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OfflineFugai
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Re: What exactly is TIME? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7948312 - 01/28/08 10:57 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Phantomcat -
Singularity theory is the study of the failure of manifold structure.

What you all are referring to is gravitational singularity sometimes called space-time singularity. This theory refers to "a place where quantities become infinite" "Such quantities include the curvature of space-time or the density of matter".
According to general relativity such a singularity was the initial state of the universe. Not to be confused with another type of singularity predicted by general relativity which can be found inside a black hole. Both are what is refereed to as a curvature singularity.
The extent of which "a space-time with a singularity contains geodesics which cannot be completed in a smooth manner. The limit of such a geodesic is the singularity."
Also, I'm not going to expound them, but there are conical and naked singularities as well.
The confusion is understandable, general relativity is an intimidating theory, and most knowledge of it as passed person to person is second hand at best.
What should be understood, as it is directly applicable to this discussion, and the confusion over space-time, is that it is space-time. Not space, not time. Space-time. The two are inter-determinable. Because as I would argue, and as I assumed it was readily understood, the "space" between events/things/singularities is the "time" between them. They are speaking of the exact same idea/relation.
Or as my friend DimensionX was getting at when he was discussing the "gaps". Or at least I presume thats what he meant. :wink:
But really though, the whole color tangent has nothing to do with the original question and distracts from it.


--------------------
Principles of acceptance
* People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves.

* When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.


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OfflineTangerines
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Re: What exactly is TIME? [Re: Diploid]
    #7948320 - 01/28/08 10:58 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

I did not read the entire thread, but isn't time the simply the '4th dimension'? Or not so simply.

Gravity affects time right?


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OfflineFugai
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Re: What exactly is TIME? [Re: Tangerines]
    #7948400 - 01/28/08 11:13 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Tangerines -
Yes space-time is 4 dimensional according to relativity theory.
The 3 positional parameters and Time constitute the 4 dimensions.
And yes Gravity does affect Time.


--------------------
Principles of acceptance
* People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves.

* When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.


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OfflineTangerines
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Re: What exactly is TIME? [Re: Fugai]
    #7948426 - 01/28/08 11:19 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

problem with relativity and quantum mechanics is the grey area in between when neither/ both apply.


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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: What exactly is TIME? [Re: Fugai]
    #7948447 - 01/28/08 11:22 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Sorry for the miss pronunciation fugai you seem very knowledgeable about physics. A point you brought up earlier about how the observer effects what is observed is interesting especially, in this case, how it relates to a humans perception of time. One example would be comparing human intelligence to a computers intelligence. The way a human would perceive two people talking and how a computer would perceive it are two different things. A computer may not even be able to tell that communication was occurring, it would receive completely different data and draw a completely different conclusion. So although both a human and a computer were viewing the same event when it was filtered through their intelligences two different realities would be seen. Both are valid and functional but when put next to each other they may seem contradictory or even completely foreign. I think the same thing happens when you view time and space within set, limited parameters compared to when it is view from an infinite perspective.


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OfflineFugai
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Re: What exactly is TIME? [Re: DimensionX]
    #7948651 - 01/29/08 12:01 AM (16 years, 4 days ago)

True Tangerines, all things are relative, even relativity. But that was not the focus of the discussion. I was merely expounding the theory to put aside any reference to it in as far as it has influenced this particular conversation. In-fact that was exactly my point. Relativity theory does not, can not and should not tell us anything about what Time is. Gloriously speculative philosophy is not reducable to any other study, it has its own significance!
DimensionX -
no worries my friend, only letting you know.
First there are a lot of important difference in the faculties of a person-as-perceiver and a computer-as-perceiver and their intelligences. In-fact I had this conversation a few days ago with a friend of mine doing his graduate work on AI. It is directly applicable. One complex issue can be easily understood by the fact that a computer CANNOT choose a random number, at least thats a simple way of expressing the problem. A computers "intelligence" is based entirely on parameters and directives. A computer CANNOT have preferences. A computer can make choices, but they will be based on simple concern parameters like benefit/harm. Therefor A computer cannot be said to be aware. Although A computer can learn, as a complex adaptive system, it is merely the function of intelligence not intelligence itself.
Those facts actually do a lot to further the understanding of what Time is though. Because A computer can measure changes in any system, but it is not Aware of the changes as they occur. Therefor Awareness is intrinsic to Time.
Which brings me back to my original summation. That Time is to be defined as the measurement of the awareness of change.


