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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Nirvana...
#7949370 - 01/29/08 07:35 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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How many of you have caught a glimpse of Nirvanic peace?
There have been many definitions but the Buddha himself said it is "the ultimate happyness" attained through the "cessation of suffering" which is brought by non-attachment, and ANYONE can attain Nirvana within one lifetime.
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Edited by Chronic7 (01/29/08 07:42 AM)
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Cubie
Moderator




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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Chronic7]
#7949434 - 01/29/08 08:04 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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in this society? No
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!



Registered: 09/11/04
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Cubie]
#7949446 - 01/29/08 08:07 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Nirvana, as in not being?
Haha... Think about it..
Someone actually coined the word.. Pay som respect?
(Learn to use it.)
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psyka
Praetorian


Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Gomp]
#7949478 - 01/29/08 08:18 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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The Buddha never said it was the ultimate happiness. Even to an awakened mind the feeling of happiness has its beginning and has its end. The difference is he understands this and does not cling to the feeling, does not take it personal, allows it to be there and relaxes into it. When happiness is there it is there, and when it fades it fades, when it ends it ends.
Just practice being simple, useful and loving and you will find yourself swallowed by something more wholesome than happiness.
It is fruitless to discuss nirvana, because all words are conditioned. They are constant. Once something it is written, it has been stated. Nirvana is constantly changing, and unconditioned. It isn't possible to point at it and say, "this is definitely nirvana."
And Gomp, it isn't not being... it is not becoming.
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.

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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: psyka]
#7949500 - 01/29/08 08:24 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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The buddha has been quoted as saying its is ultimate happyness, i dont just make things up unlike some people here.
Maybe it was lost in translation as its more than happyness can be, as its without attachment, i agree it is indefinable and indescribable, but definatley not fruitless to talk about.
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/dharmadata/fdd43.html
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Cubie]
#7949505 - 01/29/08 08:27 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Cubie said: in this society? No
It has nothing to do with the society you live in, thats part of the point! Maintaining inner peace even when surounded by complete chaos.
People seem to bitch about our society, but if you want it to change you have to accept where we are and where we are going and change yourself, the attitude, that "i can never attain nirvana in this society" will mean you never will, how can you depend on how others act for your own inner peace and wisdom?
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Cubie
Moderator




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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Chronic7]
#7949561 - 01/29/08 08:42 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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What ever, you have to be materialistic in some way to even survive in this society.
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straasha
Grandfaloon


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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Cubie]
#7949567 - 01/29/08 08:44 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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You have to be materialistic in some way to survive. period.
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psyka
Praetorian


Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Cubie]
#7949575 - 01/29/08 08:47 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Very true. You can only go so far into behavioral extremes before killing yourself.
Some people say you every action is purely selfish, but I would argue it isn't possible to be purely selfish (or purely unselfish). It seems that the universe likes to play dualistic mind games on us humans. There is no such thing as a self and no such thing as a no-self... the answer is somewhere in between 
I remember an enlightening experience I had on shrooms a few years ago. I went outside and everything was one. I didn't see plant, grass, tree, pond, rock, ants... it all resembled one organism dancing to a familiar song. Duality no longer had a name. Just like there is no such thing as cold, there is only lack of heat, there is no such thing as hate, only lack of love. No life/death... just motion.
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.

Edited by psyka (01/29/08 09:01 AM)
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deimya
tofu and monocle



Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 825
Loc: ausländer.ch
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: straasha]
#7949583 - 01/29/08 08:50 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
straasha said: You have to be materialistic in some way to survive. period.
Was the buddha materialistic ? Because somehow he survived until he died  No no, better, does a materialist have a buddha nature ?
What's depressing is consumerism. Somehow I eat real tomatoes, which makes me a bit of a materialist I guess, unlike, say, Peter Pan.
Edited by deimya (01/29/08 08:53 AM)
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straasha
Grandfaloon


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Re: Nirvana... [Re: deimya]
#7949592 - 01/29/08 08:53 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Was the buddha materialistic ?
Did jesus get a hard on?
There isn't a human born that didnt survive till they died.
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!



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Re: Nirvana... [Re: psyka]
#7949614 - 01/29/08 08:59 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
psyka said: And Gomp, it isn't not being... it is not becoming.
Speak for yourself, as you know you do...
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Cherk
Fashionable


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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Chronic7]
#7949627 - 01/29/08 09:04 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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come on now who goes to nirvana and leaves with a t shirt?
--------------------
I have considered such matters. SIKE
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deimya
tofu and monocle



Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 825
Loc: ausländer.ch
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Cherk]
#7949640 - 01/29/08 09:08 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Kurt Cobain in Summer ?
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: straasha]
#7949657 - 01/29/08 09:14 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
straasha said: You have to be materialistic in some way to survive. period.
I'm barely holding on man
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Chronic7]
#7949697 - 01/29/08 09:27 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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How many of you have caught a glimpse of Nirvanic peace?
I fell into what I have to describe as a Bliss state for over 6 hours once.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
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Loc: off the wall
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We've all aten mushrooms, cmmon now!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Nirvana... [Re: deranger]
#7949772 - 01/29/08 09:54 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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No mushrooms.
Keep trying.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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a 6 hour long orgasm?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: deranger]
#7949788 - 01/29/08 09:59 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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Actually you are not as far off as it seems. My body felt very much like how it feels in the seconds after orgasm. It was a truly beautiful experience.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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So let me ask, how was this experience induced?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Nirvana... [Re: deranger]
#7949807 - 01/29/08 10:05 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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With a certain chemical substance in a very specific set and setting.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Oh common, it's not legitimate if it was drug induced 
(this 2cb feels good btw)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: deranger]
#7949941 - 01/29/08 10:50 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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I never said anything about legitimate. I just had the experience.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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sleepy
zZzZzZzZz


Registered: 01/17/05
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Loc:
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nirvana is a nondual state, samadhi, and yes, there is nothing better, because it IS nothing.
ram dass says if your mind stays on one point for 12 seconds you are one of the most enlightened peole on the planet, so there are people out there who have experienced it, but its pretty rare
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Spiritual Seeker
Nothing Matters



