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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: infinitechaos7]
    #10043632 - 03/26/09 03:10 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

infinitechaos7 said:
We don't need scientific studies to make promising speculations about potency.




True, but in previous posts you have suggested your speculation was fact. That is misleading, especially since many n00bs frequent this thread.

Quote:


Set and setting, as Cervantes indicated, does play a big role.  However, its role is more experiential - it impacts the nature of the experience.  I think of potency more as determining the magnitude of the impact that set and setting may play in the overall experience.





While I don't entirely disagree with you, I do want to add this:

Set and setting have been scientifically studied... and there have been peer reviewed publications about the effects of set and setting on a tripper. The same can not be said about the potency of any one strain and how it compares to any other strain.

Scientific journals are not the be all and end all... but, without such studies one is only left with the opinions of laymen.

For every person who says a strain is potent, there is another person saying it is not.

PE is potent enough, but it is by no means a super strain.


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Offlinedead
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Rose]
    #10044068 - 03/26/09 05:51 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If you mixed the spores of the two strains, when they would germinate the monokaryons of each would not be compatible with each other in the formation of the dikaryon which is necessary for fruiting body formation.  You would have a mixture of PE and Hawaiian dikaryons duking it out.




Complete and total UTTER BULLSHIT.

Do you know how APE was created?

Yep, that's right. Crossing two strains. Basically, letting monokaryotic mycelium from two strains - PE and PF albino - mate with each other, creating a dikaryotic mycelium which was a cross of both strains. This became Albino Penis Envy with a few generations of selective breeding.

Tell me again it's impossible, please...


--------------------
"The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows."

Links:
:regularshroom:Nibin's Guide for Noobs
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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: dead]
    #10044098 - 03/26/09 06:10 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Actually, you are BOTH right.

Cross breeding is possible but rare, doesn't work every time, or everybody would do it.


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Offlinedead
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Rose]
    #10044105 - 03/26/09 06:14 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah well I just wanted to point out that mycelium of two "strains" (commercial strains) do not compete with each other. That is just a myth, and our mission is to stop misinformation and myths...

A strain, properly, is a pairing of hyphae, or a dikaryon. There are hundreds or thousands of these in each MS inoculated substrate. If every strain would fight with each other, no MS inoculation would ever succeed...


--------------------
"The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows."

Links:
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:regularshroom:some easy teks on bulk & grain prep. (my journal)


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: dead]
    #10044113 - 03/26/09 06:18 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Of course, BUT if you inject two strains into a jar, chances are you will have two competing strains growing in one jar. If crossing strains via multispore were THAT simple, cube cultivation would be much, MUCH cooler.


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Offlinedead
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Rose]
    #10044260 - 03/26/09 07:37 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Of course, BUT if you inject two strains into a jar, chances are you will have two competing strains growing in one jar. If crossing strains via multispore were THAT simple, cube cultivation would be much, MUCH cooler.




True, but it has been known to happen. People have (accidentally or on purpose) injected spores of 2 strains to the same substrate and ended up with some fruits with mixed genetics. So if you were to do lots and lots of MS jars with spores of 2 strains, chances are eventually at least one of them would produce at least one fruit with mixed genetics. Then you would clone that fruit, grow the clone culture, and take spores from the fruits that match your preferences. And start selective breeding until you have a stable strain.

So, in theory it would be possible, but it would be a long, long project doing it that way. A lot slower than learning to grow monokaryotic mycelium on agar...


--------------------
"The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows."

Links:
:regularshroom:Nibin's Guide for Noobs
:regularshroom:some easy teks on bulk & grain prep. (my journal)


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Invisibleinfinitechaos7
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: dead]
    #10044664 - 03/26/09 09:35 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:

...

Scientific journals are not the be all and end all... but, without such studies one is only left with the opinions of laymen.

For every person who says a strain is potent, there is another person saying it is not.

PE is potent enough, but it is by no means a super strain.





We have more than the opinions of laymen.  We have the opinions of scientists who are able to make educated speculations but unable to actually prove their speculations because of legalities hindering research options.

If you do not see PE as a "super strain" in terms of potency, then how would you define its widespread tendency to be extremely potent - a tendency not exhibited by any other strain?  I suppose one could attribute this to the effect that expecting PE to be more potent has on set and setting.  However, I feel as if many people use PE with no prior knowledge of its supposed superior potency and still experience extraordinary potency.

Quote:

dead said:

Complete and total UTTER BULLSHIT.

Do you know how APE was created?

Yep, that's right. Crossing two strains. Basically, letting monokaryotic mycelium from two strains - PE and PF albino - mate with each other, creating a dikaryotic mycelium which was a cross of both strains. This became Albino Penis Envy with a few generations of selective breeding.

Tell me again it's impossible, please...




