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Invisiblescruffymafia
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Trichocereus Peruvianus?
    #7953016 - 01/29/08 09:25 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Hey,

I went to my nursery again to buy some more San Pedros and to see if i could get any T. Peruvianus.

They owner had some cacti that she was unsure about but they looked alot like T. Peruvianus - especially the pups.

This specimen was sold to me for cheap because of its bad health, due to really bad growing conditions (tiny pot, no food/water, wind, limited sun).

I have repotted now and given it a good feed and water, so it should start to look better in the next few weeks.

Could i get some help making a positive ID?











I am fairly well convinced it is a T. Peruvianus, but her uncertainty and the small spines made me wonder..

Cheers!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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Edited by scruffymafia (01/29/08 09:28 PM)


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Invisiblecpw1971
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: scruffymafia]
    #7953027 - 01/29/08 09:27 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Bridgesii I say
I could be wrong


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Offlinecasgoodie
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: cpw1971]
    #7953059 - 01/29/08 09:32 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

bridgesii sounds good


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Invisiblescruffymafia
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: casgoodie]
    #7953076 - 01/29/08 09:35 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Hmm i was thinking that it could possibly be bridgesii but the spine nodes are way too close and are 'stepped in' which is completely unlike bridgesii.


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Offlineplainswalker
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: casgoodie]
    #7953084 - 01/29/08 09:36 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

It doesn't look like Bridgesii at all to me.


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Offlinefelixhigh
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: scruffymafia]
    #7953102 - 01/29/08 09:40 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

A lot of noobs are going to say tons of bullshit here but before that happens I will say:

This is T. pachanoi. I liked it because it´s not the classic clone, looks like it´s seedgrown.


FH


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Invisiblescruffymafia
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: felixhigh]
    #7953284 - 01/29/08 10:05 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Do you get pachanoi's with such big spines?

Here is a pachanoi i bought from the same place today, the spines seem to disappear into its flesh toward the bottom.




Cheers for the input guys :laugh:


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Edited by scruffymafia (01/29/08 10:08 PM)


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Invisiblecpw1971
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: scruffymafia]
    #7953321 - 01/29/08 10:14 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

yeah it doesn't look like a pedro to me. the first set of pics I mean
your last set is a definite Perdro


Edited by cpw1971 (01/29/08 10:15 PM)


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Invisiblescruffymafia
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: cpw1971]
    #7953459 - 01/29/08 10:33 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Hmm yea it is very different from the pedro.

It is still a really cool cacti!

I believe that the best ways to define species apart are:

#1 - The flowers (none right now)
#2 - The growth point (top of cacti where the spines fold out)
#3 - The spines (pattern, number and size)

After considering this and viewing this picture of a Echinopsis peruviana (Trichocereus Peruvianus) from wikipedia:



I believe it is indeed a T. Peruvianus - possibly a hybrid, but it is still too sick to tell for sure.

Cheers!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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Edited by scruffymafia (01/29/08 10:36 PM)


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Offlineplainswalker
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: scruffymafia]
    #7953542 - 01/29/08 10:45 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Yes pedros can have long spines.


I think your cactus is pachanoi.


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InvisibleSheikCorp
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: felixhigh]
    #7953895 - 01/29/08 11:41 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

felixhigh said:
A lot of noobs are going to say tons of bullshit here but before that happens I will say:

This is T. pachanoi. I liked it because it´s not the classic clone, looks like it´s seedgrown.


FH




What peeps call T. pachanoi "long spine"?


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Invisiblescruffymafia
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: SheikCorp]
    #7953965 - 01/29/08 11:56 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Hmm possibly, i have never seen pachanoi pups as blue as the pups i saw on the mother cacti this came off.

If not, i will be acquiring some definite T. Peruvianus soon :laugh:


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Offlineroyer
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: scruffymafia]
    #7954091 - 01/30/08 12:25 AM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

scruffymafia said:
Hmm yea it is very different from the pedro.

It is still a really cool cacti!

I believe that the best ways to define species apart are:

#1 - The flowers (none right now)
#2 - The growth point (top of cacti where the spines fold out)
#3 - The spines (pattern, number and size)

After considering this and viewing this picture of a Echinopsis peruviana (Trichocereus Peruvianus) from wikipedia:



I believe it is indeed a T. Peruvianus - possibly a hybrid, but it is still too sick to tell for sure.

Cheers!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:




this looks more like a Cuzcoensis to me


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OfflineDr. uarewotueat
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: felixhigh]
    #7954618 - 01/30/08 06:41 AM (16 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

felixhigh said:
A lot of noobs are going to say tons of bullshit here but before that happens I will say:

This is T. pachanoi. I liked it because it´s not the classic clone, looks like it´s seedgrown.


