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OfflineCleft_Asunder
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Registered: 06/10/05
Posts: 71
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
I just read Psilocybin Handbook, but...
    #7934836 - 01/26/08 12:38 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

...I get the impression that a pressure cooker is needed for anything BUT improved PF tek. Given that I have already succeeded in this tek, and found that it didn't produce as many mushrooms as I like because of the lack of nutrients in the brown rice flower, I would like to move to a grain method. I have some questions:

1. What is the accurate nomenclature for substrate that is placed in a tub as opposed to jars? It seems people mistakenly call this a casing, but a casing is only the top layers of vermiculite or peat moss.

2. How do you pasteurize a grain or manure substrate which has been placed in a tub, without using a pressure cooker? What's wrong with boiling grain substrate in 1 quart jars, and then transferring them to a tub for inoculation?

3. I've heard that an oven is used for pasteurization. Is this a good alternative to a pressure cooker? It would seem that grain would be dried out by this method. The grain must remain soft enough to break with your fingers, but if placed in the oven, the water content would evaporate, perhaps leaving the grain hard again(?). Water is crucial for mycellium growth, therefore, how would you add water back to the grain?

4. I read in the above mentioned book that brown rice flour makes the mushrooms considerably more potent than rye berries: "Up to 1% alkaloid content by dry weight." Why would you use rye berries then?

5. This book also mentions pasteurized horse manure as a casing. I thought manure was supposed to be a substrate, NOT a casing? And even if you can use it as a casing, why over-complicate things? In other words, what's wrong with vermiculite or peat moss? *shrug*

I'm confused by the whole thing.


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Invisibletahoe
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Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 6,274
Loc: N38.93829W119.98108
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Re: I just read Psilocybin Handbook, but... [Re: Cleft_Asunder]
    #7934873 - 01/26/08 12:44 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

if you do not have a pressure cooker then you are not serious about mycology. Get a pc, buy a big one. like an all american 921. There are no ifs and or buts about it.


--------------------
Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you.


My Legacy
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22140987#22140987

Teh=The
I need to proofread


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Invisibleshaggydogman
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Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 672
Re: I just read Psilocybin Handbook, but... [Re: Cleft_Asunder]
    #7934915 - 01/26/08 12:52 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

The Biological efficiency of BRF is very good.

2, 3 You want to sterilise your Rye with a PC, there are many teka on this site, the search is your friend.

When was that book published??? 1921? Sounds like it has out of date info...


--------------------
Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy
Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.


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Invisiblethedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
Re: I just read Psilocybin Handbook, but... [Re: Cleft_Asunder]
    #7934934 - 01/26/08 12:56 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

it didn't produce as many mushrooms as I like because of the lack of nutrients in the brown rice flower



BRF is plenty nutritious. That's not the problem.

1. Substrate in tubs is cased substrate, or cases works too.

2. Pasteurization does not involve a pressure cooker. That is sterilization. Pasteurization is achieved by heating the materiel to 140-170 degrees Fahrenheit for around 2 hours, I believe. Read this for rye sterilization procedures: Rye Bitches, Rye!!!

3. Oven pasteurization is a bitch. But you're talking about sterilization. You're all jacked up. Learn the difference between pasteurization and sterilization. Read the Rye thread I posted.

4. Rye works just fine. Don't worry about what that book said. You'll be okay. Not to mention that rye is real easy to prep for how much sub you get, and mycelium colonizes it faster than it does BRF.

5. Hpoo is a sub, not a casing. By the way, it's vermiculite AND peat moss.

Quote:

I'm confused by the whole thing.



Yes, you are. Read Magash's rye thread up there, buy a pressure cooker, and be happy. If you want to get even remotely serious about growing mushrooms, you need one. Also, if you want to, you can grow BRF jars and spawn them to a bulk substrate without ever needing a pressure cooker. Good Luck!!


--------------------


I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.


Edited by thedefone (01/26/08 01:00 PM)


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OfflineCleft_Asunder
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Registered: 06/10/05
Posts: 71
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: I just read Psilocybin Handbook, but... [Re: shaggydogman]
    #7934961 - 01/26/08 01:01 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

shaggydogman said:
The Biological efficiency of BRF is very good.

2, 3 You want to sterilise your Rye with a PC, there are many teka on this site, the search is your friend.

When was that book published??? 1921? Sounds like it has out of date info...




Haha, 1921. ^_^ Try 2006: http://www.amazon.com/Psilocybin-Mushroom-Handbook-Outdoor-Cultivation/dp/0932551718/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201377565&sr=1-1


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Invisibleshaggydogman
Stranger


Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 672
Re: I just read Psilocybin Handbook, but... [Re: Cleft_Asunder]
    #7935023 - 01/26/08 01:12 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Well what do you know!!
Are you sure you read the book right???

