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OfflineFugai
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Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 80
Loc: Orygun
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Middleman]
    #7958472 - 01/30/08 11:11 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

hell yeah, just in time:stoned:


--------------------
Principles of acceptance
* People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves.

* When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
    #7958504 - 01/30/08 11:16 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Fugai said:

Especially with a name like mushroomtrip! Is eating mushrooms akin to murder?

...Either that or you are a complete fool.




I just noticed this, getting a little personal there.

Please criticize ideas not members, thanks. :kittyeagle:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
    #7958541 - 01/30/08 11:29 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

I had thought it would be immediately apparent. You equated eating illegal substances with murder. Your name is mushroomtrip. Mushrooms are an illegal substance. You obviously eat mushrooms. You equated eating said substance with MURDER! I wouldn't think that I would have had to spell it out. And by the way, you probably meant " what does your name have to do with ANYthing in this thread" that would be the proper verbiage.




Yes you have to spell it out because you make no sense.
I am asking you again, what does my have have to do with what we were discussing? Other than the fact that I obviously eat mushrooms which doesn't mean shit to this subject. :lol:

Quote:

Am I unable to make the difference??




Yes :smirk:

Quote:

First of all thats absolute bullshit. And if you really believe all that, your a hypocrite.




:bitch:

Quote:

And by the way I didn't say it couldn't hurt anyone, what I said is that by my eating it I am not doing harm to anyone. And if someone hurts another person while under the influence, it is not the fault of the substance. But that is besides the issue. You equated it with murder! Yet your name is mushroomtrip!




Yes, you made this thing pretty clear.
And I am asking you again: so what? :strokebeard:

Quote:

Are you serious??
That right there, aside from anything else you have said, COMPLETELY invalidates your point of view.




Elaborate :sherlock:

Quote:

You haven't refuted anything. You haven't even summoned a workable vocabulary. And as a matter of fact, if you will review the posts I did define justice. I said it was balance. And I know I said I wouldn't do it again, but really it is ridiculous. Do you even pay attention to what your typing? I know you don't talk like that. A person with that severe of a handicap would not be using a computer at all. That whole paragraph makes no sense! Even the spell checker can't help you! And for you to tell me to summon something more substantial than "its good", I actually laughed out loud.




Other that overusing personalisms you answered none of my questions.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
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Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7958569 - 01/30/08 11:35 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

The original question has too many variables involved. This is a lot more complex than simply yes or no.

I remember in "The Crucible" the one quote that always stuck with me was "life is God's most precious gift; no principle, however glorious may justify the taking of it" or something quite similar to that.

Equal punishment for a crime will not make anything better, but simply putting someone in a cell is not going to teach them the error of their ways.

I don't think my post contributed at all but I Just wanted to add in that quote.


--------------------


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OfflineFugai
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Registered: 01/27/08
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Loc: Orygun
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Middleman]
    #7958586 - 01/30/08 11:40 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

Thats the part you pick out? :laugh:
I wasn't calling her a fool. I was just saying it's one or the other:grin:
Ah, it's not my style anyway, so I'll stop. Sorry, she struck a cord.
You know you could have chimed in though. I refuse to believe I'm the only one here who disagrees with her summation that eating mushrooms is akin to murder and that some murders might actually have some long term benefit!


--------------------
Principles of acceptance
* People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves.

* When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Posts: 14,794
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Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
    #7958602 - 01/30/08 11:44 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Fugai said:
I wasn't calling her a fool. I was just saying it's one or the other:grin:




Hmmmm :strokebeard:

Quote:

Fugai said:
And if you really believe all that, your a hypocrite.




Quote:

Fugai said:
A person with that severe of a handicap would not be using a computer at all.




So, in your opinion, should liars get punished? :nono:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
    #7958613 - 01/30/08 11:47 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

"That is a foolish idea." = acceptable.

"You are..." = fail, even if it's an either / or statement.

Quote:

Fugai said:

You know you could have chimed in though.