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Re: Nirvana... [Re: sleepy]
#7950158 - 01/29/08 11:56 AM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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I attained that state.....I was high on ecstasy but GOD DAMMIT I WAS THERE!
HOwever because of that experiance it totally changed my life and its safe to say about 3 years later i have definitly attained a minor form of enlightenment.
My life felt like i was walking up a hill that was impossible to view the top. I felt like there was no purpose except for me to Join the marines and die with honor cause i was sick of this life and everything in it. Pain made no sense.
Eating Ecstasy was like throwing my soul out of my body and placing it on top of the hill I was climbing.....then i got to look down and see where i was standing and why i was stuck.
I really caint explain it....which is why im trying to use a metaphor, bottem line is there was no way to explain where i was cause of ecstasy, but by the time it ended i wasnt craving more. It was something so amazing i serious think it was only supposed to happen once in a lifetime, or at least very rarley. THe rest is up to me. 
-------------------- "Nothing in the world is a gift. Whatever there is to learn has to be learned the hard way." -Don juan
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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i dont have good things to say about ecstacy, i used to do it alot and got very good X/MDMA, however i dont think it even compares to where shrooms can take you
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Chronic7]
#7951762 - 01/29/08 06:16 PM (16 years, 3 days ago) |
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I had a spontaneous experience of Asamprajnata Samadhi. It was an infinite, self-effulgent expanse of "Unbearable Compassion" and there was no 'I' or personal frame of reference, no self-conscious awareness of name or embodied being. It was pure Awareness, aware of Itself. It subsided in a heartbeat, retracting from Infinitude to a piercing point of "Unbearable Compassion" in the Heart Cave.
OM MANI PADME HUM - The Absolute is a Jewel in the Lotus of the Heart
The Experience remains with me in memory and continues to motivate me. It occurred one evening in meditation around Christmas time in 1973.
"...and in the startling end...blue-whiteness makes me calm...I dream in the eye of the wind..." - The Fugs
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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we benefit by putting aside reacting to the world. in that direction one finds nibbana. the middle way, however, is the path of compassion, and complete renunciation of the world is reserved until after all beings are enlightened.
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_ 🧠 _
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Boots
Disenchanted


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The closest I've come to a state of pure bliss is listening to music that is atmosphere-heavy, just sat with my eyes closed and focused on the different layers throughout the music.
Edited by Boots (01/30/08 10:49 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: I had a spontaneous experience of Asamprajnata Samadhi. It was an infinite, self-effulgent expanse of "Unbearable Compassion" and there was no 'I' or personal frame of reference, no self-conscious awareness of name or embodied being. It was pure Awareness, aware of Itself. It subsided in a heartbeat, retracting from Infinitude to a piercing point of "Unbearable Compassion" in the Heart Cave.
OM MANI PADME HUM - The Absolute is a Jewel in the Lotus of the Heart
The Experience remains with me in memory and continues to motivate me. It occurred one evening in meditation around Christmas time in 1973.
"...and in the startling end...blue-whiteness makes me calm...I dream in the eye of the wind..." - The Fugs
Unending compassion was the essence of my experience also. For everything without compromise. (I spent some time focusing on the horrifying experiences and acts of individual humans and humanity, I felt only unending compassion for our suffering) While I did not lose sense of myself I did not feel separation from any experience that was not mine. I felt completely connected to everything.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Kamek


Registered: 01/08/05
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Quote:
Icelander said: With a certain chemical substance in a very specific set and setting.
Can you be a little bit more descriptive?? Thanks!
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Kamek]
#7955933 - 01/30/08 02:44 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kamek said:
Quote:
Icelander said: With a certain chemical substance in a very specific set and setting.
Can you be a little bit more descriptive?? Thanks!
Im intruiged too, i have reached orgasmic states before but not for 6 hours str8!!!!
Om Mani Pedeme Hung has a certain ring to it, i only ever read about it once (being the Dalai Lama's main mantra) and it has stuck with me, i find myself chanting it randomly, thanks for the translation as all i knew it was is unconditionl compassion or something alike...
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Kamek]
#7955966 - 01/30/08 02:53 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kamek said:
Quote:
Icelander said: With a certain chemical substance in a very specific set and setting.
Can you be a little bit more descriptive?? Thanks!
It means that if we know how we react to certain situations, we can re-create a scenery in order to feel the same. We are very suggestible beings.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Fugai
Stranger


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Nir-vana means without-form. It is a non-state You can neither attain nor achieve it, if you try you will move further away. Nirvana is the original state of the universe, and so your self. It is the state in which you currently find yourself. It is your own ignorance that causes the false identification. You are unaware of your original state and so you mistake your feelings and thoughts as your self, as being your state. This is of course the source of all suffering. You cannot feel Nirvana, you are nirvana.
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Fugai]
#7956144 - 01/30/08 03:35 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Don't chase the ball, BE the ball.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Kamek]
#7956275 - 01/30/08 04:09 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kamek said:
Quote:
Icelander said: With a certain chemical substance in a very specific set and setting.
Can you be a little bit more descriptive?? Thanks!
First time XTC two hits absolutely pure. A completey darkened, ambient tempeture room, on a bed naked with a body pillow. No music no sound. One hit and then another an hour later. I had been working with heroic dose trips in the wild at night for the proceeding months.
I was completely caught off guard as I wasn't expecting much.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Fugai]
#7956311 - 01/30/08 04:16 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Fugai said: Nir-vana means without-form. It is a non-state You can neither attain nor achieve it, if you try you will move further away. Nirvana is the original state of the universe, and so your self. It is the state in which you currently find yourself. It is your own ignorance that causes the false identification. You are unaware of your original state and so you mistake your feelings and thoughts as your self, as being your state. This is of course the source of all suffering. You cannot feel Nirvana, you are nirvana.
You might waanna check out the buddhas definition of Nirvana, its what you say, but its definately described as attainable thru Non attachment and as "the ultimate/higher happyness" unless they translated the buddha wrong.
I just see it as Pure Love of all brought thru non attachment.
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Edited by Chronic7 (01/30/08 04:19 PM)
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Fugai
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Chronic7]
#7956466 - 01/30/08 04:43 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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The description is a map for those who need it. How can you attain what you already are? Better to use the term realize. Love is attachment to things. Attachment is not acceptance. Better to use the term compassion. Compassion is universal, it is acceptance of things as they are. The texts of the Buddha are just "picking your pocket and trying to sell you your own watch". They have there use only to a certain point. Even Shakyamuni said that.
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Fugai]
#7956534 - 01/30/08 04:52 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Love is attachment to things.
Love in not attachment, love IS acceptance, if love was attachment then it would have been called attachment instead of love. It's kind of simple if you think about it. It is also very true that many people confuse love with attachment, but this doesn't make love itself change it's structure.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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For real no way is love attachment.
Like the old saying, if you truly love something you let it go.
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Edited by Chronic7 (01/30/08 04:55 PM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Chronic7]
#7956557 - 01/30/08 04:57 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Like the old saying, if you truly love something you let it go.
If the case requires  For example, if I am madly in love with someone and he loves me back and we are happy together, why should we "let go"?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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It doesnt mean that, you know what it means you just like talking back to me 
It means you have no attachment to it, its not like saying you should leave them, it just means you have no control over that which you love, no attachment.
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Edited by Chronic7 (01/30/08 05:08 PM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Chronic7]
#7956649 - 01/30/08 05:13 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Entirely true
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Fugai
Stranger