FH




im with u on that felix, looks like a seed grown specimen of the real t.pachanoi of peru/ecuador (not backberg)


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Invisiblescruffymafia
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: Dr. uarewotueat]
    #7955485 - 01/30/08 01:09 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

I have to admit, i dont have a Peruvianus here :frown: i had my expectations up too high. I agree now that it is as Pachanoi.

Still cool, but not as cool as a Peruvianus.

Cheers for ya help :smile:


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OfflineFarFromHere
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: scruffymafia]
    #7965904 - 02/01/08 05:40 PM (16 years, 9 hours ago)

uarewotueat and fleix are right.

I think it's an non-P.C. T. pachanoi.

Not the blackberg clone, but a "true" T. pachanoi.

I think it is just as cool as T. peruvianus and is certainly more active than T. cuzcoensis.


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Invisiblescruffymafia
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7966005 - 02/01/08 06:08 PM (16 years, 9 hours ago)

Cheers for your input Teotz.

What does non-P.C mean bro?

How would you rate the long spine T. pachanoi to short spine T. pachanoi alkaloid contents?

Cheers!


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Offlineplainswalker
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: scruffymafia]
    #7966360 - 02/01/08 07:55 PM (16 years, 7 hours ago)

PC=Predominant Cultivar

It's the common pachanoi seen in stores. I don't know if I would call your pachanoi longspine, it's still small and it would have to grow quite a bit to really show its personality. Non-PC is a better name because it just designates that it's a pachanoi that is not the commonly available cultivar/clone. Also longspine is a poor name because of the fact that there is not two kinds of pachanoi (shortspine and longspine), there is a wide range of of possible phenotypes not only in spine length but also in the spination, spine color, areoles, notches, glacousness, etc. And because of this diversity and also differences in growing conditions, statements about high or low alkaloid content of your cactus are just speculation.


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OfflineFarFromHere
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: plainswalker]
    #7968470 - 02/02/08 12:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The name "long spine T. pachanoi" was made up by M. S. Smith to distiguish one of his clones from other T. peruvianuses.

It is not really T. pachanoi...

"Long Spine T. pachanoi" = T. peruvianus

If you won't take my word for it PM me and I'll send you some links.


Quote:

statements about high or low alkaloid content of your cactus are just speculation.




Right, Unless you have the same exact clone and it was grown in the same exact conditions then every cactus will be different.

Some are known to be more powerful than others such as T. peruvianus "Icaros" and T. peruvianus "Serra Blue" from S.S.

But most are highly variable in potency.

T. bridgesii monstrose var. clustering (Clone B) is ALWAYS potent and is very Peyote-like, with a heavy purge and bodyload and intense visuals.


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Offlineplainswalker
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7968563 - 02/02/08 12:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No it wasn't made up by M. S. Smith, it wasn't made up by anyone. Maybe you should check out some pictures of trichos from Peru and its neighboring countries, there is a lot of genetic variability down there. Spine length varies and is affected by a mix of growing conditions and genetics. You can see variation in spine length throughout the different species, it's not as simple as short spines equal pachanoi and long spines equal peruvianus. Kinda like how there are broad and thin phyllode varieties of acacia of the same species and also broad and narrowleaf khat.


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OfflineFarFromHere
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: plainswalker]
    #7968592 - 02/02/08 12:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

T. peruvianus do tend to have longer spines.

T. pachanoi spines are simply not clustered the same and they do not have V-shapped notchs, they have horizantial deppressions.

I think most "Long-spined T. pachanoi" should be considered T. peruvianus or T. bridgesii, but not all of them.

I would not call the cactus in the pic a "Longed Spined T. pachanoi"


Could you get a pic of the areoles close up...

Try to find one that looks good.

I'm betting that cactus would look completely different if grown in another condition.


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Invisiblescruffymafia
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7969331 - 02/02/08 04:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I will get some close up pics when i get my digital camera back, my cell phone pics are crap.

The cactus was grown in pretty crap conditions, tiny pot, limited sunlight, no food, over crowded, too damp - it even had algae growing on it!

Now its on a smoking hot deck, getting 12+ hours of direct sunlight a day, got some sheep crap to chew on, huge pot and it is nearly always dry.

Most of the aeroles are pretty fucked from constant contact with other cacti. I will describe the bottom most aeroles which i think is the best representation of what the aeroles should look like, they have about 10 thick spines that go in all sorts of directions with one large spine (around 3cm long) that slope skyward. The aeroles are generally about 2 - 2.5cm apart. The aeroles are significantly larger from the confirmed San Pedros. They are dome like, white and fluffy and stick out from the cactus by about 2-3mm.

