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Invisiblegus330
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: zango]
    #10554123 - 06/22/09 02:55 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

this will be my second mono tub grow cand i used b+ on the last wanted to know a different strain to use that has high yeilds and high potency and very easy to grow


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: gus330]
    #10554161 - 06/22/09 03:02 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

For an in depth look at most different types of cubes, look at some of my most recent posts in this thread.

Here's some tips based on my experience with this subject.

High Yields? If you grow from multispore, you'd do best with a classic cube race... one that is popular and sold by many vendors. If you grow from agar, any cube will do... just isolate a good substrain.

Potency? Multispore is a turkey shoot, agar will potentially allow you to select a more potent substrain. A few cube races are reported as being more potent than others... but there is no scientific evidence to strengthen the potency argument. Everybody wants the answer to this question... but all we have is opinion.

Easy to grow? All cubes grow in the same conditions, if you can grow B+ you can grow anything else.

My opinion? I'd try Penis Envy.


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OfflineLivingston
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Rose]
    #10554744 - 06/22/09 04:36 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

hey bro,

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Quote:

Livingston said:
Hey guys,

Thanks I'm glad we are all in agreement...now we just have to make everyone else use our nomenclature...good luck to us with that!  (maybe after Cervantes changes his profiles people will start using the proper terms, that would be great!)




I made a few changes to my profiles, but didn't misuse the term very often at all (I may have missed one or two... that fucker's long, and with all the links and stuff, it is becoming a nightmare to edit). However, there are a number of quotes from others and I have left those as they were originally written.




Great!

Quote:

Cervantes said:
If RogerRabbit and Paul Stamets use the word 'Strain' when describing a different cube race... the usage of the word is very wide spread.




Yea that's too bad because they are misusing the term big time.  For example most people here consider each spore from a print of B+ to be a sub-strain (or each mating of hyphae upon fruit formation to be the sub-strain).  But RR doesn't agree with Pauls' use of the strain and visa verse it seems.  But I think we have it right...

Thanks :smile:


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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Livingston]
    #10554804 - 06/22/09 04:46 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Hey again Cervantes,

I forgot to list how our Trinomial nomenclature could work:


Variety = var.

ex. P.cubensis var. PE



Subvariety = subvar.

ex. P.cubensis var. PE subvar. APE



Race = r.

ex. P.cubensis r. Transkei


Combos:

ex. P.cubensis r. Transkei var. AT (Albino-Transkei)

ex. P.cubensis r. Transkei var. AT subvar. ATS (Albino-Transkei-Sporeless)


Does that make sense?


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Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (06/22/09 04:53 PM)

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Offlinedamian
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Livingston]
    #10554840 - 06/22/09 04:49 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Sup guys, I have a question:
I was reading the Mushroom FAQ, this one to be exact:
http://www.shroomery.org/5132/Which-spore-strain-should-I-order

It says there is no "bad" strain nor one godly strain, if so I'd like to know; whats stopping anyone from just buying the cheapest strain/spore ?

Thanks

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Invisiblebait_
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: damian]
    #10556302 - 06/22/09 09:06 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

each sponsor pretty much has a set price for syringe/print no matter the strain

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Livingston]
    #10556393 - 06/22/09 09:24 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Livingston said:
Hey again Cervantes,

I forgot to list how our Trinomial nomenclature could work:


Variety = var.

ex. P.cubensis var. PE



Subvariety = subvar.

ex. P.cubensis var. PE subvar. APE



Race = r.

ex. P.cubensis r. Transkei


Combos:

ex. P.cubensis r. Transkei var. AT (Albino-Transkei)

ex. P.cubensis r. Transkei var. AT subvar. ATS (Albino-Transkei-Sporeless)


Does that make sense?




Sounds good to me. I've been working on updating the FAQ section of my 'Strain' journal today, and I borrowed much of what you said. :wink:

Although, I came up with a slightly different way to use 'Variety'.

Let me know if I got it right:

Why 'Race', 'Variety 'and 'Subvariety' are Often More Accurate Terms Than 'Strain':
When discussing different types of cubes in general, let's use the words 'Race' or 'Variety' instead of the word 'Strain'. Cubes, like humans come from all over the world... and there can be some variety from one region to another. It is time for some racial tension here in the world of cubes. Most cubes are named after the place where their original wild spore specimen was discovered... so Race is a logical word to use when describing these different types of cubes. At the very least, it is more accurate and far less confusing than the word 'Strain'.

In this thread, the word 'Strain' in quotation marks means something different than the word Strain without quotation marks. The word Strain refers to living dikaryotic mycelial tissue, the word 'Strain' refers to commercial spores.