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Your are correct that attachment and love are not synonymous. But you are mistaking attachment to that which is loved for attachment to love itself. I might have done better to say that "love is an attachment". Either way the meaning is fundamentally the same.
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Fugai]
#7956793 - 01/30/08 05:36 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Attachment implies possessives and love can be experienced without this feeling.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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i don't think love is attachment or acceptance. it is beneficience - a kind of consciousness that means to benefit what it contacts. nirvana is postponed until all beings are enlightened because of love
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_ 🧠 _
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Fugai
Stranger


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I thought I expelled the misunderstanding. I clearly stated that love and attachment are not synonymous. Again, your confusing attachment to that which is loved to attachment to love itself. You can think the term implies anything you like. That is your own feeling about it. But it has nothing to do with the reality of the issue. Attachment is absolutely different than possession. The misunderstanding is often what leads to the view that you cannot have one without the other. this is both unhealthy and is another issue entirely. If you love something you will both lament its loss, and/or the loss of your love for it. This is AN attachment. Either to the object of your love, or merely to the love you have for it itself. Either way, it is an attachment. If that doesn't clear it up I will just let it be, I hate repeating myself and going off on tangents.
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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Fugai
Stranger


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I really like that way of thinking about it redgreenvines, that was truly beautiful. Though there again, the meaning of benefit is dependent itself on internal conditions and entirely debatable on its own. Benefit in what way? To believe you can benefit anyone, is to believe that there condition is lacking something in some way. True? What benefit can you be? But ultimately as nirvana implies, there are no beings to enlighten my friend. You must accept un-enlightenment as well.
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Fugai]
#7957051 - 01/30/08 06:16 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
If you love something you will both lament its loss, and/or the loss of your love for it. This is AN attachment. Either to the object of your love, or merely to the love you have for it itself. Either way, it is an attachment.
Not necessarily. Because lament happens when there's lack of understanding regarding the evolution of a situation. For example if my cat was to die, I would feel a certain feeling of sadness, but I would not lament. This is because I would understand that this is the natural course of life, because I would very much prefer to focus on the connection I shared with it. Attachment would happen if I would refuse to let go, to accept the fact of it's death, if I would ask questions as why, if I would think that I (or my cat) have been victims of the circumstances and so on.
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Fugai]
#7957062 - 01/30/08 06:17 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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I think the point is TRUE love is free of ALL attachment.
Theres can not be attachment, otherwise it is not Love, true love is appreciating and accpeting something for what it is, not what you want it to be.
If you truly love something you will NOT lament its loss, you will still love it for whatever it is. If there is any attachment, there is no Love only ego food.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Chronic7]
#7957071 - 01/30/08 06:18 PM (16 years, 2 days ago) |
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chronic777 said: I think the point is TRUE love is free of ALL attachment.
Theres can not be attachment, otherwise it is not Love, true love is appreciating and accpeting something for what it is, not what you want it to be.
If you truly love something you will NOT lament its loss, you will still love it for whatever it is. If there is any attachment, there is no Love only ego food.
Yup
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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True love is unconditional love.
For me, the way to Nirvana is through non-attachment.
As if you have no-attachment you accpet everything for what it is, not what you want it to be, thus you have no fear of anything, and the opposite of fear is love.
So Nirvana is PURE LOVE!
Thats what makes sense to me right now anyway, good night folks! (nice way to end the day!)
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Edited by Chronic7 (01/30/08 06:34 PM)
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Fugai
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No disrespect mushroomtrip, but I can tell your a woman. Your trying to make the issue more complicated than it is. As you said, you will feel sad. I guess that doesn't seem significantly applicable to what I am trying to convey, but it really should. Whether or not you accept the loss has nothing at all to do with the loss itself. You still haven't understood the difference in the attachment of that which is loved and the attachment to love itself. You are attached to your love, it is apparent. That does not mean you are attached to anything you feel love for. Not that being attached to love is a bad thing, it is a good thing I would think. I am merely arguing the philosophical standpoint that is the focus of this thread. And whatever you think about something, thats what it is. But you should understand, as far as Buddhist philosophy is concerned, you are wrong, sorry.
and chronic, as I said before, whatever your focus you will achieve. I won't try and convince you of anything. If your focus is unconditional love, that is beautiful. And if you should realize the state of unconditional love for all beings, that in turn will lead you to Nirvana. My argument was only that they are not one and the same. Cheers
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
Edited by Fugai (01/30/08 07:28 PM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Fugai]
#7959085 - 01/31/08 03:24 AM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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Wow, how did I miss this incredibly retarded post? 
Hmmm, let's see:
Quote:
No disrespect mushroomtrip, but I can tell your a woman.
Can your debating skills get any worse? I guess that we're about to find out.  This kind of remark has no place in this forum. If you're looking for these kinds of dumb remarks, try the OTD. 
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As you said, you will feel sad. I guess that doesn't seem significantly applicable to what I am trying to convey, but it really should.
So does it or doesn't it? You're being ambiguous.
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Whether or not you accept the loss has nothing at all to do with the loss itself.
Your point is?
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You still haven't understood the difference in the attachment of that which is loved and the attachment to love itself.
Of course I did, only that for some reason you find it impossible to understand that it is possible not to feel any form of attachment to either of them. Even in a case of attachment to love, the example that I gave still applies, since the reactions would be the same:
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Because lament happens when there's lack of understanding regarding the evolution of a situation. For example if my cat was to die, I would feel a certain feeling of sadness, but I would not lament. This is because I would understand that this is the natural course of life, because I would very much prefer to focus on the connection I shared with it. Attachment would happen if I would refuse to let go, to accept the fact of it's death, if I would ask questions as why, if I would think that I (or my cat) have been victims of the circumstances and so on.
If I were to feel attachment towards the love for my cat, I would have kicked and screamed and refused to accept the situation.
Or perhaps, if you don't agree, you could provide with an example on how exactly does attachment to love would manifest, other that what I explained. 
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You are attached to your love, it is apparent.
Interesting.  Care to elaborate?
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And whatever you think about something, thats what it is.
Really? So if I think that pigs can fly and grow and afro haircut, it means that it will happen. 
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But you should understand, as far as Buddhist philosophy is concerned, you are wrong, sorry.
Reading biased buddhist books and then copying and pasting is kind of lame if you ask me.  For example:
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Nir-vana means without-form. It is a non-state You can neither attain nor achieve it, if you try you will move further away. Nirvana is the original state of the universe, and so your self. It is the state in which you currently find yourself. It is your own ignorance that causes the false identification. You are unaware of your original state and so you mistake your feelings and thoughts as your self, as being your state. This is of course the source of all suffering. You cannot feel Nirvana, you are nirvana.
Keep digging.
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prankster
the twin
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Why would attachment demand kicking and screaming?
Seriously, how would you react if FWG suddenly called you tomorrow to tell you he wanted out?
There is nothing wrong with crying a little and experiencing sadness. Attachment is not either/or, black/white. Maybe there are neurotic degrees of attachment, and also healthy ways of being attached? Like a couple fusing a bit. So losing your companion would be like losing a bit of yourself that you really liked.
Maybe attachment means different things for different people.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Kicking and screaming? So if I point out the idiotic remarks such as "you're a woman and that's why you say this", blah blah blah, it is suddenly kicking and screaming.
As you saw (or not) I already made the difference between feeling sad and having an emotional attachment. In my opinion, sadness can and is being experienced, without the necessity of being attached. The difference resides in the fact that when one is not attached, one is able to get along with one's live, continue breathing and searching for understanding and happiness. When one feels like one doesn't want to live anymore, experience deep depressions, hate, the appetite for revenge, THAT is attachment.