I beg to differ that what I have said is complete UTTER BULLSHIT.  What I have described is what occurs the vast majority of the time.  What you have described is the minority occurrence.  It is very rare to find two monokaryotic mycelia from different strains of a species that are capable of forming a dikaryon.  The development of APE apparently was one of those rare occurrences.

I also did not use the word "impossible."  I will admit, though, that I should have said something like this instead of what I did:

"They would most likely not cross their genes if you put them in the same culture.  In basidiomycetes like cubensis meiosis (crossing) takes place only in the production of basidiospores.  If you mixed the spores of the two strains, when they would germinate the monokaryons of each would more than likely not be compatible with each other in the formation of the dikaryon which is necessary for fruiting body formation.  You would have a mixture of PE and Hawaiian dikaryons duking it out in your culture."


Quote:

dead said:
Yeah well I just wanted to point out that mycelium of two "strains" (commercial strains) do not compete with each other. That is just a myth, and our mission is to stop misinformation and myths...

A strain, properly, is a pairing of hyphae, or a dikaryon. There are hundreds or thousands of these in each MS inoculated substrate. If every strain would fight with each other, no MS inoculation would ever succeed...




How do you suppose that two different strains in the same culture would not be competing?  Two dikaryons of two different strains in the same culture cannot combine in any way so each dikaryon would be competing for resources against the other.  However, this competition does not necessarily mean that the culture would be unsuccessful. 

Either both strains would be able to survive and later form fruiting bodies from the same culture, or the stronger dikaryon would overtake the weaker.  Either way, the culture could still be successful.  In the scenario that both strains survive, however, either strain would not have access to all of the resources within the culture.  Therefore, one might assume that the ability of each strain to optimally form fruiting bodies would be compromised.


Edited by infinitechaos7 (03/26/09 09:53 AM)


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Offlinedead
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: infinitechaos7]
    #10044712 - 03/26/09 09:50 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The development of APE apparently was one of those rare occurrences.




Oh it's a rare occurrence now? Give me a break. The way I heard it, Workman got the monokaryon of the PE to mate with the PF albino spores (or the other way around) with the very first try. If it would be that rare, don't you think there would have to be lots and lots of tries before success?

The way it was done, a jar of substrate was fully colonized with monokaryotic mycelium of one strain. Only one monokaryon, so as to give it no chance to develop into dikaryons before time. Then spores of the other strain were introduced to the fully colonized jar, where, as they germinated, they mated with the existing monokaryotic mycelium and formed a dikaryon - or several dikaryons actually.

Now if what you said was true, don't you think the spores would simply have mated with each other, if it was SO rare and hard for monokaryons of different "strains" to mate? Then of course they wouldn't have had anything to colonize, and the mycelium already in the jar would have stayed monokaryotic.

The name of the "strain" is simply a name given to a variety of cubensis found somewhere around the world. They are all the same species, and crossing of "strains" even happens in nature. This is called evolution...


--------------------
"The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows."

Links:
:regularshroom:Nibin's Guide for Noobs
:regularshroom:some easy teks on bulk & grain prep. (my journal)


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Invisibleinfinitechaos7
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: dead]
    #10044777 - 03/26/09 10:06 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dead said:
Quote:

The development of APE apparently was one of those rare occurrences.




Oh it's a rare occurrence now? Give me a break. The way I heard it, Workman got the monokaryon of the PE to mate with the PF albino spores (or the other way around) with the very first try. If it would be that rare, don't you think there would have to be lots and lots of tries before success?

The way it was done, a jar of substrate was fully colonized with monokaryotic mycelium of one strain. Only one monokaryon, so as to give it no chance to develop into dikaryons before time. Then spores of the other strain were introduced to the fully colonized jar, where, as they germinated, they mated with the existing monokaryotic mycelium and formed a dikaryon - or several dikaryons actually.

Now if what you said was true, don't you think the spores would simply have mated with each other, if it was SO rare and hard for monokaryons of different "strains" to mate? Then of course they wouldn't have had anything to colonize, and the mycelium already in the jar would have stayed monokaryotic.

The name of the "strain" is simply a name given to a variety of cubensis found somewhere around the world. They are all the same species, and crossing of "strains" even happens in nature. This is called evolution...




Can you spare the hostile attitude, please?  I'm interested in having an intellectual discussion about this topic.

Is there a link to documentation of what Workman did to obtain APE?  I will search for it, but if you can point me in the right direction it would make the search much easier.

I'm confused as to what you are asking here.  I do not think that the spores would have mated with each other.  Spores do not do any mating.  It seems odd to me that spores would be able to germinate on a substrate that is already entirely colonized by mycelium.  Would the already-established mycelium not consume the newly-introduced spores before they had a chance to germinate?  This is what happens when other contaminant spores land on mycelium - the mycelium consumes them before they have a chance to germinate.

