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bajone
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Doc_T]
#10434091 - 06/01/09 07:44 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Dutch King VS Hawaii...
I always grow small hawaii, they just refuse to grow bigger then 10cm! Dutch King grows bigger, but still the potency of hawaii is much higher. Is there any trick to make hawaii strain grow bigger?
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apoonanor
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Doc_T]
#10441494 - 06/02/09 01:52 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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The term "Strain" when describing cubensis probably comes from weed. Weed DOES come in different strains, so the term was used to market shrooms to hippies familiar with the lingo.
in order to understand the difference between pot "strains" and mushroom "strains", i had to realize there really aren't different mushroom "strains" at all.there are different SPECIES but "strain" is another term for hybrid and apparently mushrooms don't hybridize quite as easily as plants. there is one species of cubensis. period. with pot breeding, you can actually cross what we consider different species (indicaXsativa) and you can create new "hybrids" or "strains". with mushrooms, due to the method of reproduction (which is COMPLETELY different from that of plants) you can't just put two different "strains" in an area and assume they will have "sex". with plants, each plant has either male or female reproductive organs. in mushrooms, not so. i've seen the anology "a cube is a cube" and for a while i thought it was just rhetoric but after learning more about how mushrooms reproduce and multiply, i finally get it. after years of pot breeding, learning cubes is an entirely different beast. i do have a quick question though, why is it there aren't any actual mushroom "hybrids". why is it noone has crossed a cube and a pan cyan? is this just something that is impossible or is it something that would just take more lab space and time than it's worth? i will admit, i'm still new to a lot of this so if this is a redundant question, please disregard. i'm just trying to absorb as much info as possible.
Edited by apoonanor (06/02/09 01:53 PM)
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Rose
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: apoonanor]
#10441921 - 06/02/09 03:06 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Pretty close apoon.
You CAN cross cube 'Strains". Falbino is a cross between 2 strains (PF Albino X F+), so are Penis Envy 6 (Penis Envy X Texas), Albino Penis Envy (Penis Envy X PF Albino), Penis Envy Uncut (Penis Envy X PF Albino), and Redboy (An old, non-viable Redboy print X Puerto Rican X Redboy once again).
As cube cultivation goes, crossing cube strains is one of the more difficult things you can attempt to do... but it is far from impossible... with patience and good sterile technique, you should be able to have some success... but simply crossing a "Strain" does not mean the "Strain" will look like you would hope.
As you can see, most people cross a common strain with a mutant strain, in hopes of passing the mutant trait to a better producing strain. In the case of the Redboy, RR crossed an old print with PR so he could save the historic strain, especially since he had limited Redboy spores and they were around 20 years old. His intent was to cross the Redboy with PR, then cross it with Redboy again. The "New" Redboy has some PR genetics but they have mostly been crossed back out of the resurrected strain. Cool stuff. PE6 was RR's attempt to make a PE strain which produced more spores... this "Strain" was leaked before he had stabilized it, so sometimes it looks like Texas and sometimes it looks like PE... also, it sometimes looks like a mix of the two. PE Uncut, was Workman's attempt to make an albino PE strain, this attempt failed, but it did create a "Strain" which looked like uncircumcised penises. APE was Workman's successful attempt at the same thing.
Crossing a cube with a pan cyan has never worked, nor has any other attempt to hybridize any other types of magic shrooms... not to my knowledge... although Mr G, who, "Created" B+ swears it is a Psilocybe cubensis/azurescens hybrid. MOST people disagree with his claims... and chalk it up as a marketing ploy. Nobody has been able to prove the B+ is an Azure hybrid. To add to the mystery, B+ spores supposedly display some Azure traits, and the caps look a bit like an Azure as well. There is a 99.99% chance this story is bogus (especially since Mr. G. seems bat shit insane)... but it does make an interesting footnote.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Mr. Bojangles
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Rose]
#10442415 - 06/02/09 04:10 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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I just finished my 4th flush of what I'm pretty sure was PE.
