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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 25 days
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: TODAY]
    #7965918 - 02/01/08 05:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Elaborate


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlinehummermania00
Strange Son of aBitch
Male


Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 327
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7966220 - 02/01/08 07:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I will throw in a word on the title here. Let's presume for a moment that everyone accepts that "an eye for an eye" is a biblical reference. Not because you believe in the bible, but for sake of clarity.
I am going from memory here. The expression is described as being instruction to judges in ancient Israel for the purpose of justice.
It was common justice in ancient times to compensate an aggrieved with tangible assets. So, if you did harm to my family or possessions the penalty would fit the crime. Add the second part of the saying in: "and a tooth for a tooth", and you can see that the penalties or compensations (as instruction to judges) were to have a relative effect. An eye is much more valuable than a tooth.


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.

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Offlineigwna
The Cap'n
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Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 8,016
Loc: New England, USA
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: hummermania00]
    #7966730 - 02/01/08 09:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

thunderdome


--------------------
I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 25 days
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: hummermania00]
    #7966975 - 02/01/08 10:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, but what is just for one might be and IS unjust for another.
This balance that eye for and eye and tooth for a took is only illusory, as it treats only the immediate and surface issues of existence.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlinejackeheart
JackHeart


Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 27
Loc: Nevada City, CA
Last seen: 15 years, 28 days
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7967362 - 02/02/08 12:43 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Sometimes the best defense is a retreat. I suppose if the same horrible things were happening to me, I would do what some people call "running away." Also I would hope that under the circumstances the perpetrator would know I was forgiving them. But Forgiveness does not need be openly impressed. It is only an act of individuality because others will translate it subjectively.

If the destructive oppression was put upon me with such force that my life was on the line, no matter where I ran to, and the only action available was to stand up in a vengeful manner ideally I would have to choose death. Yet I doubt such a confrontation could ever arise. There is always a passive way out to defend yourself. Example: A man has a gun pointed at you with intention to kill you. You also have a gun. Rather then killing them outright why not shoot them in the arm to stop them from shooting you. I challenge somebody to come up with a situation where pure "eye for an eye" Revenge is the only way out aside from death.

I do postulate that we are no more important then a weed. We are all equal, everything in the universe. But that is another discussion.

You make a good point about the garden, I eat fruits and vegetables everyday so I can not say agriculture is wrong. But with your analogy could you also say those good plants have no feelings either?

To further the analogy I came up with this. The weeds are like the criminals. The plants could be like the harmless. The gardeners are like the Law. The weeds need to survive and care not about the life of the "good" plants. I do not think choice is as much of a factor because the criminals base so much of their choices on their needs. The need for money, the need for control, the need for blood, hell, even the need for choice.

Please do not see this as your local set of laws, but rather as a metaphor for those who are harmless, those who commit acts of oppression, and those who try to pass judgment and punishment like "eye for an eye".

One last point. There are some small tribes out there who rely only on the plants that grow out of their surrounding land. This is probably impossible with our population. I just pose this as something rhetorical to this subject of gardens and weeds.


--------------------
What boundlessness the pit of consciousness travels toward an infinite being.
The cave is full of tumultuous obstacles, webs seemingly inescapable.
There lies the path of knowledge forming thick and thin quantum fluctuations of living operations.
And its inescapable quality of beauty is far beyond the reflection of its depths.
Further I fall diving head first downwards into a black hole, plunging with intension to ascension.

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7967405 - 02/02/08 01:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
This balance that eye for and eye and tooth for a took is only illusory, as it treats only the immediate and surface issues of existence.




Don't you think that if you were acted upon in a violent way by someone else,
the whole situation would zap your core emotional mental facilities with some major voltage....?

Immediate surface issues of existence is all you think it would make you feel....?
Wouldn't it make you have a "deeper more restful piece of mind" -
by knowing that the specific violent person that hurt you can't ever hurt you again....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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Offlinelearningtofly
Ancient Aliens
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Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7967418 - 02/02/08 01:14 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Wouldn't forgiving someone empower them because you are submitting to their will, letting them push you around?


--------------------

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OfflineSheerTerror
ST
Male


Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 2,348
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7967477 - 02/02/08 01:41 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

yeah, its all selfish for the most part. but what about value judgment, misunderstandings, self-assertion, ect

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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 25 days
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7967596 - 02/02/08 03:48 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
This balance that eye for and eye and tooth for a took is only illusory, as it treats only the immediate and surface issues of existence.




Don't you think that if you were acted upon in a violent way by someone else,
the whole situation would zap your core emotional mental facilities with some major voltage....?

Immediate surface issues of existence is all you think it would make you feel....?
Wouldn't it make you have a "deeper more restful piece of mind" -
by knowing that the specific violent person that hurt you can't ever hurt you again....?


>^;;^<




I have been in not so severe but similar situations.
Honestly, I think that more than 75% of the reasons I would have felt better if "justice was done" would have been because of revenge. I am not saying that safety doesn't matter to me, I am merely observing that between those two, revenge somehow achieves a higher score. I might even say that IT IS generated by the need to feel safe itself, only that manifests itself in aggressive manner. Now, I can't be THAT different from all the rest. :tongue:
Also I am aware that somehow the danger must be removed.
What I am arguing about is that punishment is far from being a good way to do that. It is so because of the mentality it triggers in our mind, the fact that it encourages our instincts to manifest themselves in a low way, where an attack creates even more attacks and this time legal.
I am not even saying that I have a better solution than the current one.

