Like I said in Nirvana, I AM SO GLAD I TOOK A BREAK At least Phantomcat has kept up the debate on the rational side. First of all: Jackeheart - I'm not the fool thats who!! Also, acceptance and forgiveness have been central to my own position, you should read ALL my posts in this thread, not just my response to Mushroomtrip which are sure to be abrasive. Sorry, she really gets to me AH!! But forgiveness has nothing to do with what I see as the central issue here. The question is, Should there be CONSEQUENCES. I think that idea is central to the issue of Justice. Otherwise as Learntofly has touched on, you empower those you would do evil. Like I said before, there will always be those who seek power over others, and there will always be those who commit offenses against the innocent. What should we do? If we allow it, they are empowered. It has nothing to do with retribution or revenge. those things are selfish and just as wrong as the initial offense. Should there not be consequences to those who would harm others?
Phantomcat - EXACTLY BRO, you get it. Her name should be Murdertrip. That was exactly what I was trying to relate, and yes I did find it funny. I don't know what was so hard for her to understand with that, I thought the implication was OBVIOUS, painfully obvious. Thats why, and let me say it in this thread also. I have decided not to even argue with her any more at all. She is absolutely incorrigible, it's maddening. And she adds nothing to the conversation. She just drags people into these circular arguments that go nowhere. And your other post later was exactly the point I was trying to get across to her also. I was not appealing to fear, I was making the point that if she were a victim rather than a proponent in a debate, she would change her view. No one would like the idea that whatever had been visited upon them, would be allowed to be visited on another, or themselves again! None
Murdertrip - Your incorrigible!! Just in case you didn't read the above. And I'm going to count, just because I want to actually bring it to everyones attention, But how many times do you think you've said "elaborate" in it's various forms?? It really is maddening. As if asking for a further explanation is discrediting the argument! At least come up with an retort!
Diploid - I myself do not believe in Absolute Morality in the broad sense of the term. But also we cannot decline to Absolute Pluralistic Relativism, where nothing is wrong, or nothing is offensive because it's all subjective. Some things are not subjective. And yes we should be able to discern these things. A child, as soon as they are cognitively able to take the perspective of "other", knows that, lets say stealing, or battery/assault without reason, MURDER etcetera, knows that these things are wrong. And does not need to be told. I am actually against the argument that people need to be told these things. I like what they say at the end of BoondockSaints (even though I am not christian), that the ten commandments in terms of being a code of conduct are not polite suggestions, they in general, are something that every people of every faith can stand behind. Now I will say, having said that, the religious backing of that argument offends me, and I typed it. But my point is that some things cannot be allowed, otherwise they will continue. My central questions is, should there be consequences? Again though, this is not a question of retaliation or revenge. Should there be consequences?
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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Good Reply. Though I think it is safe to say that Forgiveness is a type of Consequence. And I did read your posts. You mention do forgiveness true, proceeded by a "but..." argument of seeking fair justice. I think real forgiveness is unconditional.
As far as the idea, "there will always be those who seek power over others..[etc]" Always? that is a long time. I have a few simple questions.
1-Do you personally want there to always be people like that? 2-Do you honestly believe that eye for an eye justice (or any other type of not empowering power seekers, abusers of the innocent, malicious controllers) will ultimately solve problems? The problems of the world?
This post is great. And I think that most sides of the argument have been discussed. But I wonder if now it could lead more to a solution. Something we can learn about ourselves. Like an alternative to eye for an eye. I have a feeling that the answer have already been written between the lines of previous posts.
-------------------- What boundlessness the pit of consciousness travels toward an infinite being. The cave is full of tumultuous obstacles, webs seemingly inescapable. There lies the path of knowledge forming thick and thin quantum fluctuations of living operations. And its inescapable quality of beauty is far beyond the reflection of its depths. Further I fall diving head first downwards into a black hole, plunging with intension to ascension.
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