I ordered a PE syringe from ralphsteres a while back and just got to using it. Made an LC > rye > straw/poo in minitub to see how they do. They do not look like the normal PE I see on this site. They have some of the characteristics though: no spores, meaty stems. But the stems aren't the thick lookin fuckers that I see everyone else get...they're kinda normal like other cubensis strains. And the caps def do not look like PE caps, if you let them open more they'll split but they don't form the general penis shape. Some of my later flushes also produce spores.
Anyone encounter this? I just want to know for trading purposes so I don't piss people off when I say I'm mailing them a PE print and they get these.
-------------------- "It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong." Francois-Marie Arouet
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Rose
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Mr. Bojangles]
#10442528 - 06/02/09 04:25 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Pics?
Hard to say, but it sounds like PE... they only get BIG in perfect conditions... some penises are thin, some fat. The sterile shrooms, and spores in later flushes sounds like PE.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Roadkill
Retired Shroomery Mod



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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Rose]
#10443268 - 06/02/09 06:12 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said:
they only get BIG in perfect conditions...
some penises are thin, some fat.
-------------------- Laterz, Road Who the hell you callin crazy? You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch! Brainiac said: PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.
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evl
Guy


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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: bajone]
#10443888 - 06/02/09 07:50 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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has anyone heard of the shooting star strain?
i got a syringe of shooting stars off earths tounge.
has anyone tried them before?
mesasge me
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apoonanor
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: evl]
#10446157 - 06/03/09 06:30 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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You CAN cross cube 'Strains".
BUT, if i'm not mistaken, once you take a multispore from that "hybrid" (ie, spore print), you are back to square one. you're essentially back to the crapshoot that is multispore inoculants. correct? if you take tissure samples or strain isolates, you can keep those phenotypic traits (ie the penis shape or red spore print) but as soon as you take a multispore from it and say, make syringes, you're back to a generic cubensis. hence the ammount of people who buy penis envy syringes and claim they look just like every other cube. SO, in essence, there are no real mushroom "hybrids", there are phenotypic traits that can be passed on via culture. a TRUE hybrid would be a cubensis/azure. if i'm not mistaken, a TRUE hybrid is the crossing of two different species. am i correct?
one other question, what would actually stop someone from being able to cross say a cube and an azure? i'm just curious as to why this would be so difficult. i'm trying to learn as much as possible regarding genetics etc. are they just incompatible?
Edited by apoonanor (06/03/09 06:57 AM)
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Rose
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: apoonanor]
#10448149 - 06/03/09 02:58 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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You are sightly mistaken.
It can take a while to stabilize a crossed cube strain, but any crossed strain I have mentioned has been stabilized.
Penis Envy, the example you used, is not a crossed strain... but it may still vary slightly from batch to batch and from vendor to vendor.
Like I've said, Mother Nature is unpredictable. We can do the best we can... but we'll never entirely take nature's unpredictability away from mycology.
A wild strain has a lot of genetic variety, as you grow it to display certain traits, it will stabilize... after several generations, especially if you use prints from the shrooms which display the traits you want, the traits are more likely to be passed to the prints, which will influence the look of the next generation.
For more info about crossing strains, look at my journal, I have info about all strains, and the stories about how all the crossed strains came to be.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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apoonanor
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Rose]
#10448607 - 06/03/09 04:22 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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You are sightly mistaken.
i am only curious. i was in no way trying to state anything at all as fact. everything was a question. i was just trying to sort it all out. i was more curious as to why there are no cube/azure hybrids or azure/cyan hybrids. please do not take what i said as me trying to claim knowledge. if anything, i'm trying to find the truth. this place is a repository of knowledge and i figured this would constite legitimate "strain" or "hybrid" discussion as opposed to the usual questions of "how much does koi samui yield" or "what's the best strain to grow". just trying to stimulate discussion. nothing more
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Rose
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: apoonanor]
#10448692 - 06/03/09 04:37 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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You began your previous post with the phrase, "If I am not mistaken"... I wouldn't have said you were "Slightly mistaken" if you hadn't clearly suggested with your own words that you were looking for such feedback.
I know you are not stating things as facts, you've made that quite clear. But if you are looking for answers by stating your current understanding of the subject, you should expect the occasional correction when your current understanding is slightly off the mark.