There is a review on amazon that says it's not detailed enough and then goes on to say just search youtube for pf tek. There are 4 videos......lol :smile:

RR are you spamming on amazon???? :p


--------------------
Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy
Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.


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OfflineCleft_Asunder
Stranger
Registered: 06/10/05
Posts: 71
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: I just read Psilocybin Handbook, but... [Re: thedefone]
    #7935038 - 01/26/08 01:14 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

thedefone said:
Quote:

it didn't produce as many mushrooms as I like because of the lack of nutrients in the brown rice flower



BRF is plenty nutritious. That's not the problem.

1. Substrate in tubs is cased substrate, or cases works too.

2. Pasteurization does not involve a pressure cooker. That is sterilization. Pasteurization is achieved by heating the materiel to 140-170 degrees Fahrenheit for around 2 hours, I believe. Read this for rye sterilization procedures: Rye Bitches, Rye!!!

3. Oven pasteurization is a bitch. But you're talking about sterilization. You're all jacked up. Learn the difference between pasteurization and sterilization. Read the Rye thread I posted.

4. Rye works just fine. Don't worry about what that book said. You'll be okay. Not to mention that rye is real easy to prep for how much sub you get, and mycelium colonizes it faster than it does BRF.

5. Hpoo is a sub, not a casing. By the way, it's vermiculite AND peat moss.

Quote:

I'm confused by the whole thing.



Yes, you are. Read Magash's rye thread up there, buy a pressure cooker, and be happy. If you want to get even remotely serious about growing mushrooms, you need one. Also, if you want to, you can grow BRF jars and spawn them to a bulk substrate without ever needing a pressure cooker. Good Luck!!




Okay, that was very helpful. Thanks for addressing it one at a time!

Regarding the jar-to-case transfer, are you refering to this method? http://www.shroomery.org/50/Casing-101

Well, I still don't know how to sterilize substrate without a pressure cooker, unless we're talking about sterilizing in jars using the boiling method.


Edited by Cleft_Asunder (01/26/08 01:25 PM)


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OfflineCleft_Asunder
Stranger
Registered: 06/10/05
Posts: 71
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: I just read Psilocybin Handbook, but... [Re: shaggydogman]
    #7935066 - 01/26/08 01:19 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

shaggydogman said:
Well what do you know!!
Are you sure you read the book right???

There is a review on amazon that says it's not detailed enough and then goes on to say just search youtube for pf tek. There are 4 videos......lol :smile:

RR are you spamming on amazon???? :p




Actually, the books is quite thorough and well written, and I did read it right. The problem with it is that it splits things up, rather than offering combinations of techniques. For example, improved PF tek is left by itself, rather than suggesting how to transfer the cakes to a casing. Also, there is a big chapter on casing, and it refers to casing as the top layer of peat moss and vermiculite, but fails to mention that a casing and a casing LAYER are two separate things.

It's still a very well written manual.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Registered: 03/26/03
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Last seen: 11 months, 3 days
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Re: I just read Psilocybin Handbook, but... [Re: Cleft_Asunder]
    #7935720 - 01/26/08 03:23 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

There is a review on amazon that says it's not detailed enough and then goes on to say just search youtube for pf tek. There are 4 videos......lol

RR are you spamming on amazon???? :p





Nope. I would never write a bad review of a competing product. Besides, amazon can't seem to keep my dvd in stock anyway. It sells out within days of their receiving a fresh carton. They received another shipment Friday, so they should update it to show in stock by Monday or Tuesday.

BRF will deliver the most product for the size substrate, bar none. It's not my choice to grow with, but nobody can deny that pf cakes, which only have a few tablespoons of brf in each jar, produce more mushrooms than any other substrate used at the same amount.

Grains require a pressure cooker. If no pressure cooker, use brf cakes. Flowers grow on plants. Flour is ground grain.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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Invisibleshaggydogman
Stranger


Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 672
Re: I just read Psilocybin Handbook, but... [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7938632 - 01/27/08 12:32 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Nope.  I would never write a bad review of a competing product. 



I was only joking with ya, and giving you a heads up to what I saw.

Glad to hear the DVD is selling so well :smile:


--------------------
Rye -- WBS | Grain LC -- G2G | Bulk -- Monotub | 50/50 -- Late Casing -- A Pinning Strategy
Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.


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OfflineNibin
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Re: I just read Psilocybin Handbook, but... [Re: Cleft_Asunder]
    #7939162 - 01/27/08 05:52 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Cleft_Asunder said:


Actually, the books is quite thorough and well written, and I did read it right. The problem with it is that it splits things up, rather than offering combinations of techniques. For example, improved PF tek is left by itself, rather than suggesting how to transfer the cakes to a casing. Also, there is a big chapter on casing, and it refers to casing as the top layer of peat moss and vermiculite, but fails to mention that a casing and a casing LAYER are two separate things.