Now let me ask you something: supposedly someone seriously harms me and they go to prison. Where besides the fact that it doesn't correct anything, it also creates a perfect climate where one could learn how to become an even better and more threatening criminal. And that also, in most of the cases, they will get out of the prison some day.
Isn't it fair and reasonable to think that they might want to make me pay? After all, it's because of me that they did all these years of prison.
Isn't it also true that the  backsliding percentage is overwhelmingly high?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 25 days
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: SheerTerror]
    #7967597 - 02/02/08 03:49 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SheerTerror said:
yeah, its all selfish for the most part. but what about value judgment, misunderstandings, self-assertion, ect




What about them? Can you be a little more specific?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineSheerTerror
ST
Male


Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 2,348
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7967605 - 02/02/08 03:59 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)


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Offlinehummermania00
Strange Son of aBitch
Male


Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 327
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7968553 - 02/02/08 12:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Yes, but what is just for one might be and IS unjust for another.
This balance that eye for and eye and tooth for a took is only illusory, as it treats only the immediate and surface issues of existence.




What you say is true.
Let's not forget that the application of this principle of justice may have been effective in ancient times. However, it still relied on human judgment to decide a course of action, or penalty; and it still does today.
Now, do I believe there are better ways to handle punishment than simple incarceration? Absolutely I do, only because the current system obviously does not work. Nowhere is this more evident than the US. (ref) http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/sep2007/pris-s29.shtml

Do I have an answer, or an alternative system of justice?
Not really, I guess it really depends on what the aggrieved wants for justice. Some want revenge, some can forgive. Tis humanity.
Most countries now have more laws than anyone can ever hope to enforce, but there is a huge focus on the petty criminal in the US.
Why?
Prisons are big business in America. Refer to the link provided that private outsourcing of prisons generates $40b per year.


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.

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OfflineSheerTerror
ST
Male


Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 2,348
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7968869 - 02/02/08 01:57 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Its like i just got out of jail right now and the fuckface's kept shit of mine, where the fuck do i go from here?

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InvisibleTODAY
Battletoad
Male

Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,218
Loc: Metropolis City, USA
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7968926 - 02/02/08 02:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Elaborate




I was wrong, the offending party must pay interest on the eye. It is not justice to have your eye gouged and then gouge the eye of the offender in response without some sort of punitive compensation.


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.

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OfflineSheerTerror
ST
Male


Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 2,348
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: TODAY]
    #7969034 - 02/02/08 02:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

fucken pigs

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OfflineSheerTerror
ST
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Registered: 11/28/03
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: SheerTerror]
    #7969147 - 02/02/08 03:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)


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OfflineSheerTerror
ST
Male


Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 2,348
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: SheerTerror]
    #7969152 - 02/02/08 03:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Billy_boy

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Offlineigwna
The Cap'n
Male

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 8,016
Loc: New England, USA
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: SheerTerror]
    #7970038 - 02/02/08 07:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

thunderdome is the way to go
fer sure.


--------------------
I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.


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OfflineSheerTerror
ST
Male


Registered: 11/28/03
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Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7970505 - 02/02/08 08:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Still though, I got Pi'ed and didn't get anything put on my record, but they stole atleast $50 worth of my shit, its like what about suffering from loses like this?

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7978974 - 02/04/08 06:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Honestly, I think that more than 75% of the reasons I would have felt better if "justice was done" would have been because of revenge. I am not saying that safety doesn't matter to me, I am merely observing that between those two, revenge somehow achieves a higher score. I might even say that IT IS generated by the need to feel safe itself, only that manifests itself in aggressive manner. Now, I can't be THAT different from all the rest. :tongue:




I can't say that you are different, most people want to feel safe and cozy....    :thumbup:
But, now take yourself out from being the victim into being a witness....
You and 9 other people see the brutal violent unprovoked beating of a harmless old lady....
You have no attachment to the victim now except knowing that she didn't "deserve" her beating....
(and I hate to use the word "deserve", it is almost always an unfitting descriptor)
Is it revenge that now drives you to want to see justice....?
Is it empathy....?    Or something else....?




Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Also I am aware that somehow the danger must be removed.
What I am arguing about is that punishment is far from being a good way to do that. It is so because of the mentality it triggers in our mind, the fact that it encourages our instincts to manifest themselves in a low way, where an attack creates even more attacks and this time legal.
I am not even saying that I have a better solution than the current one.




I think that most of the instinctive reactions come from the fact that the person was victimized in traumatic ways that they may have never had to deal with before, and the emotional strains are be pretty "grand"....  And being the victim of physical violence is not always a choice (some say that being a victim IS a choice)....    Traumatic shit re-wires your brain, and it loops over and over again....  It is a defense mechanism to instill that you not let that happen to yourself again at all costs....  So those instincts do manifest in a low way, but it is not usually the victim that brings it to that level....   

Is 75% of justice being because of revenge a "real" statistic....?
What about empathy for the future of other possible victims....?
I would think that to be a viable percentage of a cause as well (making it a higher manifestation)....




Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Now let me ask you something: supposedly someone seriously harms me and they go to prison. Where besides the fact that it doesn't correct anything, it also creates a perfect climate where one could learn how to become an even better and more threatening criminal. And that also, in most of the cases, they will get out of the prison some day.
Isn't it fair and reasonable to think that they might want to make me pay? After all, it's because of me that they did all these years of prison.
Isn't it also true that the backsliding percentage is overwhelmingly high?




Prison is crap, it isn't an "eye for an eye" in any way shape or form....
It is a "one size fits all" funnel because people don't have the balls to take care of business....
Prisoners have to many rights, can educate themselves, and can join the gangland armies....
The backsliding just proves that prison's "corrections" don't work (for a high percentage)....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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