As a newbie with 50 posts, who has been a member of this forum for a little over a month, you are quite knowledgeable, and you are asking unique questions. It is refreshing. I am very much enjoying our discussion and your approach to this subject matter. Don't mistake my occasional corrections for anything but what they are.
As for hybrids, I don't know why they haven't yet worked... nor do I know if it is impossible to hybridize magic mushrooms. It may be possible, but many have tried, and nobody yet has been able to prove success.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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badman


Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 4,039
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Rose]
#10449022 - 06/03/09 05:33 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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It may be theoretically possible to get cube/azure crosses or whatever but due to the unmatched number of homologous chromosome meiosis (spore production) can not occur this means if any offspring were to be produced (HIGHLY unlikely) they will definitely be infertile.
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LogicaL Chaos
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Rose]
#10450236 - 06/03/09 09:03 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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So, Cervantes, when a new mushroom "strain" becomes stablized, has it become a new "strain" of Cubenis?
And what's the difference between the store-bought P. Cubenis "strains" and the wild specium they came from? Have the store-bought "strains" been Artificially-Selected by humans to the point where they do not resemble their wild ancestors anymore?
And do store-bought "strains" have the same amount of phenotypical variation as the wild species they descended from, or are the variations more stabilized?
Let me know, Windmill Expert. Thanks in advance!
Trying the Learn Beyond just Cultivation
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Rose
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
#10451527 - 06/04/09 12:50 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said: So, Cervantes, when a new mushroom "strain" becomes stablized, has it become a new "strain" of Cubenis?
Sadly, it varies from vendor to vendor. As soon as a vendor markets a new 'Strain' it is a new strain. There is no science behind it, there are no rules, this is why it is so hard to differentiate between so many strains which may simply be renamed versions of other strains.
Also, If you grow some cubes and label them as "Snagglepuss Strain" and send the prints out to friends, you may see the "Snagglepuss Strain" being sold by a vendor soon after.
Quote:
And what's the difference between the store-bought P. Cubenis "strains" and the wild specium they came from? Have the store-bought "strains" been Artificially-Selected by humans to the point where they do not resemble their wild ancestors anymore?
It is hard to say what the original specimens of many 'strains' looked like... especially the older and more popular strains, which have been selectively bread for so long they have less chance for genetic diversity.
Selective breeding can be a good thing. The shrooms will likely look like you expect... BUT it can also be a bad thing... kinda' like inbreeding.
Sometimes a strain is selectively bread to a point where it is no longer as good as it once was. Psilocibe Tampanensis [not a cube] comes to mind, only one wild specimen was found, and after many years of narrowing the limited genetics, it started to look weird and became harder and harder to print. It took many years [and a lucky batch of less-mutated Tampanensis which miraculously grew and printed well] to get that shroom to STOP looking like a mutated form of its former self.
Penis Envy has also required quite a bit of restorative work.
Quote:
And do store-bought "strains" have the same amount of phenotypical variation as the wild species they descended from, or are the variations more stabilized?
Let me know, Windmill Expert. Thanks in advance!
Trying the Learn Beyond just Cultivation
Wild, or 1st generation prints have the most variation. You could go all Mad Scientist with a wild print and get a variety of results.
Most commercial strains have been 'domesticated' at least to some degree... but again, there are no rules for vendors. As long as the spores work, consumers usually don't care too much how domesticated their spores are.
Different vendors have different levels of quality control.
Ryche Hawk from www.thehawkseye.com often tells consumers what generation they are buying... unless a cube is very old and it is impossible to tell. Of all the Shroomery vendors, Hawk seems to keep his cubes as wild as possible... when possible.
Ralphster from www.ralphstersspores.com has a huge collection of cube 'strains' perhaps the largest in the world, but there is little info available on his site about any such history of his strains. Still, the newer 'Strains', especially the ones named after places they were discovered are more likely to still be a bit 'wild'.
The folks at www.sporeworks.com probably sell the most 'stabilized' cubes out there, but they also go to great lengths to keep their strains healthy and viable.
As for other vendors... I don't really know.
In general, a vendor will, at the very least, take a wild print and find a good producing strain on agar. So, the spores you buy will be 2nd generation or older.
If you have any questions about a 'strain' the vendor will usually provide you with the info you seek to the best of their ability.