Thanks, but I'm on a debate-free diet. :MM pats belly:


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OfflineFugai
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7958681 - 01/30/08 11:59 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

I said I never called you a fool, and I didn't. I never said I didn't call you a hypocrite:grin:
I'm sorry. Things got outta hand :grin:
But you are a hypocrite! Thats not an insult merely an observation. Your name is mushroomtrip, yet you equate eating mushrooms with murder? And you apparently do not see the inherent contradiction there. But in keeping with the wishes of the forum, I won't make such observations in the future.
I was being maligned as well you know!
And really, you can't even summon full complete legible sentence. You can't help but notice, I know you do!
And I never said anything in this thread about punishment. In fact, I have not once used the word at all you'll find. In my opinion punishment has nothing to do with Justice, or balance. Both issues I was discussing.
I will thank you not to call me a liar though!!


--------------------
Principles of acceptance
* People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves.

* When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.


Edited by Fugai (01/31/08 12:05 AM)


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
    #7958695 - 01/31/08 12:03 AM (16 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Fugai said:
And I never said anything in this thread about punishment. In fact, I have not once used the word at all you'll find.




No you did not specifically said it but you implied it:

Quote:

Should we all just let these things happen? Should we turn a blind eye? Or not seek justice? Do you think Gacey or Dahmer, or Bundy would have stopped on their own? Do you think we should forgive these things? And if so, how many times? I would love to see you keep that point of view after having someone close to you murdered. Or god forbid after being raped yourself. You have to be aware, as are we all, that your own position is in-defensible and are just arguing for the sake of it. Either that or you are a complete fool.




--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineFugai
Stranger
Male

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 80
Loc: Orygun
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Middleman]
    #7958715 - 01/31/08 12:07 AM (16 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Thanks, but I'm on a debate-free diet. :MM pats belly:




Should have guessed


--------------------
Principles of acceptance
* People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves.

* When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
    #7958722 - 01/31/08 12:08 AM (16 years, 2 days ago)

It's better that I don't debate and just sick to moderating, that way I don't get accused of being 'biased'.


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Offlinejackeheart
JackHeart


Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 27
Loc: Nevada City, CA
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Middleman]
    #7958913 - 01/31/08 01:23 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

I am surprised that forgiveness has been hardly touched upon within this post. I saw it here by the original Poster PhanTomCat:
Quote:

Should actions of violence and such just be forgiven and left "unpunished" -
given that the person has a history for such unneeded actions towards others....?




And here by Fugai's Famous statement which really sums up one side of the debate...I mean discussion:
Quote:

Should we all just let these things happen? Should we turn a blind eye? Or not seek justice? Do you think Gacey or Dahmer, or Bundy would have stopped on their own? Do you think we should forgive these things? And if so, how many times? I would love to see you keep that point of view after having someone close to you murdered. Or god forbid after being raped yourself. You have to be aware, as are we all, that your own position is in-defensible and are just arguing for the sake of it. Either that or you are a complete fool.




Who is the fool Fugal? One who can accept and forgive? Or one who lets these so self imposed morally wrong doing get to them, whether they seek revenge/justice by means of eye for an eye or worse, or just hold it with contempt in their hearts and minds?

One of the Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz is Don't Take anything personally. Our negative thoughts of justice (and I am going to imply the justice you would seek if somebody close to you was killed, raped. etc, use your imagination) Is just a reflection of the fear within ourselves, of what we are capable of. By seeking revenge we are committing the crime that was sought onto us.

If I had to choose a so called "side" I would feel so much more empowering as a human being to forgive even the most horrific of deeds acted upon me. Yet I am human, and flawed so I can only speak of this as an idea to live by. Just as we are speaking of eye for an eye as a way of living. You are right though. When it comes down to it, who knows what any of us would really do.

P.S. Weeds come about when people rape the land with their needs. Its not the weeds fault.


--------------------
What boundlessness the pit of consciousness travels toward an infinite being.
The cave is full of tumultuous obstacles, webs seemingly inescapable.
There lies the path of knowledge forming thick and thin quantum fluctuations of living operations.
And its inescapable quality of beauty is far beyond the reflection of its depths.
Further I fall diving head first downwards into a black hole, plunging with intension to ascension.


