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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Snake Venom Into Hybrids
    #7924741 - 01/24/08 03:29 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Does anyone know anything about this...would be quiet nice to do something of that sort...gonna go rattle snake hunting this summer and hopefully bringing back a bunch of snakes


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #7925309 - 01/24/08 05:30 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Search this forum for snake venom and hybridization.
RR


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OfflineFunkatron9000
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7925710 - 01/24/08 06:43 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

What on earth would that do!? You trying to kill someone?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: Funkatron9000]
    #7925732 - 01/24/08 06:48 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Yes, mycelium cell walls. It helps the nuclei to do whatever it is they do.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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OfflineFunkatron9000
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7925780 - 01/24/08 06:57 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Thats just to crazy! lol, How did someone figure that out ya know...
"Hmmm I think I'll toss some snake venom into this petri here and um... oh crap hybridized myc."

I'm sure there was much more thought in it.... but still.


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I thought Gene Wilder was cool BEFORE he was dead.


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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: Funkatron9000]
    #7927139 - 01/24/08 10:14 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

It breaks down the cell walls in order for them to form


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Invisibletahoe
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #7927535 - 01/24/08 11:25 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

uhhhh


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InvisibleJohn NadaDiscord
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: tahoe]
    #7928563 - 01/25/08 05:38 AM (16 years, 7 days ago)

For real???? Goddamn!


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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: John Nada]
    #7929101 - 01/25/08 09:56 AM (16 years, 7 days ago)

pshhh ..... yeah


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Offlinemr_minds_eye
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #7934024 - 01/26/08 08:52 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

I noticed in the original post that there was refrence to other things being used for this purpose. No one ever mentioned what they were. What are the other additives that could promote that?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: mr_minds_eye]
    #7934584 - 01/26/08 11:41 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

I first learned of rattlesnake venom from attending a medicinal mushroom conference in 2005. John Holliday did a presentation on it. Here's a link to a paper he wrote. John Holliday is director of research at alahomedicinals.com and there's lots more info on his website.
RR
http://www.nwbotanicals.org/nwb/lexicon/hybridcordyceps.htm


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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7934642 - 01/26/08 11:59 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

I got a friend who has a ranch and has SHITLOADS of rattles every year...it gets up in the 100s...Im gonna start going up there and milking it..but I dont know how to keep it viable I mean...will it lose its shit being in a air tight container? Can I keep it in the freezer?

Im thinking of doing it and sending it to mycologist for free...I love snakes and amphibians...im also trying to raise Bufo Alvarius Toads and try breeding in captivity without the injection of hormones


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #7935739 - 01/26/08 03:27 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

> breeding in captivity without the injection of hormones

Good luck with that. Keep us posted on that in ODD and C&P. I raised one for quite awhile.

I know someone with a bunch of poisonous snakes, so I wonder what kinds of venom would be useful?

I also wonder if the activity is due solely to weakening the cell walls. Chitinase would then work for this also. PEG helps for fusing protoplasts so maybe that would also be a useful additive.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: fastfred]
    #7935770 - 01/26/08 03:32 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

The venom is not heat stable, so it needs to be added just before pouring the agar, after it's cooled almost to the point of solidifying. For this reason, it must be completely sterile. Sigma Scientific sells purified snake venom, freeze dried into a powder. It has to be stored at -20C or less until use.

I'm not sure of their process, but I've never had it contaminate the agar. It's about three times the price of powder cocaine, so not for everyone who just wants to experiment.

Search this forum for the Redboy thread(s). I had some 20 year old redboy spores that simply would not germinate, no matter what I tried. After placing the non-viable spores on venomated agar for a couple of weeks, I released monokaryotic PR mycelium to crawl over the dish. Low and behold, when the monokaryotic mycelium reached the area where the spores were near the edge, two separate rhizomorphic strains emerged. Somehow the snake venom allowed the PR mycelium to access the nucleus of the spores for mating. I had tried this without the venom to no avail. The very first time venom was used, the result was dikaryotic mycelium, and the redboy strain was back as a 50/50 cross with PR. The experiment was repeated with the offspring, resulting in 75% Redboy(perhaps? I'm not a geneticist), which was then released to the community.
RR


Edited by RogerRabbit (01/26/08 03:42 PM)


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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7936055 - 01/26/08 04:26 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Can I get the name to that site?

