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OfflineSubbedhunter420
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New SPECIMEN! So cal active (hebeloma/inocybe?) Cont'd
    #7950193 - 01/29/08 12:09 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

I went for a hike after the rain to a forest in the coastal mountains.
I found all kinds of suillus, waxy caps, amanitas, marasmius oreades, pluteus cervinus, etc..

But!!! I found these four specimens growing side by side with a larger pluteus cervinus patch and found these four to have bluing on them. I know of pluteus salicinus but I also know of death caps. I waited for a spore print at home and I did It on white paper.

It turned out salmon/pink. The color of pluteus spores...


I apologize for the "weirdness" of the photo. I had to use the dodge tool in photoshop to balance out the light and dark of my flash. other than that, I can try to take more photos but I must be off to work.

Anyone want a spore print? Alan? Workman?


Edited by Subbedhunter420 (02/22/08 01:27 PM)


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Offlinexmush
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #7950204 - 01/29/08 12:12 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Very interesting. The blue bits on the cap almost look like mold to me. Were there any more healthy specimens? And was there any blue bruising, or were there just blue patches when you found them? Cool pics whatever they turn out to be.


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Invisiblecactu
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: xmush]
    #7950334 - 01/29/08 12:56 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

fabuloso, this one do not resemble the other active pluteus i have seem , but it look like one , take more picture and maybe if you can open one specimen in two so you and i can see more blue , definatly save spores for the others.
all my best vibrations.


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cuando una rafaga del pensamiento nos pasa  al lado se puede sentir  que valio  la pena  haber vivido, y cuando ese pensamiento se  convierte en sueño no paramos de soñar hasta realizarlo


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #7950376 - 01/29/08 01:07 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Can you get a photo of the spore print? Those are definitely not Pluteus, they look more like some brown spored mushroom like Hebeloma or something.

Indeed, thpse white/blue patches look like mold or Hypomyces or something. Was there blue bruising where damaged?


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OfflineHotnuts
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: CureCat]
    #7950409 - 01/29/08 01:21 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Hypomyces was my guess also.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Hotnuts]
    #7951210 - 01/29/08 04:30 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Doesn't look much like a Pluteus to me either.

What was the gill attachment like?

Was it growing in dirt or on wood?

The blue stem base does look interesting.


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OfflineSubbedhunter420
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #7951272 - 01/29/08 04:41 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

No mold here. this is blue bruising under the flesh. It was growing from oak and deciduous mulch/dirt beneath.

My apologies for jumping the gun on the spore print. It was early morning and in dark lighting. The print is brown. Although these pics dont have perfect lighting Id prefer for identifying.

Nonetheless the blue bruising is occuring. I tried to provoke as much bluing as possible but I need a new camera or at least learn how to use it better...





Edited by Subbedhunter420 (01/29/08 04:56 PM)


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Offline2859558484
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #7951292 - 01/29/08 04:46 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

looks like it has a psilocin content


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OfflineSubbedhunter420
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: 2859558484]
    #7951301 - 01/29/08 04:48 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

definitely not the cobweb...


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Invisiblecactu
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #7952732 - 01/29/08 08:44 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

neomataloma and hipholoma are calling atencion is some actives i bet workman will be interet in this .
so you can confirm the bluing ,

all my best vibrations.


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cuando una rafaga del pensamiento nos pasa  al lado se puede sentir  que valio  la pena  haber vivido, y cuando ese pensamiento se  convierte en sueño no paramos de soñar hasta realizarlo


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: cactu]
    #7953025 - 01/29/08 09:27 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Almost looks like a pale Gymnopilus...with the rusty brown print.


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InvisibleinskiM
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #7953342 - 01/29/08 10:17 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Cortinarius sp?


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: inski]
    #7953552 - 01/29/08 10:46 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Thats a good guess. I have never seen a bluing one but they are often purple.


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OfflineHotnuts
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: inski]
    #7953576 - 01/29/08 10:51 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

inski said:
Cortinarius sp?




That would be a good guess with that deposit color. They certainly appear to be a host of Hypomyces as well.


Edited by Hotnuts (01/29/08 11:18 PM)


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Hotnuts]
    #7953596 - 01/29/08 10:54 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

> That would be a good guess with that deposit color.

And it looks like there is a rusty patch in the middle of the stem from the cortina remnants. Also the cap looks viscid.

Well I guess a bluing Cortinarius would be quite a discovery.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Hotnuts]
    #7953602 - 01/29/08 10:55 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Also the shape and texture of the stipe are typical of Cortinarius species, I'd like to see more pictures!


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: inski]
    #7954223 - 01/30/08 01:07 AM (16 years, 2 days ago)

Wow... This is strange. It does look like a Cortinarius or maybe a Hebeloma... Smell it. Is the scent unusual or strong?

Yes, more photos!!


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OfflineSubbedhunter420
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: CureCat]
    #7954392 - 01/30/08 02:38 AM (16 years, 2 days ago)

well, all my photos are shit but ill try more in the morning.

CC, the smell actually became stronger after picking and smelled of bleach/dirt/semen. Kinda gross a bit but its not as bad anymore.

Alan, Could it be a gymnopilus? it looks a little too rusty. no veil either. although ive found gyms with no veil in Chico...


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #7954464 - 01/30/08 04:20 AM (16 years, 2 days ago)

Those could not be any species of Gymnopilus. Spore colour is not orange enough, not growing from wood, hygrophanous pileus...

I'm still leaning towards Hebeloma.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: CureCat]
    #7955177 - 01/30/08 11:31 AM (16 years, 2 days ago)

> Alan, Could it be a gymnopilus? it looks a little too rusty. no veil either. although ive found gyms with no veil in Chico...

