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OrgoneConclusion
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Mushroom Spirit as literal fact?
#7950588 - 01/29/08 02:22 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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In this thread, let's disregard all of the poetic, mythical and allegorical variants of 'The Mushroom Spirit'. Who here believes that The Mushroom Spirit is some sort of real entity with intent and purpose and why?
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AlteredAgain
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Why ignore the myth and metaphor? It seems that this would severely limit the scope of discussion.
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: AlteredAgain]
#7950641 - 01/29/08 02:37 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Agreed.
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AlteredAgain
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7950675 - 01/29/08 02:42 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Psilocybe Cubensis said: "I require the nervous system of a mammal. Do you have one handy?" 
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: AlteredAgain]
#7950707 - 01/29/08 02:49 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Why ignore the myth and metaphor?
To narrow the scope of discussion. Are you not free to start a thread that more appeals to your interests instead of muddying this one from the very first response?
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Middleman

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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: AlteredAgain]
#7950714 - 01/29/08 02:51 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Terence McKenna said:
"I've literally had the experience on mushrooms of saying to it, "Show me what you are, for yourself." Well, it's like there's this enormous organ chord, the temperature falls, black velvet curtains are raised -- and after about 20 seconds of that, I'm saying, "That's enough of what you are for yourself! Let's go back to the dancing mice..."
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AlteredAgain
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There was no muddying. I'm free to question. That's all it was, a question.
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Lion
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: Middleman]
#7950734 - 01/29/08 02:55 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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I once tried that, though on probably not a high enough dose (~5 grams spaced out over a few hours). There did seem to be a change...I vaguely remember this alien, somewhat maniacal cackling laughter and there seemed to be spiraling blackness opening up inside and around my head. That's a shitty description but what can I do? Anyway, I think it likely it was just my own mind kind of teasing itself by prompting the hallucinations to move in a certain way.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Cubie
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: Lion]
#7950819 - 01/29/08 03:16 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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I think tripping has a lot to do with our soul. I like dmt. The spirt molecule. And mushies had a big role in intelligence
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AlteredAgain
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: Cubie]
#7950840 - 01/29/08 03:23 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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I think i get what you mean, but you'd probably have to clarify.
To me the mushroom experience is one of symbiosis. This one time I tripped I lay down and closed my eyes waiting for it to spread throughout me. During this I had visions of intelligence and alien, seemingly ancient, symbols drifting across my doors of perception. This however could all be attributed to the collective unconscious. Maybe the "Mushroom Spirit" is more of a key, than an actual entity..
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Cubie
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: AlteredAgain]
#7950863 - 01/29/08 03:28 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Yes. A key, I think its the key to a higher conscience. Maybe their alien or aliens put chemical knowledge in certin stuff
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: Cubie]
#7950905 - 01/29/08 03:35 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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As the psilocybin molecule contains 36 atoms in A SPECIFIC LOCATION and each molecule is IDENTICAL, how much knowledge can be contained?
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Cubie
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I guess the same way snails have messages un their slime where they have been where there going their sex ect......
Knowledge inbeded in the atoms.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: In this thread, let's disregard all of the poetic, mythical and allegorical variants of 'The Mushroom Spirit'. Who here believes that The Mushroom Spirit is some sort of real entity with intent and purpose and why?
I think the farmers are behind all this. It increases sales of those little white shrooms that old hippies love to ingest on their cheezy pizzas.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Kickle
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: As the psilocybin molecule contains 36 atoms in A SPECIFIC LOCATION and each molecule is IDENTICAL, how much knowledge can be contained?
The knowledge comes with the reaction. The amount of reactions from those 36 atoms seems to be limitless.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Cubie
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: Kickle]
#7951140 - 01/29/08 04:17 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Hell yea
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: Cubie]
#7951239 - 01/29/08 04:34 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Even acknowledging that psilocybin's raw magic is worked through a relatively simple unchanging molecule, I'm willing to accept the possibility that the mushrooms have a conscious and aware "spirit" behind them. I feel the same way about LSD, and in fact, everything else that exists (and doesn't exist) under the sun (and elsewhere). When you eat mushrooms you speak to their spirit, just like when you drive a car you commune with the spirits of transportation, oil, cars in general, your particular car, the road, et cetera.
We're all engaged in constant dialogue with the universe, we just don't always use words and we're not always aware of it.
Animism makes a lot more sense to me than the personality cults that have tried to bury it.