Interesting story...is the venom expensive?

This process sucks now lol(milking and selling the venom)...I'd have to get a freeze drier because I know now freezer that I have goes below -20...I don't think


Edited by dumbfounded1600 (01/26/08 04:27 PM)


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InvisibleDontPlay
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #7939245 - 01/27/08 07:14 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Not to mention you shouldn't be running around picking up rattlesnakes and grabbing their head to milk them. Your not the crocodile hunter lol. Feel free to post after your hospital experience.


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InvisibleKnoa6
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: DontPlay]
    #7939316 - 01/27/08 08:22 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

this is very interesting!
RR, have you ever successfully hybridized two strains?


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: Knoa6]
    #7939429 - 01/27/08 09:22 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

he just said he did with pr and red boy


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: wikedferret]
    #7939456 - 01/27/08 09:33 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

oh and RR, on that note if you didnt use all of your red boy spores why dont you repeat it with your PR and RB hybrid and make it 75% RB and 25% PR and again until their are only trace amounts or PR to get that RB back? by the 5th try it would be at a 6.25% out of 100 chance that it would resemble a PR that leaves 93.75% RB


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: wikedferret]
    #7939626 - 01/27/08 10:31 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

oh and RR, on that note if you didnt use all of your red boy spores why dont you repeat it with your PR and RB hybrid and make it 75% RB and 25% PR




Isn't that exactly what I said I did in my last post? :shrug:

The 75% RB/PR cross used up the last of the original 20 year old spores.  It's all covered in the Redboy thread from four years ago.
RR


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Invisiblecricket
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #7981427 - 02/05/08 03:24 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

What kind of rattlers?
Let me know if you end up with any extras.
Snakes, not venom.


RogerRabit: Have you come across any info on effects from different spiecies or snakes?


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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: cricket]
    #7981949 - 02/05/08 09:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Eastern Diamondbacks...really any type of ratler that has venom...Im thinking of just milking it at home and dripping the venom on the plate of agar


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OfflineShivaMeme
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #7987104 - 02/06/08 02:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

In the paper RR links to, they mention nicotinic acid which is simply niacin - available for a couple bucks in the vitamin section and won't kill you if you acidentally prick yourself. The trade off seems to be reliability based on their document but I think the vast difference in accessability might far outweigh the lack of relaibility. They even mention the easy way to determine success in that paper...

So, you might have to inoculate 10 dishes to get one hybrid. I don't really see this as a balance to the trouble/expense/danger of snake venom. Has anyone tried niacin? Is the success rate more like in the 100s of attempts? At that point I suppose it might start to approach a balance.

Anyone know the concentration of niacin that can be used for hybridization?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: ShivaMeme]
    #7987376 - 02/06/08 03:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

There's a lot more to it than the chemicals. The chemicals simply help, but don't provide a fool proof method for sure. The trick is to get the different mycelium to exchange genetic material. Most cubensis strains will do this without venom or anything else added. With few exceptions, cubensis strains are compatible.
RR


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OfflineShivaMeme
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7989809 - 02/06/08 11:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I don't follow. So hybridization can be done without anything to weaken to cell wall: They occasionally will exchange genetic material and hybridize anyway? But snake venom is just to raise the reliability of this process to a "very reliable" level and nicotinic acid raises it to a not-as-reliable level. Correct?

If all of that is correct then I'm still curious if anyone has used the methodology described in the paper with niacin (nicotinic acid). How many tries did it take? How reliable was the method in actual numbers? And as for reliable, why does it matter if you can simply transplant three chips of mycelium into another dish from your hybrid attempt and if they all stay separate you're go for launch...