It's still a very well written manual.




Well, it isn't actually like that. Technically, the correct terms are

Casing or casing layer for the top, non nutritious etc layer

Substrate for the nutritious material the mycelium feeds off.

The combination is a Cased Substrate. Thing is it is long to type so a lot of people just type casing, expecting everyone to know what they are talking about.


--------------------
Newcomers guide-----> For all things shroomy


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Invisiblethedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
Re: I just read Psilocybin Handbook, but... [Re: Nibin]
    #7942635 - 01/27/08 08:54 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Well, I still don't know how to sterilize substrate without a pressure cooker, unless we're talking about sterilizing in jars using the boiling method.



Like I said, just go buy one. They are like $40 bucks at Wal-Mart, and you won't regret it. If you absolutely don't want to get one, you can boil water and sterilize BRF jars, but not grains. I don't know the specifics, though.

Quote:

Regarding the jar-to-case transfer, are you refering to this method? http://www.shroomery.org/50/Casing-101



No. I was refering to something more along these lines. Many people, Nibin included, will advise you to not crumble your cakes and case them. I never had any trouble with that method, but it does increase your risk of contamination... especially if you are new.


--------------------


I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.


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OfflineCrazyEarl
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Registered: 10/01/07
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Re: I just read Psilocybin Handbook, but... [Re: Cleft_Asunder]
    #7942884 - 01/27/08 09:38 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Cleft_Asunder said: I get the impression that a pressure cooker is needed for anything BUT improved PF tek. Given that I have already succeeded in this tek, and found that it didn't produce as many mushrooms as I like because of the lack of nutrients in the brown rice flower, I would like to move to a grain method. I have some questions:

the amount of nutrients in brf supports multiple flushes on pf tek cakes when conditions are optimal. pf tek cakes can be used as a substitute for grain when spawning to bulk.

1. What is the accurate nomenclature for substrate that is placed in a tub as opposed to jars? It seems people mistakenly call this a casing, but a casing is only the top layers of vermiculite or peat moss.

i don't know. i call it a "mycelial mat" if its fully colonized substrate and ready for casing. "running" when its colonizing. "spawned substrate" when its freshly spawned substrate. for my own notes.

2. How do you pasteurize a grain or manure substrate which has been placed in a tub, without using a pressure cooker? What's wrong with boiling grain substrate in 1 quart jars, and then transferring them to a tub for inoculation?

a bath tub? a tote style tub? you don't pasteurize in a pc you sterilize. endospores are whats wrong with boiling grain and transferring and innoculating.

3. I've heard that an oven is used for pasteurization. Is this a good alternative to a pressure cooker? It would seem that grain would be dried out by this method. The grain must remain soft enough to break with your fingers, but if placed in the oven, the water content would evaporate, perhaps leaving the grain hard again(?). Water is crucial for mycellium growth, therefore, how would you add water back to the grain?

you are totally confused. you don't pasteurize grain you sterilize it in a pc. pcs aren't for pasteurization they are for sterilization. using an oven to pasteurize grain will get you some nasty molds for sure.

4. I read in the above mentioned book that brown rice flour makes the mushrooms considerably more potent than rye berries: "Up to 1% alkaloid content by dry weight." Why would you use rye berries then?


because sterilizing quart jars of rye berries in a pc (to many) is easier.



5. This book also mentions pasteurized horse manure as a casing. I thought manure was supposed to be a substrate, NOT a casing? And even if you can use it as a casing, why over-complicate things? In other words, what's wrong with vermiculite or peat moss? *shrug*

maybe it was referring to the hpoo sub as a casing because the casing layer was applied at the time the sub was spawned instead of waiting for the hpoo sub to finish colonizing, before casing.

I'm confused by the whole thing.




you don't always have to look for definitive answers when you are yourself experimenting.
me? well i don't bother, im not writing a book so im not so concerned with my terms all being correct..im not being graded. i just satisfy my own curiosities.


--------------------


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: I just read Psilocybin Handbook, but... [Re: Cleft_Asunder]
    #7942968 - 01/27/08 09:50 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Cleft_Asunder said:
4. I read in the above mentioned book that brown rice flour makes the mushrooms considerably more potent than rye berries: "Up to 1% alkaloid content by dry weight." Why would you use rye berries then?

5. This book also mentions pasteurized horse manure as a casing. I thought manure was supposed to be a substrate, NOT a casing? And even if you can use it as a casing, why over-complicate things? In other words, what's wrong with vermiculite or peat moss? *shrug*

I'm confused by the whole thing.




Hopefully, you just read it wrong. I've never read the book, but if it says that brf produces more potent mushrooms than grains, it's full of shit. Potency is genetic.

Again, I hope you just read it wrong, because horse manure is a substrate, never a casing. It would be hard to imagine someone publishing a book without submitting it for peer review prior to printing.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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