Edited by Tchan909 (01/29/08 05:09 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Spirit is archaic language for consciousness. I am reading a physicist's book in which he is using quantum mechanical properties and applying them to consciousness.
When an electron is observed, its wave function collapses and a 'particle' is observed (say, as a trail in a cloud chamber). The electron is both wave and particle (wavicle), but the presence of consciousness, observation, has an effect on the physical properties of the electron. Similarly with a 'mind' or a consciousness or a spirit. Just as an electron exists 'in potentia' and its position is 'uncertain' until observed, certain states of mind may exist 'in potentia' in a transcendental condition outside of space-time (just as an electron might be during quantum jumps from one location to another).
Mushroom spirits, just like individual 'minds' may parallel the observed electron when it is observed and it falls out of its 'probability cloud' which is 'potentia' becoming actual. It's an interesting application of quantum physics to the field of consciousness which I happen to be into at present, so I thought I'd mention it. There is local and non-local consciousness. Non-local consciousness is a transcendental condition out of which local consciousness can manifest to the mind-brain - like when a wave collapses to a particular particle.
All gods and incorporeal beings exist in transcendence. The Greeks were therefore correct, mythically, when they said the gods and goddesses resided on Mt. Olympus, as were the Hindus and their Mt. Kalaisa, and the Hebrew's Mt. Sinai - all metaphors for specific 'spirits' living 'on high'
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Kamek


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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: Cubie]
#7951302 - 01/29/08 04:48 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Cubie said: I guess the same way snails have messages un their slime where they have been where there going their sex ect......
Knowledge inbeded in the atoms.
I'm not trying to derail this thread or anything, but aren't snails hermaphrodites?
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deranger


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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: Kickle]
#7951486 - 01/29/08 05:16 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: As the psilocybin molecule contains 36 atoms in A SPECIFIC LOCATION and each molecule is IDENTICAL, how much knowledge can be contained?
The knowledge comes with the reaction. The amount of reactions from those 36 atoms seems to be limitless.
And there are different levels of reaction one can experience through merging with this intelligence, depending on the receptivity of the user. If you take one person who is utterly identified with mind and another who is more aware (receptive), the more aware person will be effected on a completely different level and will be able to tap into this separate intelligence with greater depth leading to a more self-expanding experience.
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TheCow
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the brain has little to do with quantum mechanics. If you know anything about how the brain functions, or how individual neurons function, this is extremely obvious.
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Cubie
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: TheCow]
#7951566 - 01/29/08 05:31 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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The brain is like a super complex switch board
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: TheCow]
#7951570 - 01/29/08 05:33 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
TheCow said: the brain has little to do with quantum mechanics. If you know anything about how the brain functions, or how individual neurons function, this is extremely obvious.
But quantum mechanics concerns all matter.
Gray matter is no exception.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
Edited by Tchan909 (01/29/08 05:33 PM)
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TheCow
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While that is somewhat true, when I pick an apple up, you cant apply the peculiarities of quantum mechanics to the situation
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: TheCow]
#7951600 - 01/29/08 05:38 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Well, no, I can't personally, because I honestly don't know squat about quantum mechanics.
But I do know quantum mechanics deals in the fundamental physics of atoms, of which that apple is made up. Of course it applies.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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TheCow
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Yea but you cant claim that the apple is in different spots, all that sort of stuff. The brain does not work on quantum mechanics, it is a macrosystem
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: TheCow]
#7951606 - 01/29/08 05:42 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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It is a macrosystem, but one which functions based on principles we have only the sketchiest understanding of. Being that it is made up of ATOMS, quantum mechanics is included in those principles.
Also, there are still a lot of mysteries concerning the macrosystem itself.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
Edited by Tchan909 (01/29/08 05:44 PM)
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TheCow
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Cubie
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: TheCow]
#7951622 - 01/29/08 05:46 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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There's a lot of mysteries concerning the brain
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PhanTomCat
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Who here believes that The Mushroom Spirit is some sort of real entity1 with intent and purpose2 and why3?
1) I don't, but I could be wrong.... 2) We are the one's with the intent and purpose (or lack thereof) - when consuming such things.... 3) Best guess at my current plane of "knowledge"....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Cubie
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7952199 - 01/29/08 07:34 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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I think its more of a gateway to higher understanding and enity and being connected with all.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
I honestly don't know squat about quantum mechanics.
Squantum mechanics, then?