The fungus known as Psilocibe Cubensis is a unique mushroom SPECIES. Shiitake is a unique mushroom species. Azures are their own species. Amanitas are a species... etc. It would be almost impossible and incredibly expensive to use two different fungus species and create a hybrid of the two. It'd be like successfully mating a human with a gorilla. However, a Caucasian human can effectively mate with an Asian human. Similarly, spores from one cube race can mate (or be mated) successfully with the spores of other cubensis races.

In the world of mycology, every single time a single spore's mycelium mates with another's to become dikaryotic, a unique Strain (no quotation marks) is created. Like baby humans, living cube Strains are each unique, and they tend to resemble their 'parents'. Each single viable spore print can produce thousands if not millions of unique strains. Most of these strains will produce mushrooms that look remarkably like the mushroom that produced the print from which they came.

The term 'Strain' is often used to describe the type of spores on a spore print or in a syringe filled with spores. When used in this context, the word 'Strain' is simply NOT ACCURATE. It is a word used by vendors (who cater to hippies) in order to make magic shroom spores sound more like different kinds of marijuana seeds. It is a word that suggests cubes are more varied from 'Strain' to 'Strain' than they actually are.

Marijuana is a plant, cubes are a fungus. Cubes come from SPORES, plants come from SEEDS. Cubes breathe OXYGEN and produce CO2 as a biproduct (like animals). Plants breathe CO2 and produce OXYGEN.

The misuse of the word 'Strain' is widespread, and only encourages vendors to sell as many different 'Strains' as possible in spite of their obvious similarities. When people talk of commercial cube 'Strains' this leads to confusion and misinformation. Vendors (especially the shady ones) thrive on this misinformation.

An African, an Asian and a Caucasian are all undeniably human but there are obvious differences between each race. Even on a smaller scale... every single town (and sometimes neighborhood) in Great Britain features a slightly different dialect... and yet, there is still room for great diversity from one person to another in said towns... even though, when compared to a different race, most Brits tend to look alike.

Still, the world of genetics is often a funny thing, and sometimes spores will produce some surprisingly unique and unexpected strains... strains displaying recessive genetic traits and mutations that nobody could predict... again, like humans. These unique cubes can be selectively bread until these unique traits become common, even via multispore inoculation. This new, unique cube may be marketed as a new 'Strain' but it is really just a unique 'Variety' of cubensis spawned from its original race. Still, many vendors market each unique variety as a new 'Strain'.  In general, every single commercially available cubensis RACE, is actually a domesticated VARIETY of the original specimen. Domesticated cubes contain intentionally limited genetics in order to increase the likelyhood of achieving the desired results, sort of like dog domestication and subsequent breeding.

Over time and multiple generations (spore to fruit to spore) a cubensis Variety can become genetically limited by inbreeding. This means results from multispore inoculation can become more consistent, and the likelihood of accidentally stumbling upon unique traits reduces. If a commercial cube's genetics become too limited, the inbreeding can produce undesired effects. In general, too much inbreeding will eventually lead to problems.

Annother classification for different types of cubes is the 'Sub-variety'. For example, by using spores from each variety of cube, Workman crossed PF Albino (Probably a variety of the Matias Romero race) with Penis Envy (Probably a variety of an Amazonian or Columbian race) and produced the Albino Penis Envy. Albino Penis Envy is both a sub-variety of PF Albino and Penis Envy.

Since all this 'Variety' and 'Sub-Variety' talk can get very confusing, go ahead and use 'Race' if you prefer. There are racial differences between mushrooms, often due to natural selection based upon where they first grew... and sometimes varietal differences due to unnatural selection performed by mycologists.

Finally, there are different 'Brands' of cubes. A Sporeworks Brand syringe full of Penis Envy spores may have a slightly different ethnic diversity than a Ralphster Brand or Hawk's Eye Brand syringe of the same cube.

All of that said, vendors use the term 'Strain'... and n00bs learn the term from vendors. This incorrect term is SO widespread, it is even used in the same way by Paul Stamets and even The Shroomery's own RogerRabbit. I'd love to use the proper terminology, and will do so from now on... but this will be an uphill battle. Most people recognize the incorrect term, and not the correct ones.

It seems the misuse of the word 'Strain' is only widespread in the world of magic mushrooms, but not in the rest of the mycological world. The fact that so many magic mycologists use incorrect terminology, further reduces our credibility in larger mycological circles. The misuse of this simple word can make our work seem illegitimate in the eyes of science.