Hope that helps,
Cheers!


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Offlineplainswalker
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: scruffymafia]
    #7969418 - 02/02/08 04:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So if a cactus looks just like a South American pachanoi but had longer spines than you think it should, you'd decide it was a different species? That's silly to me. Bridgesii and peruvianus look different.

As for spine clustering I don't know if I agree. I just checked my PC pachs and although the spines are much smaller, some of the plants actually did have the clustering pattern associated with peruvianus (surprised me I thought they didn't). PC's from a different source did not have the pattern though. Pictures of your own Torres & Torres have a spine pattern appearing somewhat similar to peruvianus and if I am not mistaken that clone is thought to be from Chilean pachanoi.

And yes pachanoi can have v-notches.

Whew I am done with this.


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OfflineFarFromHere
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: plainswalker]
    #7971057 - 02/02/08 10:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Now its on a smoking hot deck, getting 12+ hours of direct sunlight a day, got some sheep crap to chew on, huge pot and it is nearly always dry.





Too hot isn't good.

Trichocereus can take daily waterings in extremely hot weather.



Quote:

I will describe the bottom most aeroles which i think is the best representation of what the aeroles should look like, they have about 10 thick spines that go in all sorts of directions with one large spine (around 3cm long) that slope skyward. The aeroles are generally about 2 - 2.5cm apart. The aeroles are significantly larger from the confirmed San Pedros. They are dome like, white and fluffy and stick out from the cactus by about 2-3mm.





That sounds more like T. peruvianus or Cuzcoensis.



Known active clone- T. pachanoi spp. Torres & Torres from Chile.



There are V-shapes on T. pachanoi but they are much more horizantal than those of T. peruvianus.


Known active clone- T. peruvianus "Serra Blue"




The V-shapped notchs of T. peruvianus are really shapped like "V"s.




Edited by FarFromHere (02/02/08 10:43 PM)


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Invisiblecpw1971
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7971219 - 02/02/08 11:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I got some Pedros that have v's that are just like Peruvians or Bridgesii.


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OfflineFarFromHere
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: cpw1971]
    #7971359 - 02/03/08 12:06 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

LOL. OK.


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Invisiblescruffymafia
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7971569 - 02/03/08 01:20 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Hmm, it seems to be making some real growth now. When it gains a few more inches and shows its real traits i will continue to try and ID it. It is just too fucked to make a positive ID.

Does anyone know how long the spines of real pachanoi's get? Mine are about 34mm at longest. With up to about 12 spines per aerole.

Churs!


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Invisiblecpw1971
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7972176 - 02/03/08 09:43 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

LOL  no really man







I found them on the newer growth though :cool:
  and to the OP..
    I have now decided that what you have could be a San Peruvianesii :tongue:
  j/k though it does share features of all three kinds.
awesome lookin cactus though


Edited by cpw1971 (02/03/08 09:52 AM)


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InvisibleKnoa6
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: cpw1971]
    #7972377 - 02/03/08 10:49 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:fountain:
U get the word inventor of the year award!


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OfflineFarFromHere
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: Knoa6]
    #7972858 - 02/03/08 12:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Mine are about 34mm at longest. With up to about 12 spines per aerole





Nothing is set in stone with it comes to cacti...especially Trichocereus cacti...


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Invisiblescruffymafia
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: FarFromHere]
    #7997647 - 02/08/08 07:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Okay, so i finally got my camera back so i can show what my cactus really looks like:

Weird bulgy one:



The long spined one:






I took the pics of the aeroles because these two cactis aeroles are so different from the san pedros i have.

The long spined one isnt that yellow its just the camera.


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Offlinefelixhigh
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: scruffymafia]
    #7997977 - 02/08/08 08:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The one in the top looks like a short spined peruvianoid.
The second, and yellow guy is a pachanoi for sure, long spined, very nice looking BTW, 'equal' to yours other long spined pachanoi (probably a brother of your cactus).

A good simple rule is - dark green? v notches? -> peruvianus.
Yellow/pale green and no v notches -> pachanoi.


FH


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Invisiblescruffymafia
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: felixhigh]
    #7998124 - 02/08/08 09:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Its the same cacti, just the phone cam wasnt doing it any favors.

The 'mother cacti' the long spined cacti came off was a very dark green and had extremely blue pups on it. She said that the long spined guy would go much darker when i repotted it as its last pot and position was shit.

Do you get pachanoi's with such pronounced aeroles?


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Offlinefelixhigh
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Re: Trichocereus Peruvianus? [Re: scruffymafia]
    #7998172 - 02/08/08 09:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, when I grow from seed. Mine have lots of blue too.


FH


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