Crossing of compatible strains in nature is not evolution - this is sexual reproduction and simply leads to an increased number and variation of traits upon which natural selection may act.  Evolution is natural selection selecting for the more advantageous of these traits.


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Offlinedead
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: infinitechaos7]
    #10044924 - 03/26/09 10:27 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

It was not my intention at all to be hostile. Sorry if I came out as such.

The APE thread is here: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5194890#5194890

The procedures are better explained there.


--------------------
"The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows."

Links:
:regularshroom:Nibin's Guide for Noobs
:regularshroom:some easy teks on bulk & grain prep. (my journal)


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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: infinitechaos7]
    #10044957 - 03/26/09 10:35 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Alright.  I did find this thread:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7777258/fpart/1/vc/1

But Workman seems to have never clarified the procedure he used.  I will read through it more carefully later because I have to get to class now.

This strain crossing stuff is new and interesting information to me and I will have to look more into it.  I based my initial comments off of my general knowledge of the life cycle of basidiomycetes which says that only two compatible monokaryons can form a dikaryon.  With this in mind, it seems that in order to cross two strains one would have to first ensure that they are compatible and capable of forming a dikaryon.  Maybe this is not as rare as I had initially thought it to be.  dead and Cervantes, I appreciate you opening up the door for me to step into the world of strain crossing.


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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: dead]
    #10044964 - 03/26/09 10:36 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dead said:
It was not my intention at all to be hostile. Sorry if I came out as such.

The APE thread is here: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5194890#5194890

The procedures are better explained there.




Thanks.  I didn't come across that one in my search.  I will look over it later.


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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: infinitechaos7]
    #10047654 - 03/26/09 05:36 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Is Amazon the same as PESA(Pacifica Exotica Spora Amazon)?
Same strain?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (03/26/09 05:36 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Dragonaut]
    #10048198 - 03/26/09 06:57 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I have book marked both of those threads by Workman,thanks guys that looks like it should lead to be some interesting reading


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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Blutjager]
    #10048799 - 03/26/09 08:17 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

After reading through those threads, it turns out I greatly overestimated how difficult it is to introduce compatible monokaryons within the same species.  I was also unaware of some of the other techniques mentioned in those threads like nuclear migration.  Interesting stuff it is.  Thanks much for guiding me in the right direction, guys!  :thumbup:


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OfflineBasement Boy
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: infinitechaos7]
    #10048860 - 03/26/09 08:24 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Jalisco

I had a jar of this going from just after the new year. I thought that after almost 3 full months I should have some decent stones in it so I shook it out to find a big fat "Zero". Now I will be the first to say that it was not the best medium as I did WBS not Rye Grass seed. I do know that people have had some luck with WBS before and gotten stones. Any ideas or suggestions? I have a few new jars going now on Rye Grass seed but if I am missing something I would like to try and fix it before 3 months go by. The jars are set with Tyvek tape over the holes that I used for Inoc. and then it has Micropore tape over the center hole for GE. The area that it is kept in is about the mid 70's for a temp on average. It does get light to the jars but I was thinking that this would not be an issue similar to cubes as long as it doesn't get the other pinning triggers as well.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Basement Boy]
    #10049030 - 03/26/09 08:45 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I'd get a new print, sounds like yours has bad genetics. Try Mex A Strain or Atl 7.

Sorry.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: infinitechaos7]
    #10049183 - 03/26/09 09:05 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

infinitechaos7 said:

If you do not see PE as a "super strain" in terms of potency, then how would you define its widespread tendency to be extremely potent - a tendency not exhibited by any other strain?




Fantastic, but misguided question, unless you have actually SAMPLED every single strain and actually KNOW what you are talking about.

Spend a few years on this website. Strain popularity, and potency lore, ebb and flow over the years. When I started here, Cambodians were all the rage, then Orissa, then Malabar, then Transkei. They are all great strains, but none of them are super strains.

Currently, PE is the strain of choice. Know why? Cause it looks cool, and of ALL the mutant cube strains, it is the best PRODUCING strain. Is it more potent than the average cube? Possible. Why? 'Cause vendors fucking love this strain. They've worked long and hard at perfecting it.

Also, it LOOKS WEIRD, and that alone will effect a person who takes PE for the first time. :wink: Set and Setting, man..

You want a super strain? Grow Azures! Cubes are cubes.


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Invisible13shroomsM
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: Rose]
    #10049958 - 03/26/09 10:50 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Here is a lil PE history/info/background 4 ya.

its a few pages long but a great read:headbang3:

PE artical


I cant wait for my try at PEs.:cool:

Im :syringe:inoculating 6 rye quarts 2morrow night.:crazy2:


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Offlinepotatonet
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Re: Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY! [Re: 13shrooms]
    #10050620 - 03/27/09 12:26 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

after reading the article on PE and APE.... holy crap, I think they are fugly but Im gonna try and get some of those soon...


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