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OfflineBoots
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Registered: 07/25/07
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7959761 - 01/31/08 10:52 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

It depends on the situation in theory. However, in practice I tend to let things go because I realize that it's all small stuff and I shouldn't sweat it.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Registered: 09/07/04
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7962463 - 01/31/08 10:11 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

I had thought it would be immediately apparent. You equated eating illegal substances with murder. Your name is mushroomtrip. Mushrooms are an illegal substance. You obviously eat mushrooms. You equated eating said substance with MURDER! I wouldn't think that I would have had to spell it out. And by the way, you probably meant " what does your name have to do with ANYthing in this thread" that would be the proper verbiage.



.
Yes you have to spell it out because you make no sense.
I am asking you again, what does my (name) have have to do with what we were discussing? Other than the fact that I obviously eat mushrooms which doesn't mean shit to this subject. :lol:




I took it as an implied humorous satire to your name....    :thumbup:

Murder = Mushrooms 
(which might actually be a good "in your face" slogan to enlighten people of the absurdity of equating the current punishments of the two "crimes")

So, your name could be "MurderTrip", and it would equate to the same thing....    :shrug:    :lol:
Funny, unless I was just reading that stuff into it....  :grin:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: jackeheart]
    #7962598 - 01/31/08 10:39 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

jackeheart said:
If I had to choose a so called "side" I would feel so much more empowering as a human being to forgive even the most horrific of deeds acted upon me.




What if those horrific deeds where a constant predictable weekly thing in your life,
done so by an individual that you have never harmed....?
There is also a point when it is time to make a stand instead of being passive....
And sometimes your very life may depend upon that stand to be taken....



Quote:

jackeheart said:
P.S. Weeds come about when people rape the land with their needs. Its not the weeds fault.



I think of it more that we are using the resources that we know how to use for our advantage....
It is not the weeds fault because it (to our knowledge) doesn't intend to cause harm - the weed tries to survive....
Because we have "choice", you cannot say that violent offenders NEED to attack harmless people to survive....
Or, (me projecting here) do you postulate that us individuals (as a single conscious life-form) are no more "important" than a weed....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7963476 - 02/01/08 05:27 AM (16 years, 19 hours ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:

So, your name could be "MurderTrip", and it would equate to the same thing....    :shrug:    :lol:
Funny, unless I was just reading that stuff into it....  :grin:


>^;;^<




Hey, I think you might be on to something here.
Just think about it... I could easily change my name to MurderTrip. :strokebeard:
Then I could seriously injure those who don't respect the mushroom, err... the murder. :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: Fugai]
    #7963642 - 02/01/08 06:42 AM (16 years, 18 hours ago)

That we should accept any action that harms an inoccent person or curtails there own freedoms as a human being based on the fact that it is part of some belief system sickens me.

So you believe there exists such a thing as an Absolute Morality or an Absolute Right and Wrong? And that every human has an innate ability to discern this?

There are some very persuasive arguments in favor of Moral Relativism which argue that there is no such thing as an objective morality, and that no logical argument can support absolute morality because morality is relative to culture.

From the Wiki: Given the same set of verifiable facts, some societies or individuals will have a fundamental disagreement about what one ought to do based on societal or individual norms, and one cannot adjudicate these using some independent standard of evaluation. The latter standard will always be societal or personal and not universal, unlike, for example, the scientific standards for assessing temperature or for determining mathematical truths.

I'm not taking sides by the way. Interesting thread.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7963859 - 02/01/08 08:33 AM (16 years, 16 hours ago)

There was a thread recently about a man who sodomized another man with a screwdriver when he found out that man had raped his child. Many people were applauding this response, touting the 'eye for an eye' philosophy of justice.

I don't think eye for an eye makes sense. Rather than retype my thoughts on it, I'll just share my other response.