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prankster
the twin
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
Love is attachment to things.
Love in not attachment, love IS acceptance, if love was attachment then it would have been called attachment instead of love. It's kind of simple if you think about it.
By the same logic, wouldn't love be called acceptance if it was acceptance?
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prankster
the twin
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Kicking and screaming? So if I point out the idiotic remarks such as "you're a woman and that's why you say this", blah blah blah, it is suddenly kicking and screaming.
As you saw (or not) I already made the difference between feeling sad and having an emotional attachment. In my opinion, sadness can and is being experienced, without the necessity of being attached. The difference resides in the fact that when one is not attached, one is able to get along with one's live, continue breathing and searching for understanding and happiness. When one feels like one doesn't want to live anymore, experience deep depressions, hate, the appetite for revenge, THAT is attachment.
But WHY does it have to be that extreme?
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MushroomTrip
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No, I expressed myself incomplete. But yes, one of the things that Love automatically includes is acceptance. I could also say that, in some cases, feeling only acceptance is love. Because love has many forms of manifestation, and this, in my opinion, is one of them.
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prankster
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Kicking and screaming? So if I point out the idiotic remarks such as "you're a woman and that's why you say this", blah blah blah, it is suddenly kicking and screaming.
But it was you who said 'If I were to feel attachment towards the love for my cat, I would have kicked and screamed and refused to accept the situation.'
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MushroomTrip
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Quote:
But WHY does it have to be that extreme?
What exactly are you talking about? Attachment? Why does attachment has to be that extreme? Or what?
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prankster
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
But WHY does it have to be that extreme?
What exactly are you talking about? Attachment? Why does attachment has to be that extreme?
Yes.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Quote:
prankster said:
Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Kicking and screaming? So if I point out the idiotic remarks such as "you're a woman and that's why you say this", blah blah blah, it is suddenly kicking and screaming.
But it was you who said 'If I were to feel attachment towards the love for my cat, I would have kicked and screamed and refused to accept the situation.'
Er, I am not sure where you are trying to get with all that?  Yes, I said that. I gave an example of how attachment manifests itself. My statement still stands as I see no contradiction.  Can you realize the meaning of "if"? It hints towards a hypothetical scenery. So, I am asking you again. What exactly don't you understand or find erroneous with this statement?
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MushroomTrip
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Quote:
prankster said:
Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
But WHY does it have to be that extreme?
What exactly are you talking about? Attachment? Why does attachment has to be that extreme?
Yes.
Hmmm, because this is how attachment works?
Asking this question is very similar to asking why do people scream when they're irritated.
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prankster
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Yes, I realize that you are talking about a hypotethical situation where you lose your cat. What I fail to understand is why the reaction to attachment has to be so strong. Couldn't you be a little less attached, or have a better way of dealing with the fact that you lost something that you were attached to?
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prankster
the twin
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I never scream when I am irritated.
Maybe that is how attachment works for you, but not for everyone else?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Quote:
prankster said: Yes, I realize that you are talking about a hypotethical situation where you lose your cat. What I fail to understand is why the reaction to attachment has to be so strong. Couldn't you be a little less attached, or have a better way of dealing with the fact that you lost something that you were attached to?
Because attachment produces depression, suffering. It is so by it's immediate nature. It might be true that not everybody kicks and screams when they lose the object of their attachment, but my example was just an example meant to draw a basic idea, not to get in details. If I were to get in details, I would have mentioned ALL the manifestations of feeling miserable and not wanting to face reality anymore. Which are more than a lot.
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prankster
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Like for example feeling sad (which would be a more subtle reaction, but healthy in my opinion)?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Quote:
prankster said: I never scream when I am irritated.
Maybe that is how attachment works for you, but not for everyone else?
As I said before, it was just an example, of the many others. I am not here to give ALL the possible examples, but to prove a point. And you can do that well enough with a generic example... for those who are willing to listen
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Quote:
prankster said: Like for example feeling sad (which would be a more subtle reaction, but healthy in my opinion)?
No, feeling sad without having other negative reactions as I earlier mentioned is not attachment, at least not in my opinion. I am sorry, I guess we will just have to agree or disagree on this one, as I already made my statement and proved my point, and apparently (if you don't wanna add anything, so did you). But first I need a clarification from you: what do you see in simply feeling sad but perfectly going on with your life, as being attachment?
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prankster
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Not even sure if we disagree that much. I see your point. This is what words do maybe.
I just think there is a reason for that sadness. And I'm not sure attachment is such a negative word in my vocabulary. If it was impossible to go on with life after losing someone I loved (ie a family member), then that would be unhealthy and highly neurotic reaction to that attachment being broken. But I would still carry the memories. That means I would keep them attached to my heart the rest of my life. And those memories would be part of me.
I looked up the word on webster's, just to clarify what it means:
Attachment Noun
1. A feeling of affection for a person or an institution.
2. A supplementary part or accessory.
3. A writ authorizing the seizure of property that may be needed for the payment of a judgment in a judicial proceeding.
4. A connection that fastens things together.
5. Faithful support for a religion or cause or political party.
6. The act of attaching something.
7. The act of fastening things together.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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And I am talking about attachment from a psychological point of view 
Quote:
Attachment disorder is a broad term intended to describe disorders of mood, behavior, and social relationships arising from a failure to form normal attachments to primary care giving figures in early childhood, resulting in problematic social expectations and behaviors. Such a failure would result from unusual early experiences of neglect, abuse, abrupt separation from caregivers after about age 6 months but before about age 3 years, frequent change of caregivers or excessive numbers of caregivers, or lack of caregiver responsiveness to child communicative efforts. A problematic history of social relationships occurring after about age 3 may be distressing to a child, but does not result in attachment disorder.
The term attachment disorder is most often used to describe emotional and behavioral problems of young children, but is sometimes applied to school-age children or even to adults. The specific difficulties implied depend on the age of the individual being assessed and a child's attachment-related behaviors may be very different with one familiar adult than with another, suggesting that the disorder is within the relationship and interactions of the two people rather than an aspect of one or the other personality. [1] No list of symptoms can legitimately be presented but generally the term attachment disorder refers to the absence or distortion of age-appropriate social behaviors with adults. For example, in a toddler, attachment-disordered behavior could include a failure to stay near familiar adults in a strange environment or to be comforted by contact with a familiar person, whereas in a six-year-old attachment-disordered behavior might involve excessive friendliness and inappropriate approaches to strangers.
More info in that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_disorder Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_therapy http://www.helpguide.org/mental/parenting_bonding_reactive_attachment_disorder.htm
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prankster
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But that is attachment disorder. And as the quote says, arising from a failure to form normal attachments.
See the difference?
Oh well, I need to go to bed anyway. It is 0726 AM. Trolls must sleep when the sun comes up.
Edited by prankster (01/31/08 06:27 AM)
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MushroomTrip
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Read also what follows. It's about the relationship between children and caregivers. All the relations that we form in early childhood have a form of attachment, due to the vulnerability, lack of any form of experience and need for protection. IF the attachment from that period is normal, then as grow ups we become free of it, we evolve, we grow, we reach mental maturity.
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psyka
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I believe this is why the Buddha said talking about nibbana is fruitless.
Nothing but a wall of opinions.
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.

