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apoonanor
Time & Space Traveler

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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: badman]
#10453120 - 06/04/09 11:19 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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THAT was the answer i was looking for. the genes are in essence, too different . it seemed like the real reason it hadn't been done yet was funds. i figured something like this would take some form of gene manipulation to be able to cross the two unrelated species and the reason it hadn't been done is purely financial. i would imagine as these sort of technologies become more common in the above ground world, they will become more accessible to those working underground. thanks for the info. i knew someone here would be able to answer my question.
Edited by apoonanor (06/04/09 11:22 AM)
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Rose
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: apoonanor]
#10454617 - 06/04/09 03:09 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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That said, I imagine a thread in Advanced Mycology would get you even more info. The folks in there have probably come to the same conclusion... but some of them may have actually tried to do it.
This thread really draws the newbies and cube lovers, discussion about other subjects, while interesting, is not this thread's area of expertise.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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badman


Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 4,039
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: apoonanor]
#10456549 - 06/04/09 08:34 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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The genes are indeed different although they will have some common genes and possibly some matching chromosomes, however this need big bad machines to see the DNA and chemicals to 'arrest' and stain the cells so all the DNA can be seen. All the dna would have to be analysed to see what is needed to make a full complement. This is not hard to do but once you know what missing you need a good replacement. This would be very very hard, pain stakingly hard and time consuming as there is no science only trail and error, mostly the latter.
The only way I can think of for it to be done is to artificially introduce DNA (however many chromosomes which are lacking)into the spores/cell of one species so they match. But, this will most likely require duplicate chroms or removal and this will cause all sorts of problems and again trail and error. In effect you would be trying to trick the spores/cells to think they are compatible to get one dikaryon. Also introducing chorms (which are HUGE) in to a is near enough impossible. Cosmids (bigger plasmids) break from time to time, bacterial chromosomes, bigger still also break from time to time more so than cosmids due to size so chromosomes from a eukaryotic well you get the picture, breaks every where due to size.
The technology probably is there but there is no commercial gain especially in this field and underground studies for this will never happen the equipment needed will cost millions of pounds.
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LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs




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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: badman]
#10456661 - 06/04/09 08:54 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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What about grafting a P. Azure cap to a P. Cubenis stem? It works in plants like cacti, what about fungi?
Would that work or is that just the stupidest idea ever in mushroom cultivation?
And as for identifying the DNA strands, what about using PCR (Polymerase Chain Reaction) followed by DNA gel electrophoresis of samples from 2 mushroom species, like P. Azure and P. Cubenis, and compare them on the gels to a DNA ladder? Would that technique be too imprecise in calculating the number of genes in each mushroom? Its pretty simple (I've done it in a Bio lab) and it only requires some lab machines, like a centrifuge and a hot bath device. Could it be done at home?
Let me know.
A Curious Amateur DNA hobbiest, ~ LogicaL Chaos ~
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billycorgan55
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
#10457114 - 06/04/09 10:08 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Is there any kind of home cultivatable strain that is bioluminesant. I know the Jack-O-Lantern Mushroom is bioluminesant, but it is also poisonous. Is there any that are safe for home growing? Also what would be a good step up from cultivating P Cubensis?
-------------------- OM MADNE PADME OBIWAN LUKE HUM....
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LogicaL Chaos
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: billycorgan55]
#10457251 - 06/04/09 10:30 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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I actually do know of one bioluminescent species other than Jack-O-Latern, that is non-toxic and can be home-cultivated.
The species is Panellus stipticus or "Luminescent Panellus"
 Link to source ---> http://sporeworks.com/store/catalog/Panellus-stipticus--Luminescent-Panellus-p-16144.html
I found it for sale at TheSporeWorks.com, but its only in the form of culture syringes, so expect to grow from mycelium and not spores.
Someday, I wanna grow some bioluminescent 'shrooms and take some awesome time-lapse photos.
So Check it out.
Trippy Mushrooms Abound ~ LogicaL Chaos ~
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Rose
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: billycorgan55]
#10457737 - 06/05/09 12:32 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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To answer the rest of your question, concerning something other than cubes...
If you want something slightly more challenging than cubes try pan cyans.
If you want something as easy as cubes (and much more bulky) try Mexicana A or Atlantis 7. Check 'em out! I can't believe these things aren't more popular.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (06/05/09 12:39 AM)
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badman


Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 4,039
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Rose]
#10458341 - 06/05/09 05:20 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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PCR is really only suitable for individual genes and sections of genes, whole genomic DNA PCR probably wouldn't work, but im not 100%. We'd need to identify more than a few strands so impractical. PCR is really only used to amplify genes or replicate from a tiny sample or diagnostic test for genetic diseases like Huntington's
A graft like peyote to san pedro with mushrooms could work with certain shrooms ive never heard of it though. I think they may be too delicate to do so but would be cool to see.
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apoonanor
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: badman]
#10458426 - 06/05/09 06:24 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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now THIS is the damn strain discussion this thread needed. much thanks guys. this is something i had been curious about for a while but didn't really know how/where to approach the questions i had. i honestly believe that as gene manipulation becomes more and more popular in the above ground realm, it's only a matter of time before the principals get simplified to a point where they can be executed outside of a multimillion dollar lad. gene manipulation is one of the fastest moving areas of science and i feel it's only a matter of time before it becomes simplified and considerably more mainstream.
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badman


Registered: 06/14/06
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: apoonanor]
#10459264 - 06/05/09 10:56 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm not so sure about this, not only does it require a lot of skill to manipulate genes, even the most simple of DNA teks like infecting E.coli with a recombinant human plasmid or ligation of genes, the equipment needed will not get cheap enough for you and I to buy, if does then there has to be the biggest breakthrough in genetics as we know it.
A lot of the chemical buffers used are also licensed product as the are cancer inducing. A simple P200 pipette costs at least £80 and the cost of some purified enzymes which are needed will make you jaw drop through the ground.
As for it being mainstream it is in terms of mainstream industry but at home i really doubt it, I'm not a cynical person, quite the opposite but realistically the price of equipments will not reduce. For example a SEM been around for 70 odd years (i think) but it gets modified, improved and technologies added to it and the price goes back up.
But we can all hope one day that this kind of stuff buyable for us lot.
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apoonanor
Time & Space Traveler


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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: badman]
#10459371 - 06/05/09 11:20 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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but, wouldn't it just take someone completing the process once and then couldn't you just use spores (or culture) to reproduce the hybrid from there (given they were viable)? i understand the price to pull it off even once would be astronomical (even in commercial terms) but if it were possible to pull off say an azure/cube hybrid (even if just for shits and giggles), we could then reproduce it via cultures, spores, etc., no?
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badman


Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 4,039
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: apoonanor]
#10460006 - 06/05/09 01:40 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes that is true once it's done properly and you have a viable cell then a culture would follow suit and therefore spores.
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fatso



Registered: 05/14/09
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: badman]
#10461130 - 06/06/09 01:31 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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can anyone reccomend a good strain for a newb. im thinking mexi-cubes and/or B+. i am gonna use straw grow bags.
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My old Papaver Somniferums var. Gigantum and my Passion Flower...
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LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs




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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: fatso]
#10461200 - 06/06/09 01:45 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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I would say any P. Cubenis "Strain" is great to use, except the "novelty" mutated strains like Penis Envy or Red Boy, which are *slightly* harder to grow and print viable spores.
From what I've learned in this thread, there is really no *signifigant* differences between the "Strains": they all Cubenis. This means they ALL will grow on the same substrates, same environmental parameters, same colonization rates. The biggest difference between Cubenis "Strains" is their phenotypes, or the observable, physical traits of a "strain", like cap color or stem shape. There are subtle differences in mycelium growth rates (some more rhizomorphic than others) but the differences are pretty small.
So, pick any "strain" you find interesting. Remember, the "strains" of Cubenis are ALL Cubenis and grow ALL the same: its just the phenotypical features and the region where it came from that gives it its name. Cubenis "strains" names are pretty much marketing jargon, to get more customers to buy there spores.
--- I'd go for Mexi if your Mexican/Latin American and if your a Straight "B", go for the "B+". They all grow the same, so pick a "strain" that fits you.
Good Luck fatso! ~ LogicaL Chaos ~
Edited by LogicaL Chaos (06/06/09 01:52 PM)
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fatso