I considered that, but all Gymnopilus species have a dry cap. They can have a veil or lack one.

Each genus described in mushrooms demystified has a very helpful paragraph at the beginning that describes the possible range of features for that genus:

http://books.google.com/books?id=86tM01VsFG0C&pg=PA407&dq=Gymnopilus&ei=wcGgR-HILIvsiQHfjNWqCg&sig=Z_BalFQGNcNuq6DsKtDiZs0-93o&hl=en


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OfflineSubbedhunter420
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #7955194 - 01/30/08 11:36 AM (16 years, 2 days ago)

Ok heres some updates on pics.





Anything else I can help with?


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #7955910 - 01/30/08 02:40 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

I am gonna go with CC on this. They look very similar to the poison pie Hebeloma (or something similar).

Edit: Not saying it is the poison pie, but poison pie have a print color that is brown to a pale rust, a sticky cap, common in the West, and grow through May in California.

source: National Audubon Society


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Edited by Jair (01/30/08 02:46 PM)


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OfflineSubbedhunter420
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Jair]
    #7956477 - 01/30/08 04:45 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

Do poison pies have a distinct smell upoin picking? are they known to turn blue?

also, can cobweb form under the tissue and cause bluing? Ive never heard of such a thing before. Ive heard of it graying.


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Re: So cal active (not a pluteus) w/ more pics [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #7956554 - 01/30/08 04:55 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

subbedhunter,

if you find them again make radial sections from a button and also from a mature specimen. vertically cut straight down the middle of the mushroom (from the center of the cap down through the center of the stem slicing it in half) to get a better idea of how the gills are attached. also to see if the stems are hollow and whatnot. many people might call that a "cross section" but that could very well be a inaccurate term. a cross section is cut horizontally and a radial section is cut vertically.

anyways, obviously look at the spore shape (and measure the size of them if possible) under a microscope

they do not really *look* to be psychoactive to me, but just looking at them is not always a very scientific approach to figuring that out. the bluing reaction observed is obviously enough to warrant that a good possiblity.

looking at this photograph:



it looks slightly odd to me. the "bluish" coloration is on the surface of the pileus, but there is a section that appears to have been eaten by bugs, and it shows a meaty white flesh which does not appear to be bluing at all from what i can see.. does it?

and i certainly would not recommend anyone doing a bioassay on those, yet.

alan noted that he can see blue on the base of the stems, but i cannot see it in your photographs for certain. if you say you see blue for certain then that is enough. but is the flesh of the fruitbody bluing or is it the mycelium at the base of the stem bluing? do you see bluing anywhere else on the mushroom?

for capturing that type of blue in a image use natural light (not too bright and not too dark) and a red colored backround.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #7956576 - 01/30/08 04:59 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

the best way to smell a mushroom is to break a little piece of the cap off and crush it in your fingers and then smell. do the same thing with the stem and compare.

here is a link that describes a few of the various descriptions for fungi smells and flavor: http://www.mushroomexpert.com/odortaste.html


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OfflineSubbedhunter420
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: GGreatOne234]
    #7956628 - 01/30/08 05:07 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

well, the mushrooms are starting to being the early-middle stage of drying and im pissed I could not get better photos. Thats the thing though! this bluing is subtle. its on the cap, yes, its was also on the flesh of the stem and more of a green but when I look at the stems now theyve turned a darker colored brown/rust and I cannot see it anymore due to it.

The caps still maintain their bluing and I noticed the skin when I cut it never blued. only the outer layers of skin.

also the stem is not hollow but solid through and the gills are attached to the stem.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #7993992 - 02/07/08 09:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Here are some pics of the spores, 1000x.

They are slightly rough (minutely ornamented) and have a germ pore.





Pleurocystidia, 400x, crush mount:









Cheilocystidia, 100x, strange tree-like thing:



Cheilocystidia, 400x:





Basidium 400x:



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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #7994029 - 02/07/08 09:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Hmm, those cheilocystidia look kinda funny, like they're ornamented at the tip.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #7994068 - 02/07/08 09:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The dried cap has one part that is a little bit blue. Its a light blue, almost sky blue. The place where it is blue is damaged, but I can't tell if it is just blue or it turns blue when damaged. There were some black spots as well.

When I rehydrated the cap with 70% isopropanol I noticed a pretty strong radish odor.

My guess is that it is a Hebeloma due to the smell, form of the fruiting body, cystidia, and slightly roughened spores.

I decided they don't really have a germ pore, the little thing at the end of the spores is the hilar appendage (where they attach to the basidium).

I had Hessler's unpublished monograph on Hebeloma a couple months ago, but I gave it back without copying it.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #7994162 - 02/07/08 10:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

just did a quick search. There arn't any known blueing hebelomas are there?


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: landsnorkler]
    #7994260 - 02/07/08 10:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

>There arn't any known blueing hebelomas are there?

Not that I am aware of. But sometimes mycologists have a way of leaving out what they consider "insignificant" details... So the question would be best asked of a Hebeloma expert.


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OfflineSubbedhunter420
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: CureCat]
    #7994590 - 02/08/08 12:27 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

where the hell do we get a hebeloma expert?


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #7994627 - 02/08/08 12:48 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:lol:


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OfflineSubbedhunter420
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: CureCat]
    #7994631 - 02/08/08 12:50 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

why are you laughing? :rolleyes:


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #7994642 - 02/08/08 12:56 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It just sounded funny...

I do not know who the current authority on the genus Hebeloma is. Maybe Alan knows. If not, I'll ask Else Vellinga or Tom Bruns if they know who the pro is when I see them tomorrow. In fact, since Hebeloma are mycorrhizal, and the Bruns Lab focuses on the mycorrhizal fungi, they might have actually done work on the genus at some point.