Sounds too good to be true but I don't see why it would not be.


--------------------
The curse of Genius is the constant scrutiny of lesser minds...
The curse of Stupidity is the constant delusion of Genius...
The curse of Insanity is the constant perception of scrutiny...

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: ShivaMeme]
    #7990570 - 02/07/08 05:46 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Various strains of a single species are usually compatible and will exchange genetic information via anastomosis.
RR


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7990985 - 02/07/08 10:01 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

This is a little beyond me but would it be possible then to use this technique to create a hybrid between a pan and a cube or are we saying that you could possibly cross pan florida with pan suphanburi. Are hybrids usualy more hardy or weaker then the parent species/strain?


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: joesmithjoe]
    #8064774 - 02/24/08 02:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

In almost every plant and animal hybridization can produce a stronger, faster and better offspring. However some hybrids may lose some of their reproductive abilities. This can someties be overcome through re-breeding with one of the originals. IE a 66/33% mix can reproduce again.

In cattle, hybrids of bovine(normal cattle) typically grow faster and produce more meat on less feed. However a mix of a Bison and a Bovine can only reproduce if the male is bovine. The resulting offspring calve easier, are more resistant to cold and north american diseases and convert feed into meat at a better ratio.

Same is true in humans... Hitler was a tard (ever hear of in-breeding you goose-stepping moron?)


I'm curious about the pan/cube breeding though. Since domesticated cattle and buffalo are totally different species and they can be crossed but with more difficulty I'd assume that the difficulty is inversely proportionate to the similarity of the subjects, but possible. I guess making sure they like the same substrate might be something to keep in mind.


--------------------
The curse of Genius is the constant scrutiny of lesser minds...
The curse of Stupidity is the constant delusion of Genius...
The curse of Insanity is the constant perception of scrutiny...

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Edited by ShivaMeme (02/24/08 02:41 PM)


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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8089845 - 03/01/08 01:26 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Where can I get it RR? What's the site? You don't have to i'm just wondering


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #8089861 - 03/01/08 01:32 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

You have to be a lab to get it. Trust me, you don't want the investigation that goes with ordering it. It would be the near-perfect murder weapon and they know it. I went through two written applications and two separate telephone 'interviews' before being allowed to order it.
RR


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Invisibledumbfounded1600
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8089961 - 03/01/08 02:01 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

FUUUCK that haha...I thought it was easy as ebay....

I've heard of people in India smoking cobra venom and it didn't seem lethal then or when ingested..


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8113252 - 03/06/08 08:50 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
You have to be a lab to get it.  Trust me, you don't want the investigation that goes with ordering it.  It would be the near-perfect murder weapon and they know it. I went through two written applications and two separate telephone 'interviews' before being allowed to order it.
RR




Let's just put it in poor mans terms, your better off milking a rattlesnake yourself :cool:, plus, you get some cool points! get that sucker to juice and then drop some on agar :grin:.

Has anyone tried hybridizing different species of Psilocybin mushrooms? There is a possibility that, in some way, a cube can take some characteristics from a azur. maybe? Say, an Azur. with a cubies size :cool: that would be way revolutionary.


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: bryanbzl]
    #8229844 - 04/02/08 05:44 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah dude, Seriously If you feel up for handling a couple of rattlesnakes I say go for it. just make sure you buy THICK THICK THICK industrial full length arm gloves. And be careful, for gods sake. LOL!


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #8230694 - 04/02/08 08:54 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks roger for the link to this most interesting article. I have a friend that I work with who has some of these rattlesnakes and he said he would milk them for me to give this a shot. He is a expert in the field and is proficient with the techniques. I have 2 Coprinus Comatus strains that I would like to work with and if standard mating strategies do not come through I just might give this a shot. Thanks! If you have any more links for this I would love to see them. I take it if I try this I would have to supply him with a sterilized milking container, yes? I would like to know how they purified venom.