--------------------
Principles of acceptance
* People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves.

* When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.


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Invisibledeimya
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Re: What exactly is TIME? [Re: Fugai]
    #7949229 - 01/29/08 05:34 AM (16 years, 3 days ago)

You could at least cite your sources :wink:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: What exactly is TIME? [Re: deimya]
    #7949231 - 01/29/08 05:38 AM (16 years, 3 days ago)

:lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineFugai
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Re: What exactly is TIME? [Re: deimya]
    #7951798 - 01/29/08 06:21 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Deimya -
I wasn't quoting anyone in my answer my friend and ultimately my source is Logic alone. But if what your looking for is a list of publications as the source of my information which constitutes my knowledge of a particular subject, it would take a while to compile it. The compilation spans the last 15 years of my life, give or take, and includes every major publication from the fields of philosophy, psychology, physics, theology, sociology, cybernetics and systems theory, biology etcetera etcetera.
I try and keep up :wink:
Not to mention the wonderful people in various disciplines I converse with regularly.

The beginning of the 33rd quatrain of the Tao-te-ching is one of my favorite quotes, and would be of particular applicability here;
"Knowledge studies others, wisdom is self known"

But if it means that much to you, or anyone else. I would be glad to provide a short list of recommended reading. But as ever, if you or anyone else find a fallacy in anything I say, I of course invite debate. Even if you just disagree :grin:


--------------------
Principles of acceptance
* People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves.

* When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: What exactly is TIME? [Re: Fugai]
    #7951825 - 01/29/08 06:26 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

ha every major publication. I SERIOUSLY doubt that. Fuck


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OfflineFugai
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Re: What exactly is TIME? [Re: deimya]
    #7951875 - 01/29/08 06:34 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Deimya -
Ah now I see what you meant. I happened to scan over the word source :wink:
That post was a quite few before my latest, so I assumed that your statement was in response it my latest post in this thread.
Perhaps I should have linked the source that I quoted, it didn't seem that important. The post had it's desired affect. Singularity theory was mentioned and was becoming a locus of its own discussion. The theory was both mis-understood and mis-represented by those discussing it. That, and it has nothing to do with the thread. I quoted an easily accessible text for the same reason that you would request it sourced. Legitimacy. It had its desired affect. It did not continue to be discussed.


--------------------
Principles of acceptance
* People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves.

* When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.


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OfflineFugai
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Re: What exactly is TIME? [Re: TheCow]
    #7951987 - 01/29/08 06:50 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

thecow -
We all have our own interests. What do you spend your time on? Video games I would guess. But then that would be an assumption, similar to your assumption that I am not as prolific a reader as I happen to be. I won't defend myself, I don't need to impress you or anyone else, and that was not my intention by saying that.
This thread is not about me.
Why not try and rebut or disprove something I have said? Thus furthering the conversation. What do you care if I have or haven't? What bearing does that have on anything?
I was simply saying that I do not need to justify my views by others.
By the way though, every "major" publication in any one particular field of study is not as many as you would think. Most books are just about other books.


--------------------
Principles of acceptance
* People do not progress by being questioned, they progress by questioning themselves.

* When ready for the answer, people will come to the question of themselves.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: What exactly is TIME? [Re: Fugai]
    #7952075 - 01/29/08 07:10 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Oh I thought you meant research papers. Because following all developments in science by reading the major research papers is not possible. No matter how you want to spin it, if you didn't mean research papers though then whatever have your fun


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