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Edited by CureCat (02/08/08 01:06 AM)


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Offlineimplee
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #7994820 - 02/08/08 03:02 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Alls i see is micro penors


The second and third from the last have a few other micro penors.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: implee]
    #7995155 - 02/08/08 08:02 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

....

Not helpful.  :bored:


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Offlinexmush
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: CureCat]
    #7995390 - 02/08/08 09:20 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

CureCat said:
....

Not helpful.  :bored:




But super funny :rofl:


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: xmush]
    #7995761 - 02/08/08 10:50 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

lol yeah im laughing.

anyways though... Im gonna go to the beach today and jam like a hippie but if you need me to do any research or more hunting ill gladly.
If you can find some people who know hebelomas ill be impressed. Good luck alan and CC!


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #7995825 - 02/08/08 11:10 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I recommend you email the pics in this thread to Joe Ammirati (cort [at] u.washington.edu)

He is a really cool guy and really knows his Cortinariaceae.


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OfflineSubbedhunter420
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #7996040 - 02/08/08 12:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I sadly dont use my email. only used for this and school emails.

If you would not mind doing that, only cuz i dont really know how, It would be much appreciated. besides, I wouldnt know what to write him exactly. whether i would discuss psilocybe or not...


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #7996066 - 02/08/08 12:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

> If you would not mind doing that

No problem.

> I wouldnt know what to write him exactly. whether i would discuss psilocybe or not...

I would recommend not. Academics are cool to a point, but the shroomery is wayyyyy outside their comfort zone, 99% of the time.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #7998803 - 02/09/08 12:53 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

What do you think about something like Inocybe corydalina or Inocybe haemacta - possible synonyms?

Cool mushrooms whatever they are... everyone seems to be looking in the right places. good luck...

Nice micrographs Alan...

Sometimes you can buy used SEMs (without the manual) for the price of used car.


Edited by georgeM (02/09/08 01:10 AM)


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: georgeM]
    #7998977 - 02/09/08 01:49 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

georgeM said:
Sometimes you can buy used SEMs (without the manual) for the price of used car.




LOL – yeah, but where do you put the thing? Doesn't exactly fit on a desktop. I suppose you could put it in your garage and leave your car in the driveway. :smile:

Of course, there's also the small matter of having to install a whole other electric line and electric panel in your house, because that's how much power they consume.

Also the matter of getting training – believe me, an SEM not the kind of device one can just "figure out", even with a manual.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Strophariaceae]
    #7999649 - 02/09/08 10:47 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

haahaa
Wait... don't you just position a little mirror toward a south facing window?


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420] * 1
    #7999743 - 02/09/08 11:30 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Subbedhunter420 said:







Did anyone else see this?


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Drewwyann]
    #7999753 - 02/09/08 11:31 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Lol that is amazing


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: implee]
    #8000254 - 02/09/08 01:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)




could it be?


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: C9XMVHCH]
    #8005893 - 02/10/08 06:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)



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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8008439 - 02/11/08 11:39 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

They arent any better than us it seems at identifying this thing and I really doubt its a pluteus salicinus like Mj said. I dont think we will get anywhere with Mycotopia if Mj cant help. Besides, he just starts talking about something "Yours truly" did in a french magazine.

a little conceited and off topic? maybe...
but maybe new answers in time will help.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Drewwyann]
    #8008801 - 02/11/08 01:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Drewwyann said:
Quote:

Subbedhunter420 said:







Did anyone else see this?






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:igor: RIP :igor:

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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: undergrounder]
    #8008833 - 02/11/08 01:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Hahahaha, you got it!!!


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #8009084 - 02/11/08 02:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Tjakko Stijve said: As for the mushroom you sent me, the description is poor, and the pictures could also be improved. It would have been of help to know whether it was growing on the same wooden tronc as Pluteus cervinus. There's a fair chance that it could be Pluteus salicinus, because advanced specimens can really have a bluegreen Pileus . Raphanoid odor is also pointing in that direction. Alternatively, P. cyanopus Rea would be a candidate, but this customer is so rare that I cannot even find a good picture of it on the WEB.





There is no way this sample could be a Pluteus, that genus is known for free gills and the gill attachment on this mushroom is not even close to free.

Also, Pluteus always has smooth spores, never ornamented as these are.

Pluteus also typically has much closer gills, the spacing in this sample is much wider.

In addition, the spore print color is wrong, Pluteus always has at least a tinge of pink, never just brown.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #8009098 - 02/11/08 02:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Source: http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=82256&p=3&topicID=15376604

Quote:

Dave Wasilewski said: Species of Gymnopolis have orange/rusty to brownish/rusty spore prints with variably warty spores that show elliptical profile under the scope. Phillips lists a few species for which the upper limit on l/w ratio is fairly close to 2/1. The spores pictured above seem to fall within these parameters. My experience interpreting microscopic features does not extend much beyond looking at the spores; it looks like a few of these scope-pics show some stuff other than spores. On the macroscopic side, the bluish staining/bruising of the cap fits into Gymnopolis. Also, there appear to be yellow/orange stains on the stalk, another feature seen in some Gyms. Gym species are often associated with pronounced odors -usually not disagreeable. The Gym species I've seen here in the east have deeper-colored yellow or orange caps, and the gills are darker than the ones pictured here. Another possibility for the genus of the ones in the photos is Hebeloma. Some H species exhibit the marginal veil remnants on the cap, as appears to be the case in the top photo. And, the "radish" odor is something I have noted in H. crustuliniforme. But I know of no H species for which there is bluish staining on the cap. Also, for several different H species Phillips lists the spores as "almond-shaped" or "lemon-shaped", with only one species -H. sterlingii- having ellipsoid spores. I would call the spores in these photos "ellipsoid." Phillips (Roger's Mushrooms, online) includes descriptions of several Gyms and Hebelomas. Arora -whose information is often based upon studying specimens found in California- also gives good account of these two genera. Species of Agrocybe usually have ringed stalks, but A. praecox has a ring that sometimes dissappears. Some of the features on the ones pictured -including overall appearance- are reminiscent of A. praecox. So, I guess this one should also be mentioned. The spores of this typical springtime mushroom are elliptic, but smooth.

