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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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freud and buddhism
    #7952607 - 01/29/08 08:26 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

I was wondering what people's opinions were on how Freud's philosophy complements or goes against the ideas of Buddhism.

Freud believes that the sublimation of aggression and the creation of civilization is a necessary step towards progress, although it creates neurosis which is a problem we still don't know how to quite solve (maybe cognitive-behavioral theory is a step, i don't know)

specifically, what people's thoughts were on the purpose of denying the ego and whether we should seek freedom from the superego or the superego, or our conscience, being a painful thing for the ego but necessary for society to evolve.

also, whether meditation is actually a tool towards liberation or simply a means towards pushing our aggression and anxieties deeper into the unconscious, and are people who meditate more enlightened than those who don't


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Edited by EternalCowabunga (01/29/08 08:34 PM)


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OfflineBoots
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Re: freud and buddhism [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7952780 - 01/29/08 08:51 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Well, I don't think there is a definite right or wrong of the two opinions. I mean, as unexciting as somebody may view the Buddhist way of life, if the Buddhist has succeeded and subsequently, the same goes for a person that relates more to Frued. Personally, I think there needs to be a balance between ego and a higher consciousness where the ego is non-existent.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: freud and buddhism [Re: Boots]
    #7952795 - 01/29/08 08:53 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

I don't think they're necessarily contradictory. Buddhism has a different attitude and different approach to coping with stress. Deep contemplation and reflection shouldn't entail repression of anything.


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Enlil said:
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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: freud and buddhism [Re: Boots]
    #7952814 - 01/29/08 08:57 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

i guess this has more to do with christianity, but does anyone believe that denying the ego of what it wants can actually be a path to higher consciousness? or does this kind of thinking belong in the medieval ages? what happens when we deny the ego? do we become more disciplined or do we always find a way to indulge the ego in possibly more unconscious or subliminal ways


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OfflinePilzeEssen


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Re: freud and buddhism [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7952828 - 01/29/08 08:59 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

read CARL JUNG


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"The soul has greater need of the ideal than of the real. It is by the real that we exist, it is by the ideal that we live."

If you want to get a hold of me, my email address is in my profile. Just click on my screen name. I got banned from using private messages cause I didn't follow the rules... :frown:


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: freud and buddhism [Re: PilzeEssen]
    #7952854 - 01/29/08 09:03 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

I've read bits and pieces of Jung.. do you want to elaborate on that? If you give me some ideas of his that relate to the topic I might be more inclined to follow your suggestion.


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Re: freud and buddhism [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7953217 - 01/29/08 09:58 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

ever heard of "the collective unconscious"? pretty interesting stuff.

jung is the one who came up with the term "synchronicity."

freud screwed shit up, carl jung fixed it.


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"The soul has greater need of the ideal than of the real. It is by the real that we exist, it is by the ideal that we live."

If you want to get a hold of me, my email address is in my profile. Just click on my screen name. I got banned from using private messages cause I didn't follow the rules... :frown:


Edited by PilzeEssen (01/29/08 10:00 PM)


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OfflinePilzeEssen


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Re: freud and buddhism [Re: PilzeEssen]
    #7953247 - 01/29/08 10:01 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

sorry im high and lazy right onw, that might not help you out much.


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"The soul has greater need of the ideal than of the real. It is by the real that we exist, it is by the ideal that we live."

If you want to get a hold of me, my email address is in my profile. Just click on my screen name. I got banned from using private messages cause I didn't follow the rules... :frown:


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: freud and buddhism [Re: PilzeEssen]
    #7953275 - 01/29/08 10:04 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

that's great :thumbup:

so you don't think any of freud's ideas are useful?


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: freud and buddhism [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7953283 - 01/29/08 10:05 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

hahaha, that's alright. i've just been reading freud's discontent of civilization that's why i mainly want to talk about freud


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: freud and buddhism [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7953510 - 01/29/08 10:39 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

I hear that's a very interesting read. I've only read a chapter from it, but well written. Freud had a lot of insight, but psychology has evolved a hell of a long way since his time.

He argues that aggression must be sublimated in order to create an orderly civilization. It seems as if this assumes that everyone is naturally aggressive towards everyone else, and that good-will must be learned.

When it comes down to it, I don't think denying any aspect of yourself is a healthy, wholesome way of life. It just leads to greater fragmentation.

Meditation isn't about denying or suppressing anything. I always assumed from your posts that you're a meditator, is that true? In your experience is meditation about pushing anxieties and aggression deep into the unconscious? Or is it about shedding light on your whole psyche and opening yourself up to states of anxiety or anger without necessarily indulging in either?

Are people who meditate more enlightened than those who don't? Enlightenment is our true and original nature. How can we have more or less of that?


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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: freud and buddhism [Re: dblaney]
    #7953769 - 01/29/08 11:20 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

In your experience is meditation about pushing anxieties and aggression deep into the unconscious? Or is it about shedding light on your whole psyche and opening yourself up to states of anxiety or anger without necessarily indulging in either?




Good point. I would say I become more conscious of these things and thus more able to choose how to respond to them (mostly choosing not to indulge in them)

Quote:

Are people who meditate more enlightened than those who don't? Enlightenment is our true and original nature. How can we have more or less of that?




Another good point.

The thing with me is that I always try and incorporate other world views into my own grand picture. When reading Freud I tried to impose his view on my own and what I found was I was beginning to doubt that the idea of getting rid of suffering or aggression was possible, and then I wondered if when I was in a calm state from meditating, I wasn't still making other people suffer from unconscious projections or something like that.

The whole aggression must be sublimated argument is interesting to me, and problematic. I'm not sure I fully understand it yet, I'll have to read more about it. On the one hand, it has it's positive effects such as men trying to change the world around them in a positive way through coercion and force, and of course it also has it's negatives, such as repression and aggression turned inwards leading to things like depression and masochism.

Of course, you can't have the good without the bad. Maybe one day we will find a balance that will direct all our aggression into only positive efforts, a common goal for all humanity perhaps. A few have suggested this could happen when we face the threat of invading aliens.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: freud and buddhism [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7953946 - 01/29/08 11:52 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Freud's theories are all speculative and have not been confirmed with any empiric evidence. It's best to take him with a grain of salt.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: freud and buddhism [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7955371 - 01/30/08 12:38 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Freud's theories are all speculative and have not been confirmed with any empiric evidence. It's best to take him with a grain of salt.



I underline that, also in regard of his heavy coke addiction. But of course he also had some very good and valid points, but tended to huge exaggerations in 'his' subjective superficialness.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
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"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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