Registered: 05/14/09
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
#10461450 - 06/06/09 02:39 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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what the best substrate for them?
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My old Papaver Somniferums var. Gigantum and my Passion Flower...
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: fatso]
#10461749 - 06/06/09 03:30 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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In grow bags? Grain is the most cost effective... be sure you get a grow bag and not a spawn bag, spawn is meant to be poured into a casing.
Poo is the best substrate for cubes, in general... but many people don't wish to grow on poo.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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LogicaL Chaos
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Rose]
#10461843 - 06/06/09 03:46 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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That's slightly more complicated, but what I've read from Roger Rabbit's 2nd Comment on this tread (see page 1), it doesn't really matter what substrate you use. Many expert cultivators, like Roger Rabbit, say that substrate doesn't effect potency in any significant effect. In other words, growing a specific strain on Brown Rice Flour will not have a lower potency than that same strain on Rye Berries.
But most would argue that cow manure produces the highest yield than any other substrate, which makes sence because that's Cubenis natural habitat in the wild. But, it doesn't effect the potency: the randomness of spore syringes accounts for potency variation among different substrates. The draw-back of cow manure is that its harder to work with, so most people don't use it.
But, since you are new to growing, I'd suggest using Brown Rice Flour and in the PF-Tek.
But, since your growing in "spawn bags", you should use grains, like Cervantes above suggested. The problem with using grains is that you need a pressure cooker, which costs extra $$Money$$, so make a choice if you want to spend money now or later (if you want bigger yields with grain). If you do use grains, I'd suggest using wheat berries. I've had good success with getting the *right* amount of water in the grains than Rye. And the smell of them simmer in the kitchen is quite nice, while Rye is not so good. And, visually they just look nicer than Rye Berries, but of course that's just a personal preference of mine.
Its really up to you: any grain, like brown rice, will work. But grain bags require whole grains, like wheat berries.
~ LogicaL Chaos ~
Edited by LogicaL Chaos (06/06/09 03:55 PM)
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Rose
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
#10461898 - 06/06/09 04:05 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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I agree with you and Roger,
I just gave a simplified answer... I prefer to give as simple an answer as possible in this thread unless the person asking the question shows a true intellectual curiosity about all the reasons WHY something is the way it is. Some n00bs get bogged down by too much information.
Grain grow bags are the cheapest way to get self contained grow kits from vendors, and they do work well. A properly mixed grain grow bag will hold a lot of water (and the proper amount of water is a key to growing good flushes, FAE is another). Poo bags tend to be heavier, and more costly, both to purchase and to mail. If you are buying bags from a vendor, I'd stick with grain unless I had a nice amount of expendable cash.
I am a fan of using a pressure cooker, but I started with store/purchased grow bags, and I LOVE them. The most difficult work is already done for you, and you can watch the whole growth cycle easily. If you are accustomed to buying your magic fungus illegally... bags are an extremely cost-effective option.
As for poo... you are correct, people swear by it. I love it. Cubes flock to it in the wild. It may not be better than other substrates but it sure seems like it is. HOWEVER, it is not exactly cost effective unless you have safe and easy access to free poo. Poo/straw also holds a lot of water.
If you need to buy your own substrate, grain or coir is usually much cheaper than poo.
It all depends on how much you want to spend and what supplies you have easy access to.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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fatso



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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Rose]
#10462996 - 06/06/09 08:03 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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K. thanks for all the juicy info.
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My old Papaver Somniferums var. Gigantum and my Passion Flower...
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Livingston
Space Ranger