The Truth About Different Cube Races:
Most cubes look alike.
All cubes grow in the same conditions.
The differences between cube races, or 'Strains' are, more often than not, minute.
Some races are known for fast colonization, or large fruits... even high potency.
BUT... these 'Facts' are often just vendor hype.
Your results will most likely vary.


The Truth About Different Cube Potency:
If you want something that is very potent, you should probably try a different species and avoid cubes all together... either that, or eat more cubes. Agar will potentially allow you to select a more potent substrain. A few cube races are reported as being more potent than others... but there is no scientific evidence to strengthen the potency argument. Everybody wants the answer to this question... but all we have is opinion. Most people agree there are differences in potency from one type of cubensis to another... but they seldom agree on which cube is the most (or least) potent.

The Truth About The Fastest Cube Race:
Some cube races are known to be faster or slower on average than others. There is evidence which suggests the fastest cubensis races produce the smallest shrooms and the slower races produce the most bulky fungus. Ultimately it all seems to even out in the end (with a few exceptions). Also, the slow cubes more frequently display unique macroscopic characteristics (in other words, they often look noticeably different from other races) while the fast ones usually look like average (or smaller than average) cubes. It takes more time to grow a large or unique cube. If you are looking for a cube which produces a LOT of quick BULK, you may be looking for a long time... and you'd better work with agar.

The Truth About Bulk:
Race has little to do with bulk. With some work, any viable cube print can produce good flushes. Good isolation on agar, and good fruiting conditions are the only proven ways to get consistently bulky flushes. There are no quick and easy solutions. If you want bulk, first you are going to need patience.

The Truth About Selecting Your Spores:
The thing that distinguishes most races is where they originated and who collected the first specimen. If you are interested in Tasmania, try some Tasmanian spores. If you like the story of how SG30 was resurrected by Shdwstr, try SG30. If you think Penis Envy looks fun, try it. They are all cubes. Pick one that interests you, and see if you like it.

The Truth About Multispore vs. Strain Isolation:
Agar allows you to work specifically with your spores but it costs more money and takes much more time. However, proper agar work will give you consistency from one grow to the next.

Multispore inoculation is a turkey shoot. You never know what you are going to get. Mother nature is unpredictable. If you intend to use multispore, it is suggested you work with a classic and/or popular cube race. Cubes that have been popular for 10 or more years tend to be popular for a reason, and their genetics have probably been limited by being bread over and over again... generation after generation. You are more likely to see consistent results via multispore, if you use a proven race.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Edited by Rose (06/23/09 12:10 AM)

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Offlinehold_fast887
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: bait_]
    #10556418 - 06/22/09 09:30 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum and would like to ask a question regarding the B+ strain... this is my first attempt at cultivation, unfortunately only 3 of my 6 cakes fruited. Anyhow, a few days ago, I noticed that around the 3 successful cakes, there was like a ring of black on the perlite, and blasts of it nearby, like something "shot" it from the cake.... and there are streaks of it on the caps as well.... what the hell is this black stuff?  I'm pretty sure they're ready to harvest, but am wanting to make sure that this isn't something I should be worried about...

Thanks so much.

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: hold_fast887]
    #10556473 - 06/22/09 09:41 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Sounds like spores... if your shrooms opened. This question is best reserved for the main Cultivation Forum and not this thread.


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Fiddlesticks.


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Invisiblegeorge castanzaM
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: hold_fast887]
    #10556481 - 06/22/09 09:43 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Take a closer look, it looks kind of purple hunh?  They are called spores.  Everything is fine.  Harvest, make a print, enjoy!


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OfflineLivingston
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: george castanza]
    #10559914 - 06/23/09 03:14 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Sounds good to me. I've been working on updating the FAQ section of my 'Strain' journal today, and I borrowed much of what you said. :wink:


 

Thanks that is a nice compliment :smile:  Nice monologue!  I have a few notes on it but overall I think it's great.


Quote:

Cervantes said:
Cubes, like humans come from all over the world... and there can be some variety from one region to another.




Did you mean to use the word "variety"?  Or was it just a word you happen to use?  I ask because the use of variety in that sense is different than Variety in the sense of nomenclature.  Maybe something like this would be less confusing?:

"...and there can be some genetic or physical differences from one region to another."



Quote:

Cervantes said:
These unique cubes can be selectively bread until these unique traits become common, even via multispore inoculation.




bread = bred :wink:




Quote:

Cervantes said:Although, I came up with a slightly different way to use 'Variety'.

Let me know if I got it right:

...

Since all this 'Variety' and 'Sub-Variety' talk can get very confusing, go ahead and use 'Race' if you prefer. There are racial differences between mushrooms, often due to natural selection based upon where they first grew... and sometimes varietal differences due to unnatural selection performed by mycologists.




