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prankster
the twin
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Kicking and screaming? So if I point out the idiotic remarks such as "you're a woman and that's why you say this", blah blah blah, it is suddenly kicking and screaming.
But it was you who said 'If I were to feel attachment towards the love for my cat, I would have kicked and screamed and refused to accept the situation.'
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Quote:
But WHY does it have to be that extreme?
What exactly are you talking about? Attachment? Why does attachment has to be that extreme? Or what?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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prankster
the twin
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
But WHY does it have to be that extreme?
What exactly are you talking about? Attachment? Why does attachment has to be that extreme?
Yes.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Quote:
prankster said:
Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Kicking and screaming? So if I point out the idiotic remarks such as "you're a woman and that's why you say this", blah blah blah, it is suddenly kicking and screaming.
But it was you who said 'If I were to feel attachment towards the love for my cat, I would have kicked and screamed and refused to accept the situation.'
Er, I am not sure where you are trying to get with all that?  Yes, I said that. I gave an example of how attachment manifests itself. My statement still stands as I see no contradiction.  Can you realize the meaning of "if"? It hints towards a hypothetical scenery. So, I am asking you again. What exactly don't you understand or find erroneous with this statement?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Quote:
prankster said:
Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
But WHY does it have to be that extreme?
What exactly are you talking about? Attachment? Why does attachment has to be that extreme?
Yes.
Hmmm, because this is how attachment works?
Asking this question is very similar to asking why do people scream when they're irritated.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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prankster
the twin
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Yes, I realize that you are talking about a hypotethical situation where you lose your cat. What I fail to understand is why the reaction to attachment has to be so strong. Couldn't you be a little less attached, or have a better way of dealing with the fact that you lost something that you were attached to?
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prankster
the twin
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I never scream when I am irritated.
Maybe that is how attachment works for you, but not for everyone else?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Quote:
prankster said: Yes, I realize that you are talking about a hypotethical situation where you lose your cat. What I fail to understand is why the reaction to attachment has to be so strong. Couldn't you be a little less attached, or have a better way of dealing with the fact that you lost something that you were attached to?
Because attachment produces depression, suffering. It is so by it's immediate nature. It might be true that not everybody kicks and screams when they lose the object of their attachment, but my example was just an example meant to draw a basic idea, not to get in details. If I were to get in details, I would have mentioned ALL the manifestations of feeling miserable and not wanting to face reality anymore. Which are more than a lot.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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prankster
the twin
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Like for example feeling sad (which would be a more subtle reaction, but healthy in my opinion)?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Quote:
prankster said: I never scream when I am irritated.
Maybe that is how attachment works for you, but not for everyone else?
As I said before, it was just an example, of the many others. I am not here to give ALL the possible examples, but to prove a point. And you can do that well enough with a generic example... for those who are willing to listen
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Quote:
prankster said: Like for example feeling sad (which would be a more subtle reaction, but healthy in my opinion)?
No, feeling sad without having other negative reactions as I earlier mentioned is not attachment, at least not in my opinion. I am sorry, I guess we will just have to agree or disagree on this one, as I already made my statement and proved my point, and apparently (if you don't wanna add anything, so did you). But first I need a clarification from you: what do you see in simply feeling sad but perfectly going on with your life, as being attachment?
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prankster
the twin
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Not even sure if we disagree that much. I see your point. This is what words do maybe.
I just think there is a reason for that sadness. And I'm not sure attachment is such a negative word in my vocabulary. If it was impossible to go on with life after losing someone I loved (ie a family member), then that would be unhealthy and highly neurotic reaction to that attachment being broken. But I would still carry the memories. That means I would keep them attached to my heart the rest of my life. And those memories would be part of me.
I looked up the word on webster's, just to clarify what it means:
Attachment Noun
1. A feeling of affection for a person or an institution.
2. A supplementary part or accessory.
3. A writ authorizing the seizure of property that may be needed for the payment of a judgment in a judicial proceeding.
4. A connection that fastens things together.
5. Faithful support for a religion or cause or political party.
6. The act of attaching something.
7. The act of fastening things together.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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And I am talking about attachment from a psychological point of view 
Quote:
Attachment disorder is a broad term intended to describe disorders of mood, behavior, and social relationships arising from a failure to form normal attachments to primary care giving figures in early childhood, resulting in problematic social expectations and behaviors. Such a failure would result from unusual early experiences of neglect, abuse, abrupt separation from caregivers after about age 6 months but before about age 3 years, frequent change of caregivers or excessive numbers of caregivers, or lack of caregiver responsiveness to child communicative efforts. A problematic history of social relationships occurring after about age 3 may be distressing to a child, but does not result in attachment disorder.
The term attachment disorder is most often used to describe emotional and behavioral problems of young children, but is sometimes applied to school-age children or even to adults. The specific difficulties implied depend on the age of the individual being assessed and a child's attachment-related behaviors may be very different with one familiar adult than with another, suggesting that the disorder is within the relationship and interactions of the two people rather than an aspect of one or the other personality. [1] No list of symptoms can legitimately be presented but generally the term attachment disorder refers to the absence or distortion of age-appropriate social behaviors with adults. For example, in a toddler, attachment-disordered behavior could include a failure to stay near familiar adults in a strange environment or to be comforted by contact with a familiar person, whereas in a six-year-old attachment-disordered behavior might involve excessive friendliness and inappropriate approaches to strangers.
More info in that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_disorder Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_therapy http://www.helpguide.org/mental/parenting_bonding_reactive_attachment_disorder.htm
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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prankster
the twin
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But that is attachment disorder. And as the quote says, arising from a failure to form normal attachments.
See the difference?
Oh well, I need to go to bed anyway. It is 0726 AM. Trolls must sleep when the sun comes up.
Edited by prankster (01/31/08 06:27 AM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Read also what follows. It's about the relationship between children and caregivers. All the relations that we form in early childhood have a form of attachment, due to the vulnerability, lack of any form of experience and need for protection. IF the attachment from that period is normal, then as grow ups we become free of it, we evolve, we grow, we reach mental maturity.
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psyka
Praetorian


Registered: 06/09/03
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I believe this is why the Buddha said talking about nibbana is fruitless.
Nothing but a wall of opinions.
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.

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prankster
the twin
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Dammit, you sucked me back in. I read what followed in the first link you posted and this is what I saw:
Thirdly, some authors have suggested that attachment, as an aspect of emotional development, is better assessed along a spectrum than considered to fall into two non-overlapping categories. This spectrum would have at one end the characteristics called secure attachment; midway along the range of disturbance would be insecure or other undesirable attachment styles; at the other extreme would be non-attachment.
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In Bowlby's approach, the human infant has a need for a secure relationship with adult caregivers, without which normal social and emotional development will not occur. However, different relationship experiences can lead to different developmental outcomes. A number of attachment styles in infants with distinct characteristics have been identified known as secure attachment, avoidant attachment, anxious attachment and disorganized attachment. These can be measured in both infants and adults. In addition to care-seeking by children, attachment behaviours include peer relationships of all ages, romantic and sexual attraction, and responses to the care needs of infants or sick or elderly adults.
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Hazan and Shaver extended attachment theory to adult romantic relationships in 1987. It was originally characterized by three dimensions: secure, anxious/ambivalent and avoidant. Later research showed that attachment is best thought of as two different dimensions: anxiety and avoidance. These dimensions are often drawn as an X and Y axis. In this model secure individuals are low in both anxiety and avoidance. Thus, attachment can also be broken down into four categories: secure, anxious-ambivalent (preoccupied), avoidant (dismissive), and fearful-avoidant. However, people's attachment varies continuously so most researchers do not currently think in terms of categories.
So maybe... At least now I remember why I stopped debating. Heh.
Edited by prankster (01/31/08 07:12 AM)
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: psyka]
#7959534 - 01/31/08 09:26 AM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
psyka said: I believe this is why the Buddha said talking about nibbana is fruitless.
Nothing but a wall of opinions.
But if we want to attain or realise nirvana we need to follow what the buddha taught about it and what he said is you reach it through non attachment and it is the highest happyness which to me implies pure love.
And non attachment and unconditional love go hand in hand. so unconditional love isnt nirvana but it is on the right path....
Last night after all this debating i smoked a spliff, watched chronos for the 1st time (great film!) then switched out the lights and just breathed and breathed, i got into such an ecstatic state until i went to sleep, it was awesome as earlier in the day i was feeling quite depressed.
I hadnt slept that well for ages!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Chronic7]
#7959541 - 01/31/08 09:29 AM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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Last night after all this debating i smoked a spliff, watched chronos for the 1st time (great film!) then switched out the lights and just breathed and breathed, i got into such an ecstatic state until i went to sleep, it was awesome as earlier in the day i was feeling quite depressed.
I hadnt slept that well for ages!
And this is how it goes.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
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Re: Nirvana... [Re: Chronic7]
#7959961 - 01/31/08 12:06 PM (16 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
chronic777 said: But if we want to attain or realise nirvana we need to follow what the buddha taught about it
Buddha probably would've advised only to follow oneself and use other's teachings merely as a tool in understanding and realizing the mind.
There is a book about a person who started meditating at 7 or so years old (spent his whole life in almost complete silence), and at 20 went through a year long process of ego dissolusion/loss/death/transcendence. The explanation of his experience was similar to that of what happens during ego death on acid or mushrooms, except naturally induced and extended over a year. This was the outcome -
"I went to sleep near about eight. It was not like sleep. Now I can understand what Patanjali means when he says that sleep and samadhi are similar. Only with one difference -- that in samadhi you are fully awake and asleep also. Asleep and awake together, the whole body relaxed, every cell of the body totally relaxed, all functioning relaxed, and yet a light of awareness burns within you... clear, smokeless. You remain alert and yet relaxed, loose but fully awake. The body is in the deepest sleep possible and your consciousness is at its peak. The peak of consciousness and the valley of the body meet.
I went to sleep. It was a very strange sleep. The body was asleep, I was awake. It was so strange -- as if one was torn apart into two directions, two dimensions; as if the polarity has become completely focused, as if I was both the polarities together... the positive and negative were meeting, sleep and awareness were meeting, death and life were meeting. That is the moment when you can say 'the creator and the creation meet.'
It was weird. For the first time it shocks you to the very roots, it shakes your foundations. You can never be the same after that experience; it brings a new vision to your life, a new quality.
Near about twelve my eyes suddenly opened -- I had not opened them. The sleep was broken by something else. I felt a great presence around me in the room. It was a very small room. I felt a throbbing life all around me, a great vibration -- almost like a hurricane, a great storm of light, joy, ecstasy. I was drowning in it.
It was so tremendously real that everything became unreal. The walls of the room became unreal, the house became unreal, my own body became unreal. Everything was unreal because now there was for the first time reality.
That's why when Buddha and Shankara say the world is maya, a mirage, it is difficult for us to understand. Because we know only this world, we don't have any comparison. This is the only reality we know. What are these people talking about -- this is maya, illusion? This is the only reality. Unless you come to know the really real, their words cannot be understood, their words remain theoretical. They look like hypotheses. Maybe this man is propounding a philosophy -- 'The world is unreal'.
When Berkley in the West said that the world is unreal, he was walking with one of his friends, a very logical man; the friend was almost a skeptic. He took a stone from the road and hit Berkley's feet hard. Berkley screamed, blood rushed out, and the skeptic said, 'Now, the world is unreal? You say the world is unreal? -- then why did you scream? This stone is unreal? -- then why did you scream? Then why are you holding your leg and why are you showing so much pain and anguish on your face. Stop this? It is all unreal.
Now this type of man cannot understand what Buddha means when he says the world is a mirage. He does not mean that you can pass through the wall. He is not saying this -- that you can eat stones and it will make no difference whether you eat bread or stones. He is not saying that.
He is saying that there is a reality. Once you come to know it, this so-called reality simply pales out, simply becomes unreal. With a higher reality in vision the comparison arises, not otherwise.
In the dream; the dream is real. You dream every night. Dream is one of the greatest activities that you go on doing. If you live sixty years, twenty years you will sleep and almost ten years you will dream. Ten years in a life -- nothing else do you do so much. Ten years of continuous dreaming -- just think about it. And every night.... And every morning you say it was unreal, and again in the night when you dream, dream becomes real.
In a dream it is so difficult to remember that this is a dream. But in the morning it is so easy. What happens? You are the same person. In the dream there is only one reality. How to compare? How to say it is unreal? Compared to what? It is the only reality. Everything is as unreal as everything else so there is no comparison. In the morning when you open your eyes another reality is there. Now you can say it was all unreal. Compared to this reality, dream becomes unreal.
There is an awakening -- compared to THAT reality of THAT awakening, this whole reality becomes unreal.
That night for the first time I understood the meaning of the word maya. Not that I had not known the word before, not that I was not aware of the meaning of the word. As you are aware, I was also aware of the meaning -- but I had never understood it before. How can you understand without experience?
That night another reality opened its door, another dimension became available. Suddenly it was there, the other reality, the separate reality, the really real, or whatsoever you want to call it -- call it god, call it truth, call it dhamma, call it tao, or whatsoever you will. It was nameless. But it was there -- so opaque, so transparent, and yet so solid one could have touched it. It was almost suffocating me in that room. It was too much and I was not yet capable of absorbing it.
A deep urge arose in me to rush out of the room, to go under the sky -- it was suffocating me. It was too much! It will kill me! If I had remained a few moments more, it would have suffocated me -- it looked like that.
I rushed out of the room, came out in the street. A great urge was there just to be under the sky with the stars, with the trees, with the earth... to be with nature. And immediately as I came out, the feeling of being suffocated disappeared. It was too small a place for such a big phenomenon. Even the sky is a small place for that big phenomenon. It is bigger than the sky. Even the sky is not the limit for it. But then I felt more at ease.
I walked towards the nearest garden. It was a totally new walk, as if gravitation had disappeared. I was walking, or I was running, or I was simply flying; it was difficult to decide. There was no gravitation, I was feeling weightless -- as if some energy was taking me. I was in the hands of some other energy.
For the first time I was not alone, for the first time I was no more an individual, for the first time the drop has come and fallen into the ocean. Now the whole ocean was mine, I was the ocean. There was no limitation. A tremendous power arose as if I could do anything whatsoever. I was not there, only the power was there.
I reached to the garden where I used to go every day. The garden was closed, closed for the night. It was too late, it was almost one o'clock in the night. The gardeners were fast asleep. I had to enter the garden like a thief, I had to climb the gate. But something was pulling me towards the garden. It was not within my capacity to prevent myself. I was just floating.
That's what I mean when I say again and again 'float with the river, don't push the river'. I was relaxed, I was in a let-go. I was not there. IT was there, call it god -- god was there.
I would like to call it IT, because god is too human a word, and has become too dirty by too much use, has become too polluted by so many people. Christians, Hindus, Mohammedans, priests and politicians -- they all have corrupted the beauty of the word. So let me call it IT. IT was there and I was just carried away... carried by a tidal wave.
The moment I entered the garden everything became luminous, it was all over the place -- the benediction, the blessedness. I could see the trees for the first time -- their green, their life, their very sap running. The whole garden was asleep, the trees were asleep. But I could see the whole garden alive, even the small grass leaves were so beautiful.
I looked around. One tree was tremendously luminous -- the maulshree tree. It attracted me, it pulled me towards itself. I had not chosen it, god himself has chosen it. I went to the tree, I sat under the tree. As I sat there things started settling. The whole universe became a benediction.
It is difficult to say how long I was in that state. When I went back home it was four o'clock in the morning, so I must have been there by clock time at least three hours -- but it was infinity. It had nothing to do with clock time. It was timeless.
Those three hours became the whole eternity, endless eternity. There was no time, there was no passage of time; it was the virgin reality -- uncorrupted, untouchable, unmeasurable.
And that day something happened that has continued -- not as a continuity -- but it has still continued as an undercurrent. Not as a permanency -- each moment it has been happening again and again. It has been a miracle each moment.
That night... and since that night I have never been in the body. I am hovering around it. I became tremendously powerful and at the same time very fragile. I became very strong, but that strength is not the strength of a Mohammed Ali. That strength is not the strength of a rock, that strength is the strength of a rose flower -- so fragile in his strength... so fragile, so sensitive, so delicate."
"But I have never been in the body again, I am just hovering around the body. And that's why I say it has been a tremendous miracle. Each moment I am surprised I am still here, I should not be. I should have left any moment, still I am here. Every morning I open my eyes and I say, 'So, again I am still here?' Because it seems almost impossible. The miracle has been a continuity."
I guess my closest experience with nirvana was on acid+pot alone when I was sucked into a giant rotating mandala vortex. I spun into the center and came out expanded, I was hovering around my body yet could still utilize my body at the same time. I could see my body from above from multiple points/angles, yet I could see from my physical eyes as well. I had no memory of my past, even my name. My thought process was nowhere to be found. After that it made a little more sense to me what those satgurus were after...
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