SheerTerror]
#7969152 - 02/02/08 03:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Billy_boy
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igwna
The Cap'n


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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: SheerTerror]
#7970038 - 02/02/08 07:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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thunderdome is the way to go fer sure.
-------------------- I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.
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SheerTerror
ST



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Still though, I got Pi'ed and didn't get anything put on my record, but they stole atleast $50 worth of my shit, its like what about suffering from loses like this?
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Honestly, I think that more than 75% of the reasons I would have felt better if "justice was done" would have been because of revenge. I am not saying that safety doesn't matter to me, I am merely observing that between those two, revenge somehow achieves a higher score. I might even say that IT IS generated by the need to feel safe itself, only that manifests itself in aggressive manner. Now, I can't be THAT different from all the rest. 
I can't say that you are different, most people want to feel safe and cozy....  But, now take yourself out from being the victim into being a witness.... You and 9 other people see the brutal violent unprovoked beating of a harmless old lady.... You have no attachment to the victim now except knowing that she didn't "deserve" her beating.... (and I hate to use the word "deserve", it is almost always an unfitting descriptor) Is it revenge that now drives you to want to see justice....? Is it empathy....? Or something else....?
Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Also I am aware that somehow the danger must be removed. What I am arguing about is that punishment is far from being a good way to do that. It is so because of the mentality it triggers in our mind, the fact that it encourages our instincts to manifest themselves in a low way, where an attack creates even more attacks and this time legal. I am not even saying that I have a better solution than the current one.
I think that most of the instinctive reactions come from the fact that the person was victimized in traumatic ways that they may have never had to deal with before, and the emotional strains are be pretty "grand".... And being the victim of physical violence is not always a choice (some say that being a victim IS a choice).... Traumatic shit re-wires your brain, and it loops over and over again.... It is a defense mechanism to instill that you not let that happen to yourself again at all costs.... So those instincts do manifest in a low way, but it is not usually the victim that brings it to that level....
Is 75% of justice being because of revenge a "real" statistic....? What about empathy for the future of other possible victims....? I would think that to be a viable percentage of a cause as well (making it a higher manifestation)....
Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Now let me ask you something: supposedly someone seriously harms me and they go to prison. Where besides the fact that it doesn't correct anything, it also creates a perfect climate where one could learn how to become an even better and more threatening criminal. And that also, in most of the cases, they will get out of the prison some day. Isn't it fair and reasonable to think that they might want to make me pay? After all, it's because of me that they did all these years of prison. Isn't it also true that the backsliding percentage is overwhelmingly high?
Prison is crap, it isn't an "eye for an eye" in any way shape or form.... It is a "one size fits all" funnel because people don't have the balls to take care of business.... Prisoners have to many rights, can educate themselves, and can join the gangland armies.... The backsliding just proves that prison's "corrections" don't work (for a high percentage)....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Fugai
Stranger


Registered: 01/27/08
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7989997 - 02/07/08 12:29 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Like I said in Nirvana, I AM SO GLAD I TOOK A BREAK At least Phantomcat has kept up the debate on the rational side. First of all: Jackeheart - I'm not the fool thats who!! Also, acceptance and forgiveness have been central to my own position, you should read ALL my posts in this thread, not just my response to Mushroomtrip which are sure to be abrasive. Sorry, she really gets to me AH!! But forgiveness has nothing to do with what I see as the central issue here. The question is, Should there be CONSEQUENCES. I think that idea is central to the issue of Justice. Otherwise as Learntofly has touched on, you empower those you would do evil. Like I said before, there will always be those who seek power over others, and there will always be those who commit offenses against the innocent. What should we do? If we allow it, they are empowered. It has nothing to do with retribution or revenge. those things are selfish and just as wrong as the initial offense. Should there not be consequences to those who would harm others?
Phantomcat - EXACTLY BRO, you get it. Her name should be Murdertrip. That was exactly what I was trying to relate, and yes I did find it funny. I don't know what was so hard for her to understand with that, I thought the implication was OBVIOUS, painfully obvious. Thats why, and let me say it in this thread also. I have decided not to even argue with her any more at all. She is absolutely incorrigible, it's maddening. And she adds nothing to the conversation. She just drags people into these circular arguments that go nowhere. And your other post later was exactly the point I was trying to get across to her also. I was not appealing to fear, I was making the point that if she were a victim rather than a proponent in a debate, she would change her view. No one would like the idea that whatever had been visited upon them, would be allowed to be visited on another, or themselves again! None
Murdertrip - Your incorrigible!! Just in case you didn't read the above. And I'm going to count, just because I want to actually bring it to everyones attention, But how many times do you think you've said "elaborate" in it's various forms?? It really is maddening. As if asking for a further explanation is discrediting the argument! At least come up with an retort!
Diploid - I myself do not believe in Absolute Morality in the broad sense of the term. But also we cannot decline to Absolute Pluralistic Relativism, where nothing is wrong, or nothing is offensive because it's all subjective. Some things are not subjective. And yes we should be able to discern these things. A child, as soon as they are cognitively able to take the perspective of "other", knows that, lets say stealing, or battery/assault without reason, MURDER etcetera, knows that these things are wrong. And does not need to be told. I am actually against the argument that people need to be told these things. I like what they say at the end of BoondockSaints (even though I am not christian), that the ten commandments in terms of being a code of conduct are not polite suggestions, they in general, are something that every people of every faith can stand behind. Now I will say, having said that, the religious backing of that argument offends me, and I typed it. But my point is that some things cannot be allowed, otherwise they will continue. My central questions is, should there be consequences? Again though, this is not a question of retaliation or revenge. Should there be consequences?
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
#7990373 - 02/07/08 02:36 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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You're a 
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
Edited by MushroomTrip (02/07/08 04:49 AM)
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jackeheart
JackHeart


Registered: 10/02/07
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Good Reply. Though I think it is safe to say that Forgiveness is a type of Consequence. And I did read your posts. You mention do forgiveness true, proceeded by a "but..." argument of seeking fair justice. I think real forgiveness is unconditional.
As far as the idea, "there will always be those who seek power over others..[etc]" Always? that is a long time. I have a few simple questions.
1-Do you personally want there to always be people like that? 2-Do you honestly believe that eye for an eye justice (or any other type of not empowering power seekers, abusers of the innocent, malicious controllers) will ultimately solve problems? The problems of the world?
This post is great. And I think that most sides of the argument have been discussed. But I wonder if now it could lead more to a solution. Something we can learn about ourselves. Like an alternative to eye for an eye. I have a feeling that the answer have already been written between the lines of previous posts.
-------------------- What boundlessness the pit of consciousness travels toward an infinite being. The cave is full of tumultuous obstacles, webs seemingly inescapable. There lies the path of knowledge forming thick and thin quantum fluctuations of living operations. And its inescapable quality of beauty is far beyond the reflection of its depths. Further I fall diving head first downwards into a black hole, plunging with intension to ascension.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: jackeheart]
#8008722 - 02/11/08 12:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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There are two ways of forgiveness. 1. The other dude is still doing his (hurting) shit and you managed to becoming not influenced by it. Then you can personally forgive him, to feel better egoistically. But that's lame, because he still 'rapes' others.
2. The other one agrees that he was shitting over and means to not do it again, than I am really able to honestly forgive him. That's true forgiveness. Eye for an eye..
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