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prankster
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Dammit, you sucked me back in. I read what followed in the first link you posted and this is what I saw:
Thirdly, some authors have suggested that attachment, as an aspect of emotional development, is better assessed along a spectrum than considered to fall into two non-overlapping categories. This spectrum would have at one end the characteristics called secure attachment; midway along the range of disturbance would be insecure or other undesirable attachment styles; at the other extreme would be non-attachment.
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In Bowlby's approach, the human infant has a need for a secure relationship with adult caregivers, without which normal social and emotional development will not occur. However, different relationship experiences can lead to different developmental outcomes. A number of attachment styles in infants with distinct characteristics have been identified known as secure attachment, avoidant attachment, anxious attachment and disorganized attachment. These can be measured in both infants and adults. In addition to care-seeking by children, attachment behaviours include peer relationships of all ages, romantic and sexual attraction, and responses to the care needs of infants or sick or elderly adults.
...
Hazan and Shaver extended attachment theory to adult romantic relationships in 1987. It was originally characterized by three dimensions: secure, anxious/ambivalent and avoidant. Later research showed that attachment is best thought of as two different dimensions: anxiety and avoidance. These dimensions are often drawn as an X and Y axis. In this model secure individuals are low in both anxiety and avoidance. Thus, attachment can also be broken down into four categories: secure, anxious-ambivalent (preoccupied), avoidant (dismissive), and fearful-avoidant. However, people's attachment varies continuously so most researchers do not currently think in terms of categories.
So maybe... At least now I remember why I stopped debating. Heh.
Edited by prankster (01/31/08 07:12 AM)
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: psyka]
#7959534 - 01/31/08 09:26 AM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
psyka said: I believe this is why the Buddha said talking about nibbana is fruitless.
Nothing but a wall of opinions.
But if we want to attain or realise nirvana we need to follow what the buddha taught about it and what he said is you reach it through non attachment and it is the highest happyness which to me implies pure love.
And non attachment and unconditional love go hand in hand. so unconditional love isnt nirvana but it is on the right path....
Last night after all this debating i smoked a spliff, watched chronos for the 1st time (great film!) then switched out the lights and just breathed and breathed, i got into such an ecstatic state until i went to sleep, it was awesome as earlier in the day i was feeling quite depressed.
I hadnt slept that well for ages!
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Icelander
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Chronic7]
#7959541 - 01/31/08 09:29 AM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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Last night after all this debating i smoked a spliff, watched chronos for the 1st time (great film!) then switched out the lights and just breathed and breathed, i got into such an ecstatic state until i went to sleep, it was awesome as earlier in the day i was feeling quite depressed.
I hadnt slept that well for ages!
And this is how it goes.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deranger