Edited by lipa (04/02/08 09:05 PM)


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Offlinestriker
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: lipa]
    #8620703 - 07/11/08 08:09 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

could they sterilize the venom with a germicidal UV lamp?


Edited by striker (07/11/08 08:14 AM)


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: striker]
    #8620900 - 07/11/08 09:08 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

striker said:
could they sterilize the venom with a germicidal UV lamp?




Thats a good question. I would like to know as well.


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OfflineMaverick
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: lipa]
    #8620928 - 07/11/08 09:19 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

This is interesting and all, and it's far from the first time I've read it, but what I'm wondering is, does the type of rattlesnake venom matter?  Some rattler species have more of a neurotoxin that won't break down cellwalls the way hemotoxins do.

Also, the venom should be sterile, or at least very clean for a secreted liquid from a snake's organs.


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #8620977 - 07/11/08 09:34 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

They said it is the western diamondback rattler (Crotalus atrox) venom  that they use. Did you read the link Roger provided.


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8621084 - 07/11/08 10:08 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

oh and RR, on that note if you didnt use all of your red boy spores why dont you repeat it with your PR and RB hybrid and make it 75% RB and 25% PR




Isn't that exactly what I said I did in my last post? :shrug:

The 75% RB/PR cross used up the last of the original 20 year old spores.  It's all covered in the Redboy thread from four years ago.
RR




I did some trades with PF when he came on here a few years ago to sell his flowhood. I got a container full of some RB spores he had. I'm not sure if they would have been the ones you are talking about. I still may possibly have some left.


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: Jrsxt]
    #8624344 - 07/12/08 04:25 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Be carfull guys! that was a snake byte might cause!

















here is the snake


Goodluck and be SAFE!!!


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: dstark]
    #8624488 - 07/12/08 07:22 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

The venom will have to be purified.  I think they use vacuum to draw it through a micron filter prior to freeze drying.  Since it's not heat stable, you have to add it to already sterilized and cooled agar, just before it solidifies.  It's certainly not a home-type operation, even if you do have a flowhood and freeze drying equipment.
RR


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: dstark]
    #8624695 - 07/12/08 09:18 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

dstark said:
Be carfull guys! that was a snake byte might cause!

















here is the snake


Goodluck and be SAFE!!!






Is that you dstark? Regardless i'da cut hat fuckers head off and manslaughter the whole race. If it was in self defense though you learn.


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #8628287 - 07/13/08 06:01 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

No its not me...

Just an example of what unsafty might cause -.-


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8644589 - 07/16/08 09:10 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
The venom will have to be purified.  I think they use vacuum to draw it through a micron filter prior to freeze drying.  Since it's not heat stable, you have to add it to already sterilized and cooled agar, just before it solidifies.  It's certainly not a home-type operation, even if you do have a flowhood and freeze drying equipment.
RR




Naw, you can do it at home just fine if you have a spare syringe barrel and a $5 micropore filter.  Not terribly difficult, I filter sterilize things all the time.

I don't really see any reason to freeze dry it either since you'll just be reconstituting it again anyways.  As long as you don't have to store it that long you shouldn't need the freeze drying.


-FF


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: fastfred]
    #8646797 - 07/17/08 12:22 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You might need to have a low-protein-binding filter to do it though.  What exactly is the venom?  (I'm being lazy asking instead of searching, sorry.)

I don't see any reason it wouldn't work just fine with the appropriate syringe filter.

Just be careful not to stick yourself with a needle!


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8674295 - 07/23/08 11:20 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

:nothingtoadd:


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: fastfred]
    #8721465 - 08/03/08 08:54 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Crap, that snakebite arm reminds me of a nightmare I had.  What's that netting they put over it?  Is that how they do a skin graft?