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Rose
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Who here believes mushrooms can cause temporary ego loss?
Who here thinks that can be an interesting experience?
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Cubie
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: Rose]
#7954377 - 01/30/08 02:28 AM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Ego loss is everything I can connect to the network, I am one with all. I hear a voice like legion we are all one we are all knowing. We are vibrations of energy and light. I can see the vibrations. Scooby poopkachoo
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: Cubie]
#7954646 - 01/30/08 07:11 AM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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i'm not really too sure, i've had visions of entities that exist smeared across multiple dimensions. like if we took just this world and made a metaphor, it would be intelligent beings that are made up of a shoe here, the tree branch over there, a piece of a computer, a door, ect. the visions were like that but the mushrooms were spread out across many different planes, with the actual physical mushroom just being the projection of the being in this world.
but imagination is pretty strong, i'd say its quite possible my brain just crafted a nifty explanation for why mushrooms make people feel the way they do, so i'm going to have to say i'm undecided.
-------------------- You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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backfromthedead
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: truekimbo2]
#7955396 - 01/30/08 12:44 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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'There are reports that psilocybin mushrooms can engender a dialogue between the one who ingests them and a voice of unknown origin. The objective of the present study was to search for such reports, to look for differences between those who reported having heard a voice with psilocybin use and those who had not, and to characterize the voice. An anonymous questionnaire was distributed among the members of several organizations resulting in a sample of 128 participants. The phenomenon of a perceived voice during psilocybin mushroom use was reported in better than a third of participants.'
'Overall, the results of this study suggest that what made the difference between hearing a voice or not with psilocybin was more about what people did, than who they were. Can it be said that there are boundaries to the human psyche? Psilocybin voice experiences force us to confront our notions of a personal self and a universal Self.'
more- http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v07n1/07112bea.html
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NiamhNyx
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Wow, that article is really interesting!
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Chronic7

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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: deranger]
#7955663 - 01/30/08 01:45 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Everything has its own energy, and shrooms definately have a strong energy!
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: TheCow]
#7955848 - 01/30/08 02:24 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
TheCow said: Yea but you cant claim that the apple is in different spots, all that sort of stuff. The brain does not work on quantum mechanics, it is a macrosystem
A good point, but some radical theorists disagree. Even the moon, a macro quantum object has a more stable wave function and therefore appears with imperceptible changes but (they say) ceases to be in an objective manner. Now, I can grok that when a tree falls in the forest, it falls silently, unless there is some receiving mechanism to translate vibration into sound, but I still can't get my mind around the moon not being there when we all turn our backs!
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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deimya
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Yes, some disagree but always too much. The interpretation of quantum mechanics is still hotly and oftentimes wrongly debated. Of all the proprosed interpretations, the "common sense" one would argue that the tree falling in the forest is "heard" by all surrounding trees and that in fact the whole universe is listening. This is the stance called the decoherence interpretation, in which all the quantum fluffyness is dispersed and mixed more or less quickly into its surrounding, since it is everything but empty. Same thing for the moon. The universe is a very noisy place with gazillion listening "ears" and this is why at some mesoscopic scale stuff seem to stop behaving quantum mechanically.
But this doesn't mean that a macroscopic object has no property coming directly from the quantum world, or that it completly transmute into something unrecongnizably mechanical. Just take metal for example, there's literally a sea of electron behaving very "quantum mechanically" at their surface, making them shiny and all.
Accordingly so, it is argued by some that very weird things could be going on at the scale of neurons, so the debate is not closed. In fact there's probably something going on at every scales imaginable which has more or less an influence on these emergent phenomenons we call brain and consciousness.
As an objective observer, the human brain likes to speak of itself as being all about neuronal networks, or all about chemistry, or all about physics, or all about quantum mechanics, but these are always based on contemporary ideas which will eventually evolve. And most importantly they are based on what the brain know, not on what it doesn't.
So what does it feel like to be a conscious human ? Does it feel like a neural network ? Like complex synaptic chemical reactions ? Electrons binding together ? Wave functions evolving according to Dirac equation ? Gauge invariant quantum fields interacting together ? My stance is that since it is a subjective experience then it feels like whatever nature is made of, deep down and up here, regardless of what we do and don't know about it.
Hence for me the "mushroom spirit" is the perceived subjective change of how it feels like to be made of nature when you mess with synaptic chemical reactions using tryptamines, and that's why I think it might bear some interesting insights.