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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Chronic7]
#7959961 - 01/31/08 12:06 PM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
chronic777 said: But if we want to attain or realise nirvana we need to follow what the buddha taught about it
Buddha probably would've advised only to follow oneself and use other's teachings merely as a tool in understanding and realizing the mind.
There is a book about a person who started meditating at 7 or so years old (spent his whole life in almost complete silence), and at 20 went through a year long process of ego dissolusion/loss/death/transcendence. The explanation of his experience was similar to that of what happens during ego death on acid or mushrooms, except naturally induced and extended over a year. This was the outcome -
"I went to sleep near about eight. It was not like sleep. Now I can understand what Patanjali means when he says that sleep and samadhi are similar. Only with one difference -- that in samadhi you are fully awake and asleep also. Asleep and awake together, the whole body relaxed, every cell of the body totally relaxed, all functioning relaxed, and yet a light of awareness burns within you... clear, smokeless. You remain alert and yet relaxed, loose but fully awake. The body is in the deepest sleep possible and your consciousness is at its peak. The peak of consciousness and the valley of the body meet.
I went to sleep. It was a very strange sleep. The body was asleep, I was awake. It was so strange -- as if one was torn apart into two directions, two dimensions; as if the polarity has become completely focused, as if I was both the polarities together... the positive and negative were meeting, sleep and awareness were meeting, death and life were meeting. That is the moment when you can say 'the creator and the creation meet.'
It was weird. For the first time it shocks you to the very roots, it shakes your foundations. You can never be the same after that experience; it brings a new vision to your life, a new quality.
Near about twelve my eyes suddenly opened -- I had not opened them. The sleep was broken by something else. I felt a great presence around me in the room. It was a very small room. I felt a throbbing life all around me, a great vibration -- almost like a hurricane, a great storm of light, joy, ecstasy. I was drowning in it.
It was so tremendously real that everything became unreal. The walls of the room became unreal, the house became unreal, my own body became unreal. Everything was unreal because now there was for the first time reality.
That's why when Buddha and Shankara say the world is maya, a mirage, it is difficult for us to understand. Because we know only this world, we don't have any comparison. This is the only reality we know. What are these people talking about -- this is maya, illusion? This is the only reality. Unless you come to know the really real, their words cannot be understood, their words remain theoretical. They look like hypotheses. Maybe this man is propounding a philosophy -- 'The world is unreal'.
When Berkley in the West said that the world is unreal, he was walking with one of his friends, a very logical man; the friend was almost a skeptic. He took a stone from the road and hit Berkley's feet hard. Berkley screamed, blood rushed out, and the skeptic said, 'Now, the world is unreal? You say the world is unreal? -- then why did you scream? This stone is unreal? -- then why did you scream? Then why are you holding your leg and why are you showing so much pain and anguish on your face. Stop this? It is all unreal.
Now this type of man cannot understand what Buddha means when he says the world is a mirage. He does not mean that you can pass through the wall. He is not saying this -- that you can eat stones and it will make no difference whether you eat bread or stones. He is not saying that.
He is saying that there is a reality. Once you come to know it, this so-called reality simply pales out, simply becomes unreal. With a higher reality in vision the comparison arises, not otherwise.
In the dream; the dream is real. You dream every night. Dream is one of the greatest activities that you go on doing. If you live sixty years, twenty years you will sleep and almost ten years you will dream. Ten years in a life -- nothing else do you do so much. Ten years of continuous dreaming -- just think about it. And every night.... And every morning you say it was unreal, and again in the night when you dream, dream becomes real.
In a dream it is so difficult to remember that this is a dream. But in the morning it is so easy. What happens? You are the same person. In the dream there is only one reality. How to compare? How to say it is unreal? Compared to what? It is the only reality. Everything is as unreal as everything else so there is no comparison. In the morning when you open your eyes another reality is there. Now you can say it was all unreal. Compared to this reality, dream becomes unreal.
There is an awakening -- compared to THAT reality of THAT awakening, this whole reality becomes unreal.
That night for the first time I understood the meaning of the word maya. Not that I had not known the word before, not that I was not aware of the meaning of the word. As you are aware, I was also aware of the meaning -- but I had never understood it before. How can you understand without experience?
That night another reality opened its door, another dimension became available. Suddenly it was there, the other reality, the separate reality, the really real, or whatsoever you want to call it -- call it god, call it truth, call it dhamma, call it tao, or whatsoever you will. It was nameless. But it was there -- so opaque, so transparent, and yet so solid one could have touched it. It was almost suffocating me in that room. It was too much and I was not yet capable of absorbing it.
A deep urge arose in me to rush out of the room, to go under the sky -- it was suffocating me. It was too much! It will kill me! If I had remained a few moments more, it would have suffocated me -- it looked like that.
I rushed out of the room, came out in the street. A great urge was there just to be under the sky with the stars, with the trees, with the earth... to be with nature. And immediately as I came out, the feeling of being suffocated disappeared. It was too small a place for such a big phenomenon. Even the sky is a small place for that big phenomenon. It is bigger than the sky. Even the sky is not the limit for it. But then I felt more at ease.
I walked towards the nearest garden. It was a totally new walk, as if gravitation had disappeared. I was walking, or I was running, or I was simply flying; it was difficult to decide. There was no gravitation, I was feeling weightless -- as if some energy was taking me. I was in the hands of some other energy.
For the first time I was not alone, for the first time I was no more an individual, for the first time the drop has come and fallen into the ocean. Now the whole ocean was mine, I was the ocean. There was no limitation. A tremendous power arose as if I could do anything whatsoever. I was not there, only the power was there.
I reached to the garden where I used to go every day. The garden was closed, closed for the night. It was too late, it was almost one o'clock in the night. The gardeners were fast asleep. I had to enter the garden like a thief, I had to climb the gate. But something was pulling me towards the garden. It was not within my capacity to prevent myself. I was just floating.
That's what I mean when I say again and again 'float with the river, don't push the river'. I was relaxed, I was in a let-go. I was not there. IT was there, call it god -- god was there.
I would like to call it IT, because god is too human a word, and has become too dirty by too much use, has become too polluted by so many people. Christians, Hindus, Mohammedans, priests and politicians -- they all have corrupted the beauty of the word. So let me call it IT. IT was there and I was just carried away... carried by a tidal wave.
The moment I entered the garden everything became luminous, it was all over the place -- the benediction, the blessedness. I could see the trees for the first time -- their green, their life, their very sap running. The whole garden was asleep, the trees were asleep. But I could see the whole garden alive, even the small grass leaves were so beautiful.
I looked around. One tree was tremendously luminous -- the maulshree tree. It attracted me, it pulled me towards itself. I had not chosen it, god himself has chosen it. I went to the tree, I sat under the tree. As I sat there things started settling. The whole universe became a benediction.