From what I know about snakes they either have hemotoxin (rattle snakes) or neurotoxin (sea snakes i.e.)  Hemotoxin which is known for rapidly breaking down blood cells.  Like in the pics the skin and muscle basically melts off as all the blood vessels are destroyed. I'm guessing that if rattlesnake hemotoxin breaks down spore and mycelium cell walls then any hemotoxin could possibly work.  I'm not sure if there is anything specific about rattlesnake vemon that allows it work on mushrooms, it was probably just abundant, available and the first type of hemotoxin they tested.  If that's true then any hemotoxin could work, in the right amounts which includes many snakes, all vipers that I know of, and other types too.  Also some spiders, (not sure which ones), some scorpions, bearded lizards and gila monsters, etc... 

I'm not sure if bees have hemo or nuero toxin, but i'm almost certain the have hemotoxin.  If they have hemo then that could be a safe and cheap alternative to getting your hands on some working venom.  It wouldn't be difficult to trick a captured bee into releasing it's venom sack into something soft where it could be collected.  Who knows how much you'd need...  Bee's have a lot less venom then snakes, and I don't think it's as potent, but then again spores aren't very big.

Who else can think of a safer (then snakes) way to get some hemotoxin for testing?


:Edit:  i just learned that some rattlesnakes like the Mojave Rattlesnake have a mixture of hemo and nuero venom.


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Edited by MeltingPenguin (08/03/08 09:13 PM)


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: MeltingPenguin]
    #8723191 - 08/04/08 08:44 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I find the whole rattlesnake toxin deal a bit fishy. Why use a haemotoxin to weaken a chitinous cell wall? Can't find any publications of people using the method either (only the Holliday paper and their patent). Not before and not after. It would be interesting to hear what a real mycologist (specialized in hybridization of course :smile:) would say about it.


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: Pinback]
    #8733193 - 08/06/08 11:10 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I am almost excited for the day one of the novices here gets in serious trouble with a snake.

Who was it that recommended arm length thick rubber gloves......?  Go shoot yourself.  That is the most sure fire way of getting a bite somewhere other than your hand.

The only safe way to handle a snake is to respect it and give it distance.  I use hooks 99.9% of the time.  I've free handled more snakes than I can count, but that's 15 years of experience with DNR studies and working in a breeding facility.  Not picking them up from under logs on my family camping trip.  If you have to handle one for conservation or observation, you should always be in the company of at least one other experienced handler and ensure you are in a "Hot Room" to ensure the safety of others in the area.  Please don't think that you guys need to be collecting snake venom to make some "Special Mushroom."


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: Psoulocybe]
    #8739346 - 08/07/08 02:29 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

It would be interesting to hear what a real mycologist (specialized in hybridization of course :smile:) would say about it.




John Holliday IS a real mycologist.  Write him to ask for more info if you wish.  He owns www.alohamedicinals.com

This whole damn thread has drifted way off topic and is about to get locked.

This is the advanced mycology forum. It's not intended to be a forum on snake handling safety.  Nobody is going to grab a snake from under a log and extract purified venom from it.  That's why specialty labs that produce purified, freeze dried venom can charge(and receive) four to five times the street price per gram of cocaine for their product.

Anyone with actual experience to relate may feel free to do so.  As far as I know, I'm the only member of the shroomery who has used purified snake venom in mycology experiments, and have already written of my experiences.
RR


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: dstark]
    #9104012 - 10/20/08 12:26 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

The doctors made things worse for the guy in the pics.
In the olden days... Dr.s were quick to try cutting you open, saying that swelling tissue squeezed by tight skin caused extra tissue damage, as well as restricting blood flow to good tissue, and that splitting the skin was the only way they could save the limb.
The real deal is that it is easier for them to stitch a strait line then the jagged spirals that happen on the (VERY RARE) occasions swelling gets bad enough to tear the skin.
Not to mention the boat payments you will make for them while paying for tissue scraping sessions, heavy duty antibiotics for secondary infections, skin grafts, muscular reconstruction, and rehab. On top of the cost for Antivenin, transport, hospital stay.

