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Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
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Re: Can Fox News just stop saying "Fair & Balanced?" [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7958594 - 01/30/08 11:42 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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CNN is much better than Fox when it comes to bias so I'll give you that. Fox is blatantly White House propaganda. There were stories this year of the White House directly planting stories and you can't forget Tony Snow jumping back and forth from Fox News Correspondent to White House Press Secretary. If that isn't conflict of interest I don't know what is.
As for the ignorance argument, the news media surely does dumb people down and helps bring the discourse down to a painfully ignorant level. When all you hear about the current election is whether a candidate's middle name happens to be Hussein or whether another candidate cries or wears an American flag pin lapel rather than what they stand for, it leaves a lot to be desired.
Perhaps this is naive but I think if the news media fed Americans a little more highbrow stuff in their news it may bring the discourse up a notch but they'll probably just keep catering to the lowest common denominator.
I definitely see your point about our culture being dumb to begin with though, where the news could help us though, it utterly fails.
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Edited by Virus_with_Shoes (01/30/08 11:50 PM)
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Can Fox News just stop saying "Fair & Balanced?" [Re: zorbman]
#7958624 - 01/30/08 11:49 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Twenty-five years ago you'd be right. Back then the networks ran news programs as a public service. They didn't much care whether they made money or not since they only represented about 30 minutes of programming per day.
I bristle at the suggestion there was a golden age of anything, times change, human nature doesn't.
While I'm aware of the vast differences in ownership and source and presentation of our news today, and don't have any information with which to rebut you, as you grow up you hear people talking about back in the day. And I'm convinced its mostly rosy-tinted glasses when we glance back, especially when we have less involvement and are frequently more alienated from pop culture as we get older.
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Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
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Re: Can Fox News just stop saying "Fair & Balanced?" [Re: johnm214]
#7958655 - 01/30/08 11:54 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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I'd guess PBS is a remnant of that, largely publicly funded and is very thorough and informative.
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: Can Fox News just stop saying "Fair & Balanced?" [Re: johnm214]
#7958696 - 01/31/08 12:03 AM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
I bristle at the suggestion there was a golden age of anything, times change, human nature doesn't.
I never said it was a golden age. It was just better.
Quote:
don't have any information with which to rebut you
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: Can Fox News just stop saying "Fair & Balanced?" [Re: zorbman]
#7958733 - 01/31/08 12:10 AM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Probably not.
If you think the media is bad now, how about back in 1898?
Remember how the Spanish-American War stated?
I find it hard to believe that much of anything is worse now than it was previously...
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
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Re: Can Fox News just stop saying "Fair & Balanced?" [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7958758 - 01/31/08 12:20 AM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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At least something exploded during the Spanish-American War. You gotta give the media credit for the Iraq War. They managed to bullshit the people into a war without so much as even a Gulf of Tonkin or Maine incident or any provocation whatsoever.
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: Can Fox News just stop saying "Fair & Balanced?" [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7958760 - 01/31/08 12:21 AM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
I find it hard to believe that much of anything is worse now than it was previously...
If history were a story of neverending progress we would be living in utopia by now. Things go in cycles. Lately we have been in a negative cycle when it comes to the mass media. I don't see how anyone can seriously say the mass media has generally improved over the last 25 years.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: Can Fox News just stop saying "Fair & Balanced?" [Re: zorbman]
#7958796 - 01/31/08 12:35 AM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Is America today a utopia compared to Dickensian London? Or for that matter, from huddling in the dark of a cave chewing on the legbone of some carion?
I think so.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: Can Fox News just stop saying "Fair & Balanced?" [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7958837 - 01/31/08 12:45 AM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Is America today a utopia compared to Dickensian London? Or for that matter, from huddling in the dark of a cave chewing on the legbone of some carion?
I think so.
There were quite a few ups and downs between those periods. One such down cycle is known as the Dark Ages.
History is not linear.
So you actually contend the mass media has maintained or even improved over the last 25 years?
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
Edited by zorbman (01/31/08 01:14 AM)
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Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
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Re: Can Fox News just stop saying "Fair & Balanced?" [Re: zorbman]
#7959768 - 01/31/08 10:54 AM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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Mass media's definitely sucked more in the past 25 years. Before that there was actually journalistic integrity such as when reporters investigated the Watergate break-in and basically got Nixon impeached. Also, let's not forget Vietnam when the news used to show a list of casualties on the nightly news and show all sorts of footage of the carnage. With the Iraq War they barely let reporters in to take footage of the war.
We're definitely in a media dark age. The media's failure to ask questions in the run-up to the Iraq War is a painful illustration of that.
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum



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Re: Can Fox News just stop saying "Fair & Balanced?" [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7959800 - 01/31/08 11:04 AM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: Or for that matter, from huddling in the dark of a cave chewing on the legbone of some carion?
Yes, but when you put it that way it actually sounds kind of fun.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: Can Fox News just stop saying "Fair & Balanced?" [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
#7959929 - 01/31/08 11:53 AM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Virus_with_Shoes said: Mass media's definitely sucked more in the past 25 years. Before that there was actually journalistic integrity such as when reporters investigated the Watergate break-in and basically got Nixon impeached. Also, let's not forget Vietnam when the news used to show a list of casualties on the nightly news and show all sorts of footage of the carnage. With the Iraq War they barely let reporters in to take footage of the war.
You are incredibly misinformed if you think the media was even half-way neutral on the Vietnam war. They didn't say one single bad thing about it until it had been going on for *10* years. And you are the first person I've heard suggest that the news showed lists of dead Americans every night.
Do you have a source for that?
The press was even more a government mouthpiece then than you think it is now.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
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Re: Can Fox News just stop saying "Fair & Balanced?" [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7960038 - 01/31/08 12:40 PM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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You're unbelievable. First, during the height of the Vietnam War there was in fact a list of American casualties listed on the nightly news and this had the very palpable impact of bringing the horror and carnage of the war home to the American public. It was not only this list but also the images of carnage that photojournalists brought home for the world to see. This started not 10 years after the war as you ridiculously suggest but this was done as the casualties began mounting in the late 60s.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-12-31-casket-usat_x.htm
"During the Vietnam War, the image of caskets arriving at Dover became a staple of the nightly news. The phrase "Dover Test" later came to signify public tolerance, or lack of it, for mounting war casualties.
Since 1991, the media have been banned from covering the arrival of remains at Dover. The air base houses the military's largest mortuary, where bodies are prepared for burial before they are sent to the families' hometowns. "
During this current war, the media is FORBIDDEN to show our dead soldiers from coming back from the war and you're going to argue that the press was more complicit back then? That's a weak, pathetic argument.
Tell me... have you seen anything of this caliber come out of our media recently?
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Edited by Virus_with_Shoes (01/31/08 12:59 PM)
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: Can Fox News just stop saying "Fair & Balanced?" [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
#7960089 - 01/31/08 12:58 PM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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A: That picture was 1972, *13* years after the first US involvement. I'm not denying that in the LATER years the media was critical, but they had a hands-off policy for the early 60's.
B: From the Museum of Broadcast Journalism...
Quote:
These incidents were dramatic, but far from typical of Vietnam coverage. Blood and gore were rarely shown. A bit less than a quarter of film reports from Vietnam showed images of the dead or wounded, most of these fleeting and not particularly graphic. Network concerns about audience sensibilities combined with the inaccessibility of much of the worst of the suffering to keep a good deal of the "horror of war" off the screen. The violence in news reports often involved little more than puffs of smoke in the distance, as aircraft bombed the unseen enemy. Only during the 1968 Tet and 1972 Spring offensives, when the war came into urban areas, did its suffering and destruction appear with any regularity on TV.
For the first few years of the living room war most of the coverage was upbeat. It typically began with a battlefield roundup, written from wire reports based on the daily press briefing in Saigon--the "Five O'Clock Follies," as journalists called it--read by the anchor and illustrated with a battle map. These reports had a World War II feel to them--journalists no less than generals are prone to "fighting the last war"--with fronts and "big victories" and a strong sense of progress and energy.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Re: Can Fox News just stop saying "Fair & Balanced?" [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7960116 - 01/31/08 01:07 PM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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Sound familiar?
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
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Re: Can Fox News just stop saying "Fair & Balanced?" [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7960127 - 01/31/08 01:11 PM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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When the involvement began in 1959 it was largely a CIA operation with "military advisers" being the majority of the relatively small presence in Vietnam. So yes, technically it was 13 years after the first American military touched down in the country but American involvement didn't really become significant until March 1965 when the first American Marines were deployed, which really began the ground war.
This is when the casualties really picked up as you can imagine. Thus as the NTM website states, during the 1968 Tet Offensive suffering and destruction began to appear with regularity - 3 years after the beginning of the ground war not 13.
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Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
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Re: Can Fox News just stop saying "Fair & Balanced?" [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7960181 - 01/31/08 01:28 PM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: A: That picture was 1972, *13* years after the first US involvement. I'm not denying that in the LATER years the media was critical, but they had a hands-off policy for the early 60's.
Exactly, they had a hands-off policy before the ground war and US casualties began mounting.
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BrAiN
Art Fag


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Re: Can Fox News just stop saying "Fair & Balanced?" [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7960182 - 01/31/08 01:28 PM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: A: That picture was 1972, *13* years after the first US involvement. I'm not denying that in the LATER years the media was critical, but they had a hands-off policy for the early 60's.
They got their gore in there ... all taken by USA photographers during the 60's in south vietnam
1963 photo:

1965 (notice a dead soldier on the cover of LIFE back in 65)

1966:

1968 photo:
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Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
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Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
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Re: Can Fox News just stop saying "Fair & Balanced?" [Re: BrAiN]
#7960189 - 01/31/08 01:30 PM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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The defence rests.
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HighHat
Repeat Gold Medal eBay -TiVoist



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Re: Can Fox News just stop saying "Fair & Balanced?" [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
#7960368 - 01/31/08 02:13 PM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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Why do I see the accusation "Youre ignorant!" becoming the new "Youre racist!" sometime in the near future?
-------------------- Have you ever felt like you were wearing a hat, but you weren't? "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" -Letter from the Pennsylvania Assembly, November 11, 1755 This profile is strictly for role-playing. Any alleged association with illegal activities is purely fictional. Any images depicting illegal activities are photo-shopped or stolen.
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