It is difficult to say how long I was in that state. When I went back home it was four o'clock in the morning, so I must have been there by clock time at least three hours -- but it was infinity. It had nothing to do with clock time. It was timeless.
Those three hours became the whole eternity, endless eternity. There was no time, there was no passage of time; it was the virgin reality -- uncorrupted, untouchable, unmeasurable.
And that day something happened that has continued -- not as a continuity -- but it has still continued as an undercurrent. Not as a permanency -- each moment it has been happening again and again. It has been a miracle each moment.
That night... and since that night I have never been in the body. I am hovering around it. I became tremendously powerful and at the same time very fragile. I became very strong, but that strength is not the strength of a Mohammed Ali. That strength is not the strength of a rock, that strength is the strength of a rose flower -- so fragile in his strength... so fragile, so sensitive, so delicate."
"But I have never been in the body again, I am just hovering around the body. And that's why I say it has been a tremendous miracle. Each moment I am surprised I am still here, I should not be. I should have left any moment, still I am here. Every morning I open my eyes and I say, 'So, again I am still here?' Because it seems almost impossible. The miracle has been a continuity."
I guess my closest experience with nirvana was on acid+pot alone when I was sucked into a giant rotating mandala vortex. I spun into the center and came out expanded, I was hovering around my body yet could still utilize my body at the same time. I could see my body from above from multiple points/angles, yet I could see from my physical eyes as well. I had no memory of my past, even my name. My thought process was nowhere to be found. After that it made a little more sense to me what those satgurus were after...
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MarkostheGnostic
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Registered: 12/09/99
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This was clearly, the most 'discontinuous' experience that had ever occurred, but, paradoxically, it is difficult to call it an experience because the experiencing subject seems to have disappeared. This is why I think it was a case of Asamprajnata, at least according to descriptions of the state. During the 'experienced, 'I' was completely dissolved in "Unbearable Compassion" and when it subsided (or the wave-function collapsed) It had entered into 'me,' or perhaps WAS 'me' at the deepest level of being, once again veiled by my egoic mind of sensations, thoughts and feelings. I understand the language which speaks of entering fully into one's own Self. This Self is God, not our conditioned collage of an ego.
If dying is re-entering THAT, in which there is no 'I' to feel sadness, regret, loss or anything our egoic mind fears, then dying will be like slipping into a hot bath, figuratively, with the pain of chronic multiplicity evaporating in the warmth of indivisible Oneness. In other words, it won't be a bad thing at all, given that one has to die after all.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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If dying is re-entering THAT, in which there is no 'I' to feel sadness, regret, loss or anything our egoic mind fears, then dying will be like slipping into a hot bath, figuratively, with the pain of chronic multiplicity evaporating in the warmth of indivisible Oneness. In other words, it won't be a bad thing at all, given that one has to die after all.
This is my belief and fondest hope. Given the pettiness and dysfunction of my current personality I would like to see it dissolve.
If it is possibly true that love is the creative force and powerhouse of Tao then the base of love is unconditionalness.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Fugai
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Icelander]
#7989907 - 02/06/08 11:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I am so glad I took a few days rest. GEEEEZ
Pankster - Thanks for keeping up the debate, but I'm sure you've realized by now - There is no convincing her of anything (Mushroomtrip) even if her own contradictions are PAINFULLY obvious:D
Mushroomtrip - Your problem is called Pluralistic Relativism, plus you tend to Project a great deal. I don't think I'll bother responding to you any more. From what I have been able to tell you don't actually help further the conversation in any way. In fact I notice you have no idea what your talking about. And you just drag others into ridiculously circular arguments. Cheers.
Chronic777 - I understand what your saying in terms of the way in which you perceive of Nirvana and the way in which you perceive of achieving it. If you see Nirvana as absolute love and thats what your trying to achieve, thats great. But again, you should understand philosophically you are mistaken. Not so much subjectively, but in the context of Buddhist philosophy. Nirvana (or Nibbana for those using the Pali cannon) precisely means "without-form". It is the "highest" realization, if one can use a vertical mode of comparison. The realization of absolute love, or dissolution in "object", is more correctly the state of Samadhi(concentration). Samadhi is still dualistic in the sense that there is still the subject/object relation even though it relates the state of dissolution in "object". Nirvana is non-dual, Subject and Object are "not-two". If you had realized Nirvana, who would there be to Love Absolutely? Do you really believe we are all separate from you?
Synthetic mind - You are absolutely correct. In fact the Buddha said exactly that. He related it in the story of the boat and the shore. He said, in short, that it would be a mis-use of the boat to carry it on your back once you had reached the far shore. So implying it is a mis-use of the scriptures to continue to use-them/rely-on-them after you have realized there purpose/meaning.
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Fugai]
#7990996 - 02/07/08 10:05 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I feel Nirvana is pure unconditional love in a way because it is free of attachment to other things, as it is everything.
And true love is based in this rule also, you can cannot truly love anything unless you are unattached to it.
I know Nirvana isnt unconditional love, yet it is, 
Its weird my consciousness (if you will) totally understands it, and can feel it yet my brian just cannot contemplate it, like thinking about it is pointless, you can only be it.
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Chronic7]
#7991112 - 02/07/08 10:48 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
chronic777 said: I feel Nirvana is pure unconditional love in a way because it is free of attachment to other things, as it is everything.
but what is pure unconditional love?
i think it is also much more than pure unconditional love. unconditional love is just a word we have constructed in our minds through various feelings and concepts we have experienced. there is much more awakening for us to flower in our life, and once the flower has bloomed we've only emerged out of the cocoon. i think nirvana is more of a process than a state, and there are many layers we can awaken to.
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: deranger]
#7991234 - 02/07/08 11:17 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I feel Nirvana is all there is, its the only thing that escapes impermanance, it is "heaven" if you will, but when we feel this as a temporary force/feeling/energy in human physical form, i think unconditional love describes it best, but thats just for me, to cater to my ego in all honesty, as it implies acceptance of all for what it is not what your ego wishes it to be.
Im not saying Nirvana IS unconditional love, but unconditional love is closely related to it, in the sense if you feel nothing but unconditional love/non attachment (as true love/accpetance is free of all atatchment) then at death you shall be Nirvana for ever and ever.
I wouldn't even say unconditional love is a feeling, its truley BEing. I feel most feelings are attached to outcomes, however BEing isnt.
Im sure we could discuss this till we are blue int he face and still get nowhere, but thats the beauty of being a self conscious human being 
I think my focus should be more on being here now (being free of attachment for the future and past)

ps the internet is an amazing aspect of technology, imagine if you guys werent here to talk to....not alot of my friends/family are spiritual people and anytime i try and bring them a small bit of enlightenment they ask me to stop with all the hippie bullcrap.
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Chronic7]
#7991315 - 02/07/08 11:44 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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that is the way i feel too. but i must always keep in mind that there is much more unity to be made aware of, and that there is most likely a whole other reality our awareness has not tapped into yet.
i feel ya on the friends/family labelling this all as hippie bullshit. but i look at how miserable they are in their daily lives and it really makes me smile.
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: deranger]
#7991628 - 02/07/08 01:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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but seeing that misery makes me want to help them realise true nature.
my stepdad is constantly reading stephen hawking and encyclopedia's searching for knowledge (due to mid life crisis) if only he would hear me instead of just listening...
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Fugai
Stranger


Registered: 01/27/08
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Chronic7]
#7991870 - 02/07/08 02:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Synthetic Mind gets it essentially. Everyone has there path, and in the end I know we will all arrive. It seems your on the path of devotion, which is beautiful. Your step dad seems to be on the path of knowledge, which is admirable. Both of you, I have no doubt, will come to the realization of the underlying unity (Nirvana) given that you stay the course. But the one point I would like to make, that I have been trying in various ways to convey, is that having realized underlying unity what other is there to Love unconditionally? Just ask yourself a couple questions, that I have already posited. These questions lie at the heart of the understanding of Unconditional Love, and Underlying Unity. Do you really believe that you are separate from that which you love? Ultimately we are what we seek to understand. Something that has caused a lot of pain in my life is exactly an issue you touched on, wanting to help others rid themselves of their own suffering. I hope you soon realize, long before I did, that you cannot help anyone, there is no-one to help my friend. People can only help themselves, and trying to help them realize something that their awareness is just not ready to accept can actually work in the reverse. It is this struggle that has lead me to write and adopt my principles of acceptance, which I always post as my signature. In the context of your step-dad, you must trust that the path of knowledge will lead him to the far shore. That doesn't mean you shouldn't help when asked though, but only answer those questions that he comes to on his own. People who here something their not ready to accept more often than not reject the entire concept and will not revisit it.
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Chronic7]
#7992094 - 02/07/08 03:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
chronic777 said: but seeing that misery makes me want to help them realise true nature.
absolutely, it is just so hard for some of them who are so deeply rooted in darkness.
whatever you say they already have a premeditated preconceived judgement of. you can only point them in the direction into themselves, which is fucking hard.
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Fugai]
#7992118 - 02/07/08 03:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fugai said:But the one point I would like to make, that I have been trying in various ways to convey, is that having realized underlying unity what other is there to Love unconditionally?
Too true, there is no other except onself, one being in one a giant heart pulsing in the body that is our galaxy. now how much we can realize this is beyond me.
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Fugai]
#7992204 - 02/07/08 03:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I get you.
One can only liberate oneself.
This is hard to explain in words but i don't see love as separate from anything, i dont think ofit as if there has to be something TO love.
Unconditional love is:
total acceptance nonattachment pure peace pristine awareness pure life everywhere
And all these things can be said of Nirvana too, all im doing is pointing out they have the same fundamental principles. Not making a sweeping statement like they are one in the same, like i might have done in the past. Sorry if i did that.
Nirvana has been described by the Buddha himself as the highest love/happyness, pure eternal bliss. The mind/consciousness free from craving. And true love is also free from all craving.
Foprever unconditional love will be my own personal path to Nirvana. Other may have different paths but i am sure that unconditional love will be what liberates me, feel free to question it as it only tests my faith in it...which is nice
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Fugai]
#7992716 - 02/07/08 05:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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There is no convincing her of anything
Fugai, personalisms are against the rules of this forum. That means you debate the issues being brought up, but you leave the people you're debating out of the debate.
This forum is about philosophy, not gossip. Please stick to the topic.
Consider this a formal warning.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Fugai
Stranger


Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 80
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Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Chronic7]
#7993508 - 02/07/08 07:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
This is hard to explain in words but i don't see love as separate from anything, i dont think ofit as if there has to be something TO love.
Unconditional love is:
total acceptance nonattachment pure peace pristine awareness pure life everywhere
And all these things can be said of Nirvana too, all im doing is pointing out they have the same fundamental principles. Not making a sweeping statement like they are one in the same, like i might have done in the past. Sorry if i did that.
Nirvana has been described by the Buddha himself as the highest love/happyness, pure eternal bliss. The mind/consciousness free from craving. And true love is also free from all craving.
Foprever unconditional love will be my own personal path to Nirvana. Other may have different paths but i am sure that unconditional love will be what liberates me, feel free to question it as it only tests my faith in it...which is nice
I understand what your conveying now. It's all been a matter of dialectic. As it is always it seems. I have always said the central disagreement between people is most often not what is being discussed, but the terms in which we discuss it.;) You would really enjoy the philosophy of Deleuze. In my opinion he is the only non-dualistic post-modernist, and as Foucault once said we may in time see this as the Deleuzian age. His premise is similar to your own. He uses the term "immanence" to describe that "ground-of-all/love-for-all" (if I may so simplify). You should give him a look.
And Diploid - I respect that you saw that as an attack on another member and must, of your position, say something about it. I will say that the entire phrase you quoted, taken as a whole, is merely the definition of "incorrigible", also indicating/implying "not correctable". In my opinion that is not an attack of the person (nor was it meant to be), merely an observation on a particular trait. A trait that is not conducive of debate. My comment was not meant to demean, more to reflect my opinion that it is better not to even respond. You might notice, though it is petty for me to have to bring it to light, that she was being antagonistic. But, do what you need. It affects me little - even your public indignity. I think everyone can see I was right
-------------------- Principles of acceptance * People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves. * When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.
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bodhiman777
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: psyka]
#7993597 - 02/07/08 07:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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well said. being one who has had an active relationship with nirvana, i wouldn't recommend it. it will tear you apart. no happiness or complacency can be found there.
Edited by bodhiman777 (02/07/08 10:51 PM)
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manyc
♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫


Registered: 01/03/04
Posts: 571
Loc: Axis Mundi
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Enjoy the sweetness of life while you can.
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Hemp could Save the World. "There is no flag that is large enough, to hide the shame of a man in cuffs." -Serj Tankian Know Thyself. "If the words 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on." -Terence Mckenna
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