They now say that you are NOT to split the skin like that.
Turns out that the swelling can help to stop the spread of the venom. The rate of deadly, secondary infection is very high. AND... Studies have shown that in may cases the tissue damage is less, and the healing faster if left alone.

This thread has been going for a while. Don't know about everyone else but I would like to SEE some results.

OH, BY THE WAY...
 
I have Broadband Copperhead and Western Diamondback venom available. Sterile collected and dried under vacuum at room temp. Trust me this venom is still very active.

I WILL NOT HAND THIS SHIT OVER TO JUST ANYBODY!!! NO PM'S
Convince me you have done your research on both. Mycological procedures and snakebite protocol.
NO PM's. 
Post what you know.
The process you will use.
How you will safely, handle the venom samples. 
What you will do if you envenom-ate yourself.
I WILL NOT HAND THIS SHIT OVER TO JUST ANYBODY!!! NO PM'S
 

Quote:

dstark said:
Be carfull guys! that was a snake byte might cause!

















here is the snake


Goodluck and be SAFE!!!




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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: cricket] * 1
    #9104463 - 10/20/08 02:22 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Slightly off topic, but for those of you who are exposed to the possibility of snake bite, I learned something the other day in EMT training.  The latest thing to treat venomous snake bites is high voltage, low current DC electric shock.  If administered within minutes of the bite, it will completely neutralize the venom.

The easiest way to get the correct voltage is with those BBQ grill push button igniters that create a spark to light the grill.  Get one of them and attach a washer to one terminal to hold your fingers against, and then touch the patient with the tip and push the button while holding the patient near the bite with your other hand.  The electric shock will travel through both you and the victim, and you'll feel the jolt, but it's not too bad.  Administer a few dozen shocks around the bite, and by the time the patient gets to the hospital, there will be no sign of venom in his or her body.

The theory of operation is that the voltage destroys the protein, which is what venom is composed of.  At least that's what the instructor said.  He's used it a few dozen times in Arizona and Southern California, and each time the patient has had zero effects from the bite, IF administered within half an hour of the bite.

Those of you who handle snakes would do well to get one at a hardware store and keep it handy.  I bought two, one each for my wife's and my own first aid kits that we take hiking.
RR


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9104481 - 10/20/08 02:26 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Thats pretty darn cool Roger. Thanks for the tip.

LIPA


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: lipa]
    #9123193 - 10/23/08 07:48 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I wouldn't put too much faith in a grill lighter saving you from a snakebite.  Seems there is some conflicting research in the literature.

Quote:


Electric shock does not save snakebitten rats
Annals of Emergency Medicine, Volume 17, Issue 3, March 1988, Pages 254-256
Nathan R Howe, John L Meisenheimer Jr

A team of missionary doctors from Ecuador recently described striking success in the treatment of venomous snakebites with a series of brief, high-voltage, low-current electric shocks applied to the bite site. We designed a randomized, controlled, blinded test of their methods in laboratory rats. Venom of the fer-de-lance, Bothrops atrox, was injected subcutaneously into rats in a series of increasing doses. Half of each dose group then was shocked with a device used by the Ecuadoran group. Envenomated animals developed hemorrhagic ulcers at the injection sites, the size of which was strongly related to venom dose. Electric shock did not influence the development of morbidity or the eventual ulcer size in sublethally envenomated animals, nor did shocks reduce mortality in lethally envenomated animals. We conclude that shocks are without effect on snakebitten rats, and we discuss implications of our findings for the treatment of snakebitten human beings.




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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: fastfred]
    #9123296 - 10/23/08 08:06 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah. I ran into that article too and now I have second thoughts about it.


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: lipa]
    #9129442 - 10/24/08 11:16 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

electric shock has been proven not to work on any type of venom.


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: cricket]
    #9133307 - 10/25/08 06:39 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

If I was bitten I would still zap the shit out of my self till help came, it may act differently on humans.


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9133634 - 10/25/08 07:50 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Strange. To say the least.