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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: apoonanor]
#10465699 - 06/07/09 12:34 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
apoonanor said: The term "Strain" when describing cubensis probably comes from weed. Weed DOES come in different strains, so the term was used to market shrooms to hippies familiar with the lingo.
I disagree. A strain in terms of intraspecies terminology is a different land-race. That is, P.cubensis from Amazon will be a different strain than one from Ecuador (for example). They will not have the same geno-type, or pheno-type, so they are different intraspecies strains...the same goes for Cannabis spp. with caveats (see below).
If one was to breed say a PE and SA together they would have a intraspecies cross. If one was to breed two different species of Psilocybe spp. (ex. P.cubensis x P.azurescens) that person would be making a intergenus hybrid. A interspecies cross could be called a strain once it reaches the F4-F6 stage and is pretty homogeneous phenotypes.
A strain title is a designation for that geno-type/area of origin, not all P.cubensis are the same strain, though they are the same species.
Humans are the same species but black and white people are different races (eg. strains to mycology).
In terms of genus Cannabis spp. there are three species: 1. Cannabis sativa L. f. ruderalis 2. Cannabis sativa L. subsp. indica 3. Cannabis sativa L. subsp. sativa
Ruderalis is not used in general. Breeding 'indica' to 'indica' or 'sativa' to 'sativa' gives one a cross, not a hybrid. That is a misnomer often found in the Cannabis spp. world. Within each species of Cannabis spp. there are many "land-race" strains, those which are pure and only inbreed. Those land-races are the original strains of Cannabis species. Just like I described for P.cubensis. Breeding strains of Cannabis 'sativa' to Cannabis 'indica' produces a intergenus hybrid....just like breeding P.azuras (sp?) and P.cubensis would provide an intergenus hybrid.
I hope that helps clear some things up.
Here are some examples of the use of "strain" and "species" in mycology. There are countless more examples online:
"Strain improvement in the cultivated mushroom Agaricus bisporus" -T. J. Elliott and F. A. Langton
Quote:
Summary Early attempts at genetic improvement in the cultivated mushroom Agaricus bisporus (Lange) Imbach were empirical, for little was understood of its natural breeding system. The mushroom is now known to be a secondarily homothallic species with a single multiallelic mating-type factor. This better understanding makes it possible to evaluate those breeding methods previously used and to suggest alternatives. Strain selection alone based on single spores, multispores or tissue culture may give improvement in the short term but it is unlikely to be as effective as methods involving controlled crossing. Mixing fertile strains may produce hybrids but it is difficult to identify them. It is better to use non-fertile isolates because only hybrids fruit. The earlier recognition of hybrids can be achieved using markers which are expressed in culture and genetic resistances may be especially useful in this respect. There is also a possible role for other Agaricus species which may be grown commercially and are more amenable to genetic manipulation than is A. bisporus.
"Taxonomic analysis of species and strains of oyster mushrooms Pleurotus (Fr.) Kumm. (Mycota, Basidiomycetes, Agaricales s. l.) collected at the Chair of Mycology and Algology, Moscow University. 1. Morphological peculiarities of Pleurotus species in vitro and in vivo." -Garibova, L. V., Zav'yalova, L. A., Insarova, I. D., Komarov, V. B., Lekomtseva, S. N., Chaika, M. N.
Quote:
Abstract: The morphological and cultural features of 6 species and 20 strains of Pleurotus mushrooms of different origin in the collection of the Chair of Mycology and Algology at Moscow University were studied. The species and strains differ in 4 parameters, namely structure of the aerial mycelium, zonality, colour, and diameter of colonies. Cluster analysis using the bootstrap showed that most strains of P. ostreatus formed a group with a high degree of similarity, including the Russian and foreign varieties of the oyster mushroom (Don 103, Don 112, Zommer and Florida) well known among the producer as well as strains of unknown origin. Individual groups were formed by 2 strains of P. ostreatus (from Germany and Saratov). The American strain US ME was found to be rather similar morphologically to P. pulmonarius and P. dryinus. The Far East strain DV 12 and unknown-origin strain KSH 52 proved to have characteristics similar to P. calyptratus. At the same time, the study identified some unrelated strains and species of the oyster mushroom: a strain from Baku, wild isolate of P. ostreatus, and the species P. eryngii. The main parameters playing an essential role in the fruitage of xylotrophic basidiomycetes (temperature, humidity and pH) were identified. The morphological features of basidia obtained in vitro in 6 species and 2 varieties of Pleurotus were studied in terms of 11 taxonomically significant morphological characters used to identify species in this subgroup. It was shown that, in vitro and in vivo, the shape of a cap, the colour of its cuticle, and the colour of the spore powder can be considered to be the most stable morphological characters of the Pleurotus species that have been studied. The results of the study demonstrate that the species diversity of xylotrophic basidiomycetes (micromycetes) can be preserved in a pure culture with subsequent reproduction of basidia, while preserving all the basic morphological characters of the species.
"Growing gourmet and medicinal mushrooms" -Paul Stamets
See Chapter 14: "Evaluating a Mushroom Strain"
"CULTURES: A Select Library of In Vitro Strains" -Paul Stamets
Quote:
The strains represented here are unique. Some are rare, not being available from culture libraries in North America, and potentially high yielding. We are constantly working with these strains, screening and maintaining cell lines. Fungi Perfecti is releasing the following strains for use on a conditional basis.
By purchasing these cultures, the customer agrees to the following terms. The purchaser is authorized by Fungi Perfecti to utilize our pure mushroom Spawn and Cultures for their own personal mycological experimentation, for the production of mushrooms for resale, and for the generation of additional mushroom spawn for the production of mushrooms for resale. The purchaser consents to use these strains for private use and not to generate spawn from them for resale or unauthorized distribution. Violators are subject to prosecution. The purchaser further agrees that mini-trials will be conducted prior to use in any commercial enterprise to assess their efficacy. The purchaser cannot and will not represent nor sell our strains in any form. Once shipped, Fungi Perfecti can not be responsible for the condition of any cultures. However, Fungi Perfecti will replace a culture if defective or should you lose it within one year of purchase at no additional charge.
Each strain is designated with the Stamets "P-value" scale, signifying the expansion of mycelium covering a 100 x 15mm petri dish (approximately 1,000–2,000 cell divisions). The first time a wild species is tissue cultured, the age is denoted as P-O. Thereafter each successive growth over the petri dish's surface is described in increments of P-l, etc. This library tries to maintain strains closest to their wild origins or closest to their peak fruiting potentials. Each culture comes in a 125 x 20mm glass test tube.
-------------------- Peace and Pasta
Edited by Livingston (06/07/09 04:12 PM)
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