Quote:

I do not have any sympathy for this man. He was tortured brutally in response to his own act of cruelty, and I do not feel sorry for him. In this thread I have seen true hatred. I too feel this impulse to inflict pain on him. I understand it fully, believe me. I have fantasized about kicking someone's skull in for insulting a friend, or for taking my parking spot. Because it is triggered so easily I hesitate to trust these impulses to reciprocate cruelty. Whenever the thought of this man's crime flashes through my head I still feel this same burning anger I see in many of you. As I type this, my mind scolds "He should have his face smashed with a baseball bat," with that familiar sense of self-righteousness.

Is my impulse correct this time? Does his act of extreme cruelty justify what I would like to do, or what the girl's father did do? It sounds obvious, but really, why do we think it makes sense to do this?

An eye for an eye? Is that justice in this case?

The truth is there is no justice for this. Nothing can make this situation right. It seems like torturing the perpetrator brings us a little closer, though. I think this is an illusion.

If torturing the offender cannot bring justice, what can it bring? Perhaps some modicum of emotional release for those of us boiling over with rage? Is torture justifiable in this case, so we may indulge this impulse? My emotions say yes but my brain says no. If it is up to the justice system, the response must remain objective and as unemotional as possible, as difficult as that may be.

If I were a parent, and this happened to my daughter, would I then be justified in indulging this impulse to maim and kill? Many of you would say yes. Earlier today I decided yes I would be. But that would only land me in jail, and that would do no service to my family, and my rage would remain unsatisfied. I would have to be stronger than I perhaps could be to resist the urge to tear his throat out, because it is the wrong thing to do for my family.

If I know personal satisfaction is, objectively, no good reason to torture this man, then what reason is there to do it?

Does it benefit the victim? Perhaps, but only insomuch as the family's indulgence in their own rage. Closure? I don't think there is such thing as closure in an incident like this.

Is it an effective deterrent for future would-be rapists? No, I don't think these monsters ever think about the consequences.

No matter how I think about it, the only reason for the torture is to console ourselves. But what other reaction could be expected from such a horrible act? It is so tempting to focus our rage on the perpetrator, but what real good would it do? It would feel good, I guess. That seems to be it.

Then what does he deserve? I don't know. Death, incarceration for life, take your pick... probably depends on your political views. As long as he is never able to victimize anyone again, I don't care. I don't think anything we can do to him can help anybody, given what has already happened. I suspect I would be secretly happy if I heard he was murdered in prison, but that's just my own selfish urge for blood speaking up again.

There is no justice to be had here.





--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7965877 - 02/01/08 05:33 PM (16 years, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

WhiskeyClone said:
There was a thread recently about a man who sodomized another man with a screwdriver when he found out that man had raped his child. Many people were applauding this response, touting the 'eye for an eye' philosophy of justice.

I don't think eye for an eye makes sense. Rather than retype my thoughts on it, I'll just share my other response.

Quote:


An eye for an eye? Is that justice in this case?
.
The truth is there is no justice for this. Nothing can make this situation right. It seems like torturing the perpetrator brings us a little closer, though. I think this is an illusion.
.
If torturing the offender cannot bring justice, what can it bring? Perhaps some modicum of emotional release for those of us boiling over with rage? Is torture justifiable in this case, so we may indulge this impulse? My emotions say yes but my brain says no. If it is up to the justice system, the response must remain objective and as unemotional as possible, as difficult as that may be.








With "eye for an eye" justice, it seems like a retaliatory attempt at preventing the offender from ever wanting to offend again -
because they now know what it is like to be the exact victim of the crime they committed - without the choice (like the victim)....

No true "justice" can be had with a violent event/crime....
Nothing can take back what was done....
But, some "eye for an eye" punishments can help in the aid of preventing it from happening again....


What are some other reality based choices that work....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleTODAY
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Registered: 09/25/03
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Loc: Metropolis City, USA
Re: An Eye for an Eye.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7965907 - 02/01/08 05:40 PM (16 years, 7 hours ago)

an eye for an eye is justice.


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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