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9133708 - 10/25/08 08:04 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

check this out....it is also used for bees, scorpions and spider bites......very interesting rodger...you seem to have a  plethora of knowledge in your skull.  :thumbup:                          bees, spiders, snakes, and scorpions.


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: rugergirl79]
    #9133842 - 10/25/08 08:30 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

It works on rattlesnakes for sure.  The ambulance drivers in southern california carry the bbq grill igniters with them and that's what they use.  I trust my EMT instructor who's used it many times, and he's the one I learned it from.  Since I now live in Eastern WA and hike in rattlesnake country, I carry one all the time.  I'm actually more worried about my dog getting bit than me.  She has to chase all the squirrels, and really doesn't pay much attention to where she goes.

As for the above referenced study with rats, it must be remembered that rattlesnakes secrete venom into the rats not just to kill them, but to start the digestive process.  When a snake bites a human, it's more of a warning and not nearly as much venom is deposited.  Since snakes can control the amount of venom they inject, they conserve it for food.  Don't put much weight to the FDA not approving the device for treatment.  They consider their main mission to protect the profits of the drug companies, not the health of the public.  Sad but true.
RR


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9140986 - 10/27/08 09:06 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Roger,

That is a very interesting tip.

Would you consider testing your theory on a video that you could sell here?

I would donate 100 buck to see you test the lighter  thing on yourself after a bite.

I bet others here would too.

Think about it Roger,  make a few thousand by people who wanna see someone get bit, and a few thousand more for selling the video.

If your certain that it works that is.  Why not eh?

:gethigh:


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: umbrellamaker]
    #9142455 - 10/27/08 03:00 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I'd like to see some more research on this.  Most of the research seems to be of fairly questionable quality with mixed results.  Snake bites are highly variable in toxicity with many factors affecting the potency and amount of venom delivered.  This really makes anecdotal evidence pretty worthless, even more so than usual.  I also kind of question how well any effect applies to all the various methods used to deliver the shock.  I've looked at some info detailing methods varying from stun guns to spark plug wires to BBQ lighters.  Obviously research on one method can't just be carried over to apply to every type of electric shock.

The research also is very mixed, with some experiments clearly showing no benefit.  Attempts at replicating successful experiments also seem to have failed in more than one instance.  It seems to me that the electric shock snakebite treatment is a crapshoot at best.


-FF


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: fastfred]
    #9144694 - 10/27/08 09:07 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Well, if I'm ever 20 miles up a trail in the middle of BFE and get bit by a rattlesnake, I'll be shocking the hell out of the area in question, since there's no other viable alternative, and I have the device in my first aid kit. 

I don't however plan on deliberately getting bit to test the device any more than I intend to jump out of an airplane without a parachute to test my ability to fly.
RR


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9146024 - 10/28/08 12:34 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

You think you can fly?


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: Knots_Landing]
    #9147365 - 10/28/08 10:20 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

No, but I have no intention of trying out for the Darwin award either.
RR


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9154569 - 10/29/08 03:03 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

:rofl2:


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: umbrellamaker]
    #9154575 - 10/29/08 03:05 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Hey Roger, do you think a stun gun might work too?  Or is the voltage not right?


:sith:


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: umbrellamaker]
    #9158918 - 10/30/08 11:40 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)



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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: rugergirl79]
    #9158967 - 10/30/08 11:54 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks rugergirl79,

That satisfied my curiosity.  I am getting one for my camping gear.

I am an all or nothing kind of person I guess. 

If I was to zap myself from a bite, and I had the choice between a barbecue lighter therapy or a full blown taser....

Well you guys can guess what I would do.  But I might not live to tell you lies about it later:)

Thanks again rugergirl79, nice to have your lovely scent in the room:)

Peace...


Edited by umbrellamaker (10/30/08 11:56 AM)


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: umbrellamaker]
    #9159393 - 10/30/08 01:56 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

umbrellamaker said:
Thanks rugergirl79,



I am an all or nothing kind of person I guess. 