Edited by deimya (01/30/08 03:12 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: TheCow]
#7956257 - 01/30/08 04:05 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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This is a quantum paradigm which departs markedly from the synaptic electrochemical transmission of neural signals. The apparently simultaneous firing of distal neurons occurs at a speed that seems to defy the Einsteinian speed of light limit. This phenomenon has been noted among quantum physicists who would naturally be opposed by proponents of Einsteinian physics. However, quantum experiments have revealed that complementary particles far from each other respond with simultaneity which violates the light-speed limit and some are positing both classical and quantum physics as operating together on their respective levels. It may well turn out that the 'speed of thought' exceeds the light limit because of the 'non-locality' of consciousness. Non-locality may indicate transcendence of space-time (the 'place' of electrons as well during quantum leaps).
This paradigm seriously considers the primacy of consciousness over matter. Instead of 'material monism' then, the supposition is "monistic idealism." C.G. Jung and Wolfgang Pauli collaborated on such a theory but Jung didn't live long enough to co-create it. Matter and mind would then both be aspects of Consciousness which transcends both manifestations in its non-locality (non-extension in space-time. Consciousness is insubstantial because it is not a substance and 'connects' all of space-time simultaneously, whereas energy is limited in its transmission by light speed).
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: deimya]
#7956280 - 01/30/08 04:09 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Heyyy...Thanks for all that. "Decoherence interpretation"...Hmmm. I've got some reading to do, this domain is clearly unfamiliar to me. I appreciate the post.
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Icelander
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Matter and mind would then both be aspects of Consciousness
So if you don't mind, it doesn't matter.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: Icelander]
#7956316 - 01/30/08 04:17 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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How about some new material?
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deimya
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The brain is too noisy for coherences to exist across several neurons. Inside each of them maybe, but they get exponentially suppressed outside.
Regarding non-locality, it is a common misconception that these correlations between events seemingly spatial seperated violate Einstein's limit. It is now a known theorem in quantum mechanics (the no-communication theorem) that no information is carried over by correlation due to entanglement unless an a-priori classical channel is put into place. This was not known, or at least not well formalised, at the time of Jung and Pauli, and as such fueled many heated debates without giving rise to any consensus. The reality is not exactly mysterious the way some proponents of consciousness over matter would like it to be. Yet mysterious it is.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: Icelander]
#7960458 - 01/31/08 02:34 PM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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Right. No matter, never mind.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mushroom Spirit as literal fact? [Re: deimya]
#7960570 - 01/31/08 02:58 PM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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This is conceptually fascinating material to me. I have avoided it in the past due to the fact that despite forced classes in algebra, calculus, Boolian algebra, statistics and research design, I have a self-diagnosed Learning Disability in mathematics. In addition, I managed to avoid even basic physics before leaving hard science in college for philosophy. I feel like I'm sheepishly trying to be taken back by a former mistress, some 37 years later! I also tended to avoid studying knowledge pertaining to physical form in favor of 'salvific' knowledge, or at least, knowledge pertaining to Consciousness itself rather than the objects in Consciousness.
I have an additional insight about my new interest in such matters. 1) I am perfectly capable of admitting my ignorance of classical physics. Thus, I have the necessary humility in this domain to be a new student (like a white belt at the rear of karate class) and 2) I swear that the 'smart drugs' we've been taking has fired up a youthful enthusiasm for new knowledge. Lastly, I can imagine a Grand Unified Theory that reconciles mysticism with quantum physics. It was a milestone discovering how the work of a Bible scholar (Rev. John Shelby Spong) could reconcile faith and reason, and this was a step which corresponds (in me) to the reconciliation of mysticism (or the Mystery of Consciousness) with quantum physics (physics meaning nature in Greek). Thus, it is not a dichotomy of energy and matter in a materialistic monistic idiom, but rather consciousness and matter, mind and brain, or Nirvana and Samsara for all that.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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deranger


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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: 'smart drugs'
Vinpocetine
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Cracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper




Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,808
Loc: Swamp
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mushroom spirit is like saying the god of Christianity.
How about this energy that is all around us and sometimes(if our heads aren't up our asses) we recognize it.
i'm sure the mushroom spirit would be so offended if mushroom spirit knew you dubbed mushroom spirit the mushroom spirit. Assmask!
-------------------- The best way to live is to be like water For water benefits all things and goes against none of them It provides for all people and even cleanses those places a man is loath to go In this way it is just like Tao ~Daodejing
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