My guess is "Gymnopolis."






Agrocybe is an interesting guess, there is one active in that genus. According to Mushrooms Demystified and the PNW key council, Agrocybe always has smooth spores, but that might just be US collections. The pictures on the web of Agrocybe farinacea do bear a striking resemblance to your photos. I'll have to check and see if your specimen has a cellular cap cuticle.

Can anyone find the species description for Agrocybe farinacea? It was published by Hongo in the Journal of Japanese botany, issue 32, page 143, 1957.

Gymnopilus is another good guess, but I would expect those to be more orange.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8009184 - 02/11/08 03:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I disagree strongly with Gymnopilus and Pluteus.

Though, I did consider Agrocybe early on, I discounted it because it looked sooo much more like a Hebeloma- I've never seen Agrocybe with a pale and viscid pileus like in these photos.

EDIT - I just found some photos of Agrocybe that look quite like these. So never mind! They are both good guesses.

I'm going to try and find photos of other genera in the family Bolbitiaceae.


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Edited by CureCat (02/11/08 03:12 PM)


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: CureCat]
    #8011925 - 02/12/08 02:40 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Its a possibility but have they been known to exist at all in the united states? It said on the Lycaeum that they are from japan. also I dunno about the agrocybes... it sounds close but they NEVER had that much brown on the caps as the pictures I saw and the gills were attached to the stem. They dont seem to attach to the gills in the existing pictures of agrocybe farinacea Ive seen.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #8011928 - 02/12/08 02:44 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Do these look right>

The Agrocybe Farinacea from Lycaeum.



The unknowns...

Compare.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #8012258 - 02/12/08 07:24 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

they look different to me. Stem textures seems different, and of course yours are lighter. The gill attatchment seems different too. Were any of yours found growing cespitose like that? They could be some kind of undescribed agrocybe.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: landsnorkler]
    #8012340 - 02/12/08 08:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'm still thinking Cortinarius. The best comparison that i've been able to find is C. oregonensis. I don't see any remarks that include scale of the spores, but here's what I can offer from the description Roger Phillips has for spore scale. 6.5-7.6 X 3.7-4.6 microns. Ellipsoid and slightly roughened.

The description ellipsoid seems to be different from mycologist to mycologist, but I would say that description fits those spores Alan.


Edited by Hotnuts (02/12/08 08:31 AM)


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Hotnuts]
    #8012393 - 02/12/08 08:36 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"I dont think we will get anywhere with Mycotopia if Mj cant help".

That wasn't very nice. :smirk:


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Hotnuts]
    #8012541 - 02/12/08 09:29 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

cortinarius does sound pretty good.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Hotnuts]
    #8012798 - 02/12/08 10:50 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

> I'm still thinking Cortinarius.

That would explain the viscid pileus, blueish colors and spore ornamentation.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8012974 - 02/12/08 11:47 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Its a possibility for cortinarius. Ive never heard of them bruise blue though. Only purple and other colors... seems they're used for dye.

Although they tend to disappear with age, all cortinarius have a veil. Not even on the young ones was there any sign of a veil.
It has also been noted that they grow under conifers but I found them in a completely deciduous forest. No conifers grow in this area unless planted. It also states the smell and taste is mild but not to me. It was stinking out of my cabinet when they were drying!
also, the colors are still off.

Here is a picture of the Cortinarius Oregonensis. From Roger's Mushrooms

Now heres mine again.

gRR... i still think we need to keep researching. Im also sending a sample to Workman today so He'll be inspecting it in a week.


Edited by Subbedhunter420 (02/12/08 11:53 AM)


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #8012989 - 02/12/08 11:52 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

damn, those look pretty similar. It is strange though that your mushrooms didn't have any cortina remnants on them. That is one thing I almost always see on cortinarius.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: landsnorkler]
    #8013001 - 02/12/08 11:56 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I dont think theyre corts. yeah i never saw a cortina/annulus of any kind.
...Then again I definitely am not a mushroom EXPERT!:crazy:


Edited by Subbedhunter420 (02/12/08 12:00 PM)


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #8013011 - 02/12/08 12:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

They are like five mushroom genus' rolled into one.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: landsnorkler]
    #8013025 - 02/12/08 12:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The colors of those mushrooms aren't the same as the ones in his new book. That's why I ignored those for a comparison. In his book they are a perfect match. There are many reasons for the color diversity of a species.

With the exception of being found in a deciduous area, all signs point to C. oregonensis. Knowing the size of the spores would be a real plus for sure.


Edited by Hotnuts (02/12/08 12:06 PM)


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Hotnuts]
    #8013047 - 02/12/08 12:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Hotnuts said:
The colors of those mushrooms aren't the same as the ones in his new book. That's why I ignored those for a comparison. In his book they are a perfect match. There are many reasons for the color diversity of a species.

With the exception of being found in a deciduous area, all signs point to C. oregonensis. Knowing the size of the spores would be a real plus for sure.




But there are no cortina remnants on any of subbed's specimens.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: landsnorkler]
    #8013129 - 02/12/08 12:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)






But there are no cortina remnants on any of subbed's specimens.