Thanks again rugergirl79, nice to have your lovely scent in the room:)

Peace...


  teee heee:naughty:


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9165667 - 10/31/08 06:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

electric shock will only help if it knocks you unconscious.
Even then the only way it helps is by slowing your heart rate while you wait for the ambulance.

There is a large amount of data available detailing the potential beneficial effects of HVDC therapy in the form of personal testimonials, anecdotal reports, and uncontrolled case reports involving both humans and animals. In contrast, the results of controlled trials utilizing snake or spider venom injected into mice, rats, rabbits, and dogs have found HVDC therapy does not positively effect the natural course of envenomation and, in some cases, may delay wound healing. Administration of HVDC shocks is reportedly well tolerated by patients and appears to carry little intrinsic risk in otherwise normal, healthy patients. One major concern about the use of HVDC shock therapy is that patients may believe that they have been treated adequately and thus may not promptly seek appropriate medical care after a clinically significant bite or sting. HVDC shock therapy is not supported by the scientific literature and should not be considered a viable treatment option for venomous bites or stings.


http://www.herper.com/venom/electro.html

http://www.kamakazi.com/docsplace/aoi/snakbite.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3257850

http://firstaid.webmd.com/snakebite_treatment_firstaid.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3438923

this site will tell you what the worlds leading venom expert knows
http://www.avru.org/


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Edited by cricket (10/31/08 06:39 PM)


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: cricket]
    #9165760 - 10/31/08 06:41 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Getting off topic again

How would you use it in Myc. culture.


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: cricket]
    #9165893 - 10/31/08 07:15 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

electric shock will only help if it knocks you unconscious.
Even then the only way it helps is by slowing your heart rate while you wait for the ambulance.




Nonsense.  The evidence doesn't support your opinion.  It's been used hundreds, if not thousands of times by EMTs on humans who have been bitten by rattlesnakes.  No local shock is going to knock anyone unconscious.
RR


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9178421 - 11/03/08 04:18 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Seems like the links he provided have quite a few literature citations.

I'm kind of curious how this technique made it into common practice without much supporting evidence or FDA approval...


-FF


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: fastfred]
    #9179695 - 11/03/08 08:29 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I think the FDA considers it their job to protect pharma profits over public health, at least for the last 8 years.  My EMT instructor went over the FDA disapproval in class, and he was quite bitter about it, since he's used it on actual patients and seen the results.  It was silly to base their study on rats, when the obvious reason a snake bites a rat is for food, and when one bites a human, it's to scare them away.  There's evidence that the snake adjusts the amount of venom secreted under different conditions, thus the rat gets a fatal dose, and a human only gets a warning shot.

At any rate, I have a couple of the units, and they're light, so easy to carry in my first aid kit.  If I ever have need, I'll use it while on the way to the hospital.  I'm no expert on the technique, but was just reporting what I found out.  I'm a volunteer fireman, so get EMT training.
RR


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OfflineMr.Winkie
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9218705 - 11/10/08 03:28 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

wow. so this is just one way of crossing to variety??? roger rabbit could you do this with azurescens and cubensis.


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: Mr.Winkie]
    #9221253 - 11/10/08 10:23 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I wish.  So far, all attempts to cross those two have failed.  I'm sure it's only a matter of time before someone pulls it off though.
RR


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OfflineMr.Winkie
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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9221510 - 11/10/08 11:13 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

ooh. really. well looks like i have two goals:

1} crossing azurescens with a cubensis.

2} growing shrooms the size of  [fat] baby arms

Look forward to bad ass pics and crazy experiments in months to come. I'll keep everyone posted:eek:

Also can i please have your lc and substrate recipe. Pretty please. I'll guard it with my life.
I lost the lc  recipe and kind find it

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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: John Nada]
    #12408420 - 04/17/10 11:16 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

StevenMichael said:
For real???? Goