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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Black Metal and Nietzschean paganism
    #7932301 - 01/25/08 11:31 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

http://www.vbs.tv/player.php?bctid=769427891&bccl=MTMzODkzNTM5M19fTVVTSUM=

This is a documentary about Norwegian Black Metal band Gorgoroth. The whole fear and violence thing is pretty shocking, especially considering how it's portrayed in the media... and the dude's habit of torturing people who attack him as punishment is kind of sketchy... but there are some really interesting ideas behind it. It's easy to write the guy Gaahl off as a total nutcase, but he has some powerful insight that is hard to argue with. He's influenced pretty heavily by Nietzsche and by traditional Euro paganism, and I must say there are some significant places where my views align with his. Subtract the whole punishment element from the equation and I'm there.


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Invisibleappleorange
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Re: Black Metal and Nietzschean paganism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7932514 - 01/26/08 12:24 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

i'll have to watch this. i use to be pretty heavy into the black metal scene and actually interviewed gaahl a few years ago.

on a side note, gaahl is actually a pedophile. he had a run in with norwegian police when he convinced his manager to lure a fans child back to his hotel room.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Black Metal and Nietzschean paganism [Re: appleorange]
    #7932679 - 01/26/08 01:06 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Wow. That's too bad. I'm not gonna deny the guy is pretty intense and into some pretty sketchy things, but he definitly has some interesting and appealing ideas too.

He talked a lot about how Christians are silly sheep who are afraid of daddy up in the sky, but that the only true 'god' was to be found within, and in nature-- in the world. He struck me as a sort of isolated, introverted mystic who definitly was crazy in some ways but also had a corner on something most people are too afraid to discover. Sometimes psychologically damaged people go to places in thier consciousness that regular people are too afraid to face, and find in the abyss some profound insights.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Black Metal and Nietzschean paganism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7933859 - 01/26/08 09:31 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think all paganism has to be about satanism.
For me, satanism abusively has captured large parts of paganism, but if one adds the quint essence of 'transcendence' to it, one doesn't end in satanism.
Satanism just proposes a dead end, where the journey just is going to become interesting.
Else, of course I agree on the pagan stance on 'g*d' :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Black Metal and Nietzschean paganism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7933869 - 01/26/08 09:47 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Someone should tell these guys that Satan is A PART OF Christianity and is a corruption of Paganism.

If they really want to get rid of Xtianity, they should worship Pan, Baphomet, or Set...


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Black Metal and Nietzschean paganism [Re: Middleman]
    #7934305 - 01/26/08 12:41 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, Satan is definitly a Christian character, but I can sympathize with the satanist view... that Satan is really a free thinking individual and God is a tyrant who coerces his flocks into submission. That we should follow our own paths independantly instead of following a manipulative dictator. Yes, satanism is a sect of Christianity, but can you really blame someone who grew up in a super Christian family for finding it appealing? It takes Christian stories and symbolism and subverts them, opening up liberatory space.

You're totally right Middleman, if they really do want to get rid of Christianity, as they often claim, they should reject satanism as well and find thier symbols somewhere else. But it seems subversion is a primary and important step in the deconstruction and eventual rejection of an ideology...

Blue, I don't think paganism has to be about Satanism either. It's just one expression that's found in the Norwegian Black Metal scene. I'm not asking anyone to be excited about Satanism, I was just hoping someone would watch the documentary (it's only about half an hour, in 5 short parts) so that we could discuss the views that come up and the character that holds them.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Black Metal and Nietzschean paganism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7934311 - 01/26/08 12:42 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

btw- you've gotta watch all of it to get to the interesting part that I'm refering to. If you just watch the first clip you'll just get the bit about thier crazy shows, costumes and criminal convictions.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Black Metal and Nietzschean paganism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7935179 - 01/26/08 03:40 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Gaahl's Norse pagan belief system seems even more irrational and laughable than Christianity. I think his anti-Christian stance has more to do with rationalizing his own immoral behavior than anything else.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Black Metal and Nietzschean paganism [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7935319 - 01/26/08 04:10 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe. I'm not saying he's a 'good person' or that all of his ideas are good. What I found appealing was the 'god is in all of us, in everything-- not in the sky.' He also has a definite Nietzschean element to his philosophy. Is it anymore laughable a perspective than the space-case hippy ideology that dropping E and dancing all night to cheap, computer generated auditory manipulation is 'spiritual'? There are many paths. Has anyone watched the doc?


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Invisibleappleorange
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Re: Black Metal and Nietzschean paganism [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7935869 - 01/26/08 05:51 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I watched the documentary! Boy, isn't Norway beautiful? Norway and Iceland are two countries I've always considered moving to.

Didn't you notice how Gaahl never really explained his views, just spoke vaguely of what they were? I think at one point when they were climbing the mountain, he said something to the extent of "If I need to explain myself, then people aren't worthy of knowing" or something to that extent. I personally think the man is all bark and no bite, just puts on airs and alludes to things he has little comprehension of.

In regards to that god in all us stuff. I've only read one Nietzsche book and the impression I got from it is that he believed that reality held no inherent value whatsoever, and that man applied his own meaning and value to life. He thought that man needed to create a set of values that would allow him to evolve to the "superman". I personally believe that everything is god (one thing). We tend to think of things as being seperate, when in actuallity, all of existence is just one functioning whole or god.

I can't say too much about paganism, the fatties at those comic book shops kinda scared me away from that religion.


Edited by appleorange (01/26/08 09:46 PM)


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Black Metal and Nietzschean paganism [Re: appleorange]
    #7936552 - 01/26/08 08:26 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Norway is indeed beautiful. I would love to spend some time in a mountain cabin similar to the one Gaahl lives in. The place he took them to was incredible, and it annoyed the shit out of me when that hipster reporter got all whiny about it. Dude was out of shape and should have worn a pair of boots.

He didn't really seem to explain his views, but at the same time, they spent hours with him and edited it down to a few minutes. Vice also has a particular crowd they play to, so I wouldn't be suprised if they cut a lot of interesting stuff and just used the one liners and the shock value stuff they could squeeze in there. It's hard to get a full picture of what Gaahl believes from the doc, but it gave some interesting hints.

As for the fat comic shop pagans, I know what you mean! :lol: I got turned off by the spaced out, boundary crossing, uncritical hippies I encountered when I was exploring it initially. Actually, some of the only people I've ever met that are into paganism in a way that isn't flaky or annoying is people who are also into black metal. They don't literally 'believe' in pagan gods or anything like that. They're more like left path atheists who enjoy nature and are critical of modernity.


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