Prolly too old or just hard to see. I could be dead wrong too. :hehehe:


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: landsnorkler]
    #8013160 - 02/12/08 12:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Hotnuts, that is a good consideration as well. However, I expect Cortinarius spores to be slightly more rust coloured, to have remnants of a partial veil, and to smell mild.

Hebeloma can smell very strong!


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #8013172 - 02/12/08 12:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Subbedhunter420 said:
Its a possibility for cortinarius. Ive never heard of them bruise blue though. Only purple and other colors... seems they're used for dye.





They don't bruise blue, but many species of Cortinarius have blue and purple shades.

Quote:

Although they tend to disappear with age, all cortinarius have a veil. Not even on the young ones was there any sign of a veil.




I can see veil remnants on the cap margin in the first picture.






Quote:

It has also been noted that they grow under conifers but I found them in a completely deciduous forest.




Many species of Cortinarius grow in deciduous forest.

Quote:

It also states the smell and taste is mild but not to me. It was stinking out of my cabinet when they were drying!




Many species of Cortinarius have exactly that radish-like smell.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Hotnuts]
    #8013179 - 02/12/08 12:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Hotnuts said:





But there are no cortina remnants on any of subbed's specimens.




Prolly too old or just hard to see. I could be dead wrong too. :hehehe:




Not too old... you can see on the younger specimens, that there is no sign of any partial veil, and it looks like subbed did a good job picking them and handling them gently, because i don't see any scuff marks where a cortina or partial veil would be, so he couldn't have accidentally destroyed that feature.

It is possible that some Cortinarius species do not have a partial veil, despite the genus name (though I am not a Cortinarius expert, so I may be dead wrong).  I mean, look at Psilocybe.  Apparently named after psilocin/psilocybin, yet there are many inactive species within the genus (though, it looks like they may be split from there and put into Kuehneromyces, Galerina, or something..)


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: CureCat]
    #8013202 - 02/12/08 12:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Hey subbed, how tough were these?? All Agrocybe I've found have been extremely tough, to the point that they barely shatter when kicked.
I know you didn't kick them, but based on how they felt...


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: CureCat]
    #8013285 - 02/12/08 01:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Was it really rainy before these were found? Heavy prolonged rain could wash off cortina remnants.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: CureCat]
    #8013311 - 02/12/08 01:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Many Cortinarius species require a hand lens to detect remnants of the cortina.

With regard to host trees, a bit of promiscuity is not unheard of with some mycorrhizal species.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: CureCat]
    #8013318 - 02/12/08 01:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

> Apparently named after psilocin/psilocybin, yet there are many inactive species within the genus

Actually psilocybin and psilocin are named after the genus - Psilocybe has been around since 1871, but psilocybin was not isolated until 1959 by Albert Hoffman.

Psilocybe means "bald head" in Greek, the genus was named that due to the smooth cap surface and lack of other interesting features.

> Was it really rainy before these were found? Heavy prolonged rain could wash off cortina remnants.

I think the rusty stains on the stem are cortina remnants.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8013332 - 02/12/08 01:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Good to know alan. I wasn't sure which way it went. So that was a bad example.

I simply need to learn latin better. I don't know what the hell these names mean, aside from how the species relate to one another.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: CureCat]
    #8013359 - 02/12/08 01:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

>I think the rusty stains on the stem are cortina remnants

Yep, I went back and looked. They do appear to be remnants. Well, I'm pretty convinced, macroscopically speaking, that they are cortinarius. If they are cortinarius that would mean they didn't bruise blue, but just had some bluish coloration to them, correct? Thus eliminating psilocybin from the equation?


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: landsnorkler]
    #8013386 - 02/12/08 01:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

>If they are cortinarius that would mean they didn't bruise blue, but
>just had some bluish coloration to them, correct? Thus eliminating
>psilocybin from the equation?

Maybe, but not certainly.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: landsnorkler]
    #8013389 - 02/12/08 01:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

If KOH is available perhaps applying a bit would be helpful as a large number of cortinarius species will exhibit a reaction. This is best performed with fresh specimens however it can still work after a few days.

Subbed hunter: you said these things smelled badly... could you describe that smell?


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: georgeM]
    #8013413 - 02/12/08 02:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I firmly believe them to be Cortinarius oregonensis or a VERY close relative. If you could find buttons of this species with the caps just starting to open up, cortina should be easily visible, especially if you had a magnifying glass handy.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Hotnuts]
    #8013485 - 02/12/08 03:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I will have access to a pyrosequencer soon. I may be able to sequence this mushroom, and then see what results Genbank returns. I am not sure if I will be allowed to use it for any random mushroom (as far as the lab is concerned) but I will certainly find out.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: CureCat]
    #8013536 - 02/12/08 03:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but myxacium cortinarius, like oregonensis, have a bitter tasting cap cuticle. And the cap and stem are sticky from a glutinous universal veil.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Hotnuts]
    #8013564 - 02/12/08 03:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

> I firmly believe them to be Cortinarius oregonensis or a VERY close relative.

I don't see any mention of bluing or a strong odor in that species.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8013871 - 02/12/08 04:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

As far as the odor, I can't say much on that. But the bluing on those mushrooms appear to be from subiculum of a Hypomyces. It certainly appears so. Again, I could be dead wrong.

An interesting i.d. request for sure!