I could go on... but I feel like I have written enough for one sitting.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (06/04/09 01:07 AM)
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LogicaL Chaos
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Rose]
#10451624 - 06/04/09 01:05 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Wow, that broken-down explaination really helped answer a lot of the confusion I had about store-bought, or vendor-sold "Strain" spores.
You really are an expert! And you seemed to know a lot about the "behind-the-scenes" methods/procedures of different spore vendors "creating" a strain from a wild variety. Its great to read about some of the wisdom you have: it makes me feel smarter with the Power of Knowledge !
Thanks a lot!
I hope other Mushroom cultivators or anyone who is interested in their vendor-bought spore reads your enlightening comment.
Again, Thanks Cervantes! You really know your hobby!
Finally Understanding the meaning of "Strain" ~ LogicaL Chaos ~
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Rose
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
#10451795 - 06/04/09 01:47 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm hardly an expert when it comes to cultivation.
I am however, fascinated by 'strains' particularly cubensis and mexicanae (my favorite). On an aside, the Mexicanae strains are categorized much more scientifically than cube strains. If you like cubes, try Mexicana A (not a cube) for a fun change of pace!
The vendors here are quite approachable (except for Ryche Hawk... who has been pretty reclusive since G. W. Bush started Project Pipe Dreams and Fanaticus was arrested). They are quite open about how they do what they do. I'm just the idiot who reads all about it.
I'm happy someone is interested enough to read my long-ass posts.
Ralphster, mjshroomer, Roadkill and Workman have all made some great posts about strains and their origins. When in doubt, search for a strain's name, and look for the first posts made by these people. You'll learn a wealth of info quickly.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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apoonanor
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Rose]
#10452362 - 06/04/09 06:55 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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the only reason i ask about the cube/azure or the azure/cyan is that in most circles, this is what would be considered a true hybrid. the crossing of different species. the so called "strains", though they show different phenotypic variations aren't really TRUE hybrids. strain is simply another word for hybrid.
"As a newbie with 50 posts, who has been a member of this forum for a little over a month, you are quite knowledgeable, and you are asking unique questions. It is refreshing. I am very much enjoying our discussion and your approach to this subject matter. Don't mistake my occasional corrections for anything but what they are. "
just new to fungus. not to genetics. in no way have i taken any offence to anything at all. i just know this can at times be a touchy place and in no way do i want to step on ANYONE'S toes. i just wanted to stimulate a little positive discussion in what seems to be an otherwise redundant thread. i think there is genuine discussion to be had on the ACTUAL hybridization of mushrooms, it's just not in the usual roundabout questions that get asked ad nauseum. i think a LOT of the redundancy comes from "vendors" who perpetuate the myth that there are different varieties of cubensis (for obvious monetary gain). there are phenotypic traits that can be distinguished in some varieties but their not necessarily new strains or varieties. correct?
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Doc_T
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: apoonanor]
#10452829 - 06/04/09 09:58 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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On the topic of true hybrids, you should start a fresh thread. And find or make up a word for the subject, because 'strain' is already taken for this other purpose. I like race or breed instead of strain, but it's too late now.
I doubt a true hybrid would breed, you'd end up with mules. But those might be good strong mules, so the first-generation cross is worth exploring.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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apoonanor
Time & Space Traveler

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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Doc_T]
#10452998 - 06/04/09 10:43 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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"I doubt a true hybrid would breed, you'd end up with mules"
but do you know why? are the genes just too incompatible? i wanted to start a thread about the subject but i didn't want to clutter up space with something if it had already been discussed but, i've had a hard time finding a way to search threads for the info i'm looking for. also, where would be the appropriate place to start such a thread: mush cult or advanced myc?
Edited by apoonanor (06/04/09 10:44 AM)
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badman


Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 4,039
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: apoonanor]
#10453079 - 06/04/09 11:04 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Unmatched homologous chromosomes ie one will have less than the other, hence during Metaphase 1 there is an 'overlap' of chromosomes. This will 'confuse' the cells when dividing and they will do this incorrectly or not at all. The only way I reckon a cube/azure or cube/pan cyan is by GM if this is even possible (sounds expensive and no-one will do it cos they're illegal fungi).
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