A few thoughts I had last night:

We might want to use the term Race with caution.  We are working on the knowledge that there will be genetic variations between Races.  But we have no data to prove it.  So to cover out butts maybe using Race for the continent from whence the strain comes and for island strains is most appropriate.  I am thinking it is easier to argue that *all* strains from one continent are a Race then to argue that *each* strain from isolated areas of one continent are each a Race (even though the latter is most likely true, we just can't *prove* it).


Here is what I was thinking about.  Please let my know your opinion.  I hope we are not getting to confusing for people...

Race:

(for continents)
P.cubensis r. South Africian var. Transkei

P.cubensis r. South American var. Venezuelan
P.cubensis r. South American var. Ecuador

P.cubensis r. North American var. Mexican
P.cubensis r. North American var. Texas

(for islands)
P.cubensis r. Puerto Rico
P.cubensis r. Cuba


Variety: (same as before)

P.cubensis var. B+
P.cubensis var. PE
(PE could be a Race as it's from South America but it's been so heavily inbred and outbred it might be best labeling it a Variety.  What do you think?)


SubVariety: (same as before)

P.cubensis var. PE subvar. APE


Quote:

Cervantes said:In general, every single commercially available cubensis RACE, is actually a domesticated VARIETY of the original specimen. Domesticated cubes contain intentionally limited genetics in order to increase the likelyhood of achieving the desired results, sort of like dog domestication and subsequent breeding.





--------------------------
EDIT: I misunderstood your meaning.  I thought you were saying that all strains sold by vendors were a Race.  My bad.  Correct me if I'm wrong but were saying that of the strains offered at a vendor, those which are a Race are really a domesticated Variety of the specimen (e.g. Race)?
--------------------------

You have the correct line of reasoning but it sounds like you mixed the terms up.  I could be wrong but how does my version of your sentence sound:

"In general, every single commercially available cubensis 'STRAIN', is actually a domesticated VARIETY of the original specimen which is usually a Race."


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (06/23/09 03:27 PM)

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Livingston]
    #10559981 - 06/23/09 03:26 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I updated the post in my forum and added a thank you for your help.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=7955834&page=0&vc=1#7955834

I agree with everything you said... but I have thought about 'Race' and think I will stick with it for now.

When it comes to 'race' the term can be misleading and applied incorrectly, but in general, cubes are named after the place where the original spores were found... if we're going to misuse a word, RACE is much less confusing than STRAIN.

I agree, continental races are the simplest and easiest way to categorize by race, and I hint at that in my monologue... but...

The fact is: SOME people will read that monologue and try to use the correct terminology, others won't. If the people simply start to misuse RACE instead of STRAIN, we'll be heading in the right direction.


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OfflineLivingston
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Rose]
    #10559997 - 06/23/09 03:29 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Cool.  Sounds great to me.

I think your efforts are not in vain.  Give it a few weeks and I bet people will start using more correct terms.  And I thank you for that!  You are right that to gain more respect our community needs to start using the correct verbiage and terms.  Thanks man, you are a great resource here!

And did you notice what I edited in my last post?

EDIT: I misunderstood your meaning.  I thought you were saying that all strains sold by vendors were a Race.  My bad.  Correct me if I'm wrong but were saying that of the strains offered at a vendor, those which are a Race are really a domesticated Variety of the specimen (e.g. Race)?

Thanks bro :smile:


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Livingston]
    #10560014 - 06/23/09 03:33 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

You got it! That is what I was saying.

Thank you.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Rose]
    #10560081 - 06/23/09 03:51 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

This has been a fun thread. Almost 100,000 views!


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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Rose]
    #10560112 - 06/23/09 03:59 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I am going to drop it, but I don't have the heart to lock it!


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: george castanza]
    #10560117 - 06/23/09 04:01 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I don't blame you.


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Fiddlesticks.


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Invisiblegeorge castanzaM
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Rose]
    #10560187 - 06/23/09 04:17 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, I think that it would be best to let the op decide the fate of this thread.  I am begging that it does not get dumped.  Too much good info in this one to go to waste (imo).
I am inclined to agree that more people will read the race thread if it is locked (keeps it cleaner) and it should make it easier to direct strain discussion to your journal, like you said, if it does not work we can always unlock your strain thread.
Once again, very nice job Cervantes! :bow:


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KRAMER CAKES



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OfflineCarcass
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: george castanza]
    #10560394 - 06/23/09 04:55 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

i think this topic should be sticky...

:confused:

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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Carcass]
    #10560447 - 06/23/09 05:06 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

It is. New thread.


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Fiddlesticks.


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