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Hotnuts]
    #8014068 - 02/12/08 05:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

For those of you not familiar with Hypomyces, here's a site that describes the ones known. I ran through some of the taxon, but was unable to find a match. You may have found a new species of Hypomyces hosting whatever you've got there. Maybe not. Hehehe.

http://nt.ars-grin.gov/taxadescriptions/keys/FrameListAllTaxa.cfm?gen=Hypomyces


Edited by Hotnuts (02/12/08 05:28 PM)


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: georgeM]
    #8014760 - 02/12/08 08:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Hotnuts, Ive seen many forms of hypomyces through cultivating and also in the site you just posted and I actually agree with you on your own words. "I was unable to find a match". I seriously believe it is some form of staining or bruising but not hypomyces.

For everyones reference, The caps and stipes were not sticky. They were very wet from the heavy rains which came a few days before.
Also, they never smelled like radish to me. Honestly it smelled more like starch/semen.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #8015496 - 02/12/08 10:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

> Also, they never smelled like radish to me. Honestly it smelled more like starch/semen.

Try rehydrating a little bit, it has a very strong smell, kind of sharp and spicy. Its not quite like radish, but I can't think of anything better to call it.

The pileipellis consists of a thin layer of interwoven hyphae:

Pileipellis 100x


Pileipellis 400x


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8015614 - 02/12/08 10:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well... that eliminates Agrocybe...


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: georgeM]
    #8015683 - 02/12/08 11:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

> Well... that eliminates Agrocybe...

My thoughts exactly.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Hotnuts]
    #8015994 - 02/13/08 12:40 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Hotnuts, we all thought it could be Hypomyces or mold based on the first photo posted, but the photos posted after that show that the mushrooms are obviously not being parasitized or rotten by anything. It's just how the first image looks.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: CureCat]
    #8016292 - 02/13/08 02:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I asked my friend who was with me when we found them whether he thought the mushrooms were slimy or sticky in any sense and he thought that the pluteus cervinus were slimier than these. I agree with him but I wanted to know what he thought nonetheless. It was just really wet.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: CureCat]
    #8017237 - 02/13/08 11:44 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

CureCat said:
Hotnuts, we all thought it could be Hypomyces or mold based on the first photo posted, but the photos posted after that show that the mushrooms are obviously not being parasitized or rotten by anything. It's just how the first image looks.




Ahhh, i've been referring to the first photos too much. Wow, that is obvious bluing! Very neat indeed.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8024825 - 02/14/08 10:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

Tjakko Stijve said: As for the mushroom you sent me, the description is poor, and the pictures could also be improved. It would have been of help to know whether it was growing on the same wooden tronc as Pluteus cervinus. There's a fair chance that it could be Pluteus salicinus, because advanced specimens can really have a bluegreen Pileus . Raphanoid odor is also pointing in that direction. Alternatively, P. cyanopus Rea would be a candidate, but this customer is so rare that I cannot even find a good picture of it on the WEB.




Would you mind taking a look at this mushroom?

http://mushroomobserver.org/6780


Before you say, oh thats easy, its a Pluteus, consider that the gill
attachment is not free, the spores are roughened, the gills are not as
close as pluteus typically are, and the spore print color is brown, without
pinkish hues.





I emailed Tjakko Stijve and asked if he was sure about the Pluteus thing, his reply is below:

Quote:

Tjakko Stijve said:
I must apologize. When I received John Allen's message, I could not open
the pictures, and I was in a hurry, because of having to meet a
deadline. So I did not pay proper attention, and suggested some blueing
Pluteus sp. WRONG!
Your photos show indeed a mushroom closely resembling a Hebeloma, a
darned difficult genus.
I spend the better part of this early morning in going through keys
provided by authors as RICKEN, K?hner & Romagnesi, Courtecuisse, Horak,
and Breitenbach & Kr?nzlin, but nobody comes even close to a species
exhibiting this discrete sky blue color. I also looked under
Phlegmacium, but in vain.
I am sorry I cannot do better. I have consulted some befriended
mycologists. If anything comes up, I' ll inform you.

Best regards,

Tjakko Stijve




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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8025818 - 02/15/08 03:16 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

When I received John Allen's message




OMFG!
:rofl:

alan rockefeller = john allen (???)


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: CureCat]
    #8026754 - 02/15/08 11:03 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No puppets allowed!!
:banbanban:  :rules: :goodmorning:

There is a strong possibility this mushroom has yet to be described. Hopefully the collection site can be checked periodically in the future for more samples.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: georgeM]
    #8027233 - 02/15/08 01:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So what all the worlds mycologists are saying is that I discovered a freak mushroom with attributes of several genus and they have no idea what it is?


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #8027341 - 02/15/08 01:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think you used blue sharpie on it.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: CureCat]
    #8027576 - 02/15/08 02:22 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

> alan rockefeller = john allen (???)

No, he is not my puppet. I don't know why we are always on the same IP address.

> So what all the worlds mycologists are saying is that I discovered a freak mushroom with attributes of several genus and they have no idea what it is?

Most experts have settled on Hebeloma, including Michael Wood from Mykoweb, who says its in Hebeloma based on macroscopic features, microscopic features, and odor.

No one has been able to find any species of Hebeloma with bluing, you you may have found a new species.

See if you can get some more samples.


Edited by Alan Rockefeller (02/15/08 03:53 PM)


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8032521 - 02/16/08 08:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

>No, he is not my puppet. I don't know why we are always on
>the same IP address.

Hehehe, yeah, i was just kidding. I definitely don't think you would get yourself banned multiple times.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: CureCat]
    #8032537 - 02/16/08 08:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ive checked the site i discovered them un several times and nothing has come about although the place is becoming over grown with poison oak so it might become difficult to check in the coming months. I have a belief that they will disappear for some time. hopefully im wrong but the weather has been changing a lot and fast. change of seasons.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #8032876 - 02/16/08 09:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Send alan and i up there, we don't get poison oak.  :grin:


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #8039239 - 02/18/08 06:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Brandon Methany said:

Hi Joe and Alan:

May be a hallucinogenic Inocybe? Compare with Inocybe aeruginascens Babos. There's an icon of this species in Bohus & Babos (1977) Fung. Rar. Ic. Col. 8: pl. 62. I don't seem to have this publication handy at the moment. However, it looks like the stipe is reddening a bit, unlike the description for aeruginascens in Kuyper, but it doesn't really look like icons of haematca and tricolor.

What was the odor like?

Also compare to Inocybe insinuata Kauffman, which is known only from the type locality at Berkeley. Per description (which Kauffman must not have seen fresh) it has aspect like Hebeloma, chalky white pileus, submarginate bulb; I looked at the spores of the isotype while at WTU and observed elliptic spores mostly 7-8 X 4.5-5 um. Not knowing much about it, insinuata could be near geophylla. No green mentioned, but the spores you photographed do look elliptic with rounded apices (that is, not amygdaliform).

If you send me a piece, I'll sequence it.

Regards, Brandon





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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8040855 - 02/18/08 11:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Awesome. Can't wait for the results!


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: CureCat]
    #8051456 - 02/21/08 11:22 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

> Also, they think its now inocybe??? I thought it was definitely in the hebeloma family.

Hebeloma was a rather popular thing to call it last week, but I have heard a lot of different names used to refer to them this week.

As you may have noticed, the new trendy thing to call it is Inocybe. Many people are using this genus to refer to your collection.

I remain unconvinced that its an Inocybe and still call it Hebeloma, and a formal poll of mycologists conducted recently found that 95% of them agree with that name.

Of course, not everyone is convinced.

Have you sent it in for DNA testing?

You may have noticed a tendency in the past few days for people to describe your collection as Pholiota. If you have been to any underground parties or certain coffee shops, you probably have noticed by now that many of the "hipster" types are now referring to your collection as a Pholiota. In fact I overheard a conversation in whole foods this morning, some random chick was telling her mom that it was pholiota subcaerulea and the mom was like no way, its totally a hebeloma, where do you kids get these wack ideas today, did you hear that on TV?



When Amanitarita heard that some people were calling it Pholiota subcaerulea, she decided to contact the worlds most famous Pholiota expert Coleman McCleneghan, the response is below.

Quote:

Coleman McCleneghan said
About that mushroom. With the information given I don’t think Pholiota….spores are wrong. I don’t know about the other characters, not enough to go on. Pholiota subcaerulea; is a Smith and Hesler species, studied from four collections. I always get a little wary about Smith and Hesler species based on so few collections. Maybe the color of the pileus fits but in S&H’s type description they don’t mention roughened spores and they do mention pleurocystidia with highly refractive hyaline amorphous bodies. That fits the definition of a chrysocystidium. The cystidia shown did not seem to fit that description.
Bye
Coleman




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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8051493 - 02/21/08 11:36 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I would like that poll to have more people do it so theres more of a consistency in the vote but its there. nevertheless.

Anyways, so Ive been very busy with work and arranging a large event this weekend but I would like to be reminded who needs samples.

Curecat, do you need a sample for DNA analysis?

Brandon Mantheny needs samples. ( I got this)

anybody else?

Ill have these samples out by saturday. Im not gonna make it to the post office before then...

To bad we cant find a damn family this mushroom goes in. If I could find a new species in my lifetime I could die happy. I would feel that I was able to at least leave some marker on this world. I cant thank you all enough for your efforts.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #8052048 - 02/21/08 02:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

If it's not a new species, it's a damn rare one for sure! Good luck man. I hope you've got something new there! I can't wait to hear about some DNA results.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Hotnuts]
    #8056514 - 02/22/08 01:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well I traversed the poison oak of the forest to find a SINGLE but LARGE specimen today. Ill have the pics up in a few but I have to go shower and adjust the photos for the web. It was found in the exact same spot as the others and blues at the cap like the others. has the same smell too!


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #8056754 - 02/22/08 02:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Awesome!! Can't wait to see the photos!


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8057153 - 02/22/08 03:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

very nice man


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: psilophile.7]
    #8057181 - 02/22/08 04:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Go post count, eh??  :wink:


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: CureCat]
    #8062886 - 02/24/08 12:38 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ok sorry folks for the 36 hour delay. Here are the pictures of the specimen I found on 2/22.





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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #8063070 - 02/24/08 01:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Nice. Dry that.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: CureCat]
    #8064573 - 02/24/08 01:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

almost dry. also have some really good spore prints from this baby.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #8066131 - 02/24/08 08:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

did  i tell you i was happy for you , iam
i have been in the back round , but enjoying all the time :yesnod:

all the very best ......


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: cactu]
    #8066684 - 02/24/08 10:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I don't see any signs of cortina on that one, so that should pretty much ditch Cortinarius. They damn near look like Poison Pie's to be honest. Poison Pie's don't bruise blue though.

Any bluing on the new collections?


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Hotnuts]
    #8066830 - 02/24/08 10:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I see light blue on the cap.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #8320979 - 04/23/08 09:20 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Brandon Methany took a look at it and says its an Inocybe. He said that it might be close to Inocybe corydalina.

I think he got the ID right, it did have a really strong odor that could be considered matsutake-like. It smelled like matsutake and radishes.


Take a look at this mykoweb page which was added recently:

http://mykoweb.com/CAF/species/Inocybe_corydalina.html

Looks like a good match to me.


Edited by Alan Rockefeller (04/23/08 09:27 PM)


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8321163 - 04/23/08 09:56 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Psilocybian compound[s] and muscarine, that's a horrid combination.

alan, cure; i think we all need to march point on subbed's hunts with him, i'm not sensitive to poison oak either. maybe we'll get to find blueing inocybes in california... lol.

on an interesting note, the Inocybe, also from california and identified on this page as I. maculata looks similar, and also demonstrates light blue on the caps. i don't know if the spore/cystidia composite associated with it is from the pictured collection, or a know collection of that species, but the specimens pictured look atypical of that species.

i'm well out of my realm with these mushrooms.


--------------------



Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it.
If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Hotnuts]
    #8321315 - 04/23/08 10:24 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

i laugh a bit when i revive all this thread it evolutionate from an active pluteus, that , then was drove to hebeloma, cortinarius debate , even in the third  page GeorgeM, suggest the answers , no one doubled check(:grin:), then the cortinarius race, got and end and the kingdom of the inocybe, begun in south Cali , one more time ........:loveeyes:
Quote:

georgeM said:
What do you think about something like Inocybe corydalina or Inocybe haemacta - possible synonyms?

Cool mushrooms whatever they are... everyone seems to be looking in the right places. good luck...

Nice micrographs Alan...

Sometimes you can buy used SEMs (without the manual) for the price of used car.




all my best vibrations, let the new maping of the psilocybian species expand .........


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: cactu]
    #8322744 - 04/24/08 11:16 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Im just glad they finally identified it. Or so we think...Hahaw

Well Im gonna go tell my friend whom I found them with that theyre inocybes. Im always gonna be looking for these again. I have a feeling I can find many more in the season to come.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #8322796 - 04/24/08 11:28 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I am glad too. It encourages me to do the microscopy. I might have even figured out the genus if I had already done it since I know what Inocybe cystidia look like.

Excellent conclusion to this mystery.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8322980 - 04/24/08 12:25 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

You are persistent when it comes to seeking out mushroom IDs Alan! Did Brandon examine multiple dried fruitbodies or just a sample for microscopy?

Cool mycoweb page, though I prefer Subbedhunter's photo...

Subbed, you might consider inquiring as to whither they would like to add a copy of your photo to the page.


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8324704 - 04/24/08 08:55 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Excellent work!!

I think Brandon's got this one- thanks for the persistence Alan!  I think you totally tracked down the answer.  Awesome.  An active Inocybe.... that's rad.

I've been doing so many extractions lately, I am quite confident that Else wouldn't mind me throwing this one in with one of the batches.  If you want, next time I see you i can collect a few gill fragments to work on at the lab, eventually to be sequenced.  :ohwell:


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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: canid]
    #8329445 - 04/26/08 03:10 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

> Psilocybian compound[s] and muscarine, that's a horrid combination.


Its not a combination, its one or the other. No psilocybin mushrooms have been found that have other toxins.

Brandon saw this thread and would like to clarify that "European I. corydalina does NOT have muscarine but does have psilocybin. Kuyper (1986) summarizes literature up to that point and reports that others report "all hallucinogenic Inocybe-species were dovoid of muscarine" (Persoonia 3(Suppl.):12).

Inocybe calamistrata belongs to a group that also does not have muscarine, but these are not hallucinogenic."

> I think Brandon's got this one

Yea me too.


> I've been doing so many extractions lately, I am quite confident that Else wouldn't mind me throwing this one in with one of the batches. If you want, next time I see you i can collect a few gill fragments to work on at the lab, eventually to be sequenced.


How much gills do you need for your DNA extraction?


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InvisibleCureCat
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8331986 - 04/26/08 08:02 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

>How much gills do you need for your DNA extraction?

Approximately the size of 4-6 individual bee wings. But a bit more might be good if you can spare, just in case. Also, if you do it, be careful about it... I usually flame sterilize a razor blade and cut off a few small slivers of the lamelle, then put inside a sterile eppendorf with sterile glass beads for the extraction. You gotta be careful not to accidentally get any other fungal DNA in the sample. Less worried about plant matter or whatever, as we use fungi-specific primers.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: CureCat]
    #8333336 - 04/27/08 05:35 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

> Approximately the size of 4-6 individual bee wings.

So some scientists are using the bee wing scale for DNA extraction these days?

I guess thats cool but if I get stung while trying to measure you out some gills for this sample I will be kind of pissed.

Also honey bees are getting really hard to find these days, perhaps you should suggest that they switch to the jellow jacket scale.


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InvisibleCureCat
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8333340 - 04/27/08 05:41 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I don't know... I'm sort of allergic to yellow jackets.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Workman]
    #9779179 - 02/11/09 04:08 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Workman said:Excellent conclusion to this mystery.




It gets better...

Brandon Matheny said:

"Inocybe aff. corydalina. Should be described as a new potentially hallucinogenic species of Inocybe.

This species is closely related to Inocybe corydalina from Europe, but material collected by Kevin Bock in the Santa Monica Mountains on 28-Jan-2008 under Quercus is only 91% similar to European corydalina when comparing their ITS sequences. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of any greening or blue-greening species of Inocybe described from North America with metuloid cystidia and smooth spores.

Regards, Brandon Matheny
University of Tennessee"


"Only 91% similar" is quite a bit of difference from another species in the same genus that looks the same.  Looks like subbedhunter420 has quite a bit of writing to do, maybe Brandon can help a bit.


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OfflineSubbedhunter420
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Re: Possible So cal active (pluteus?) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #9782631 - 02/12/09 01:15 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Ok... well it looks like I need more help.

Good note though! Just by chance, (Or by season and fortunate wet weather!) the suspected Inocybes have popped up in the same spot exactly. About 2 weeks difference of a year. They were found last week and previously I found them on January 28th 2008.

They blue a lot more than the previous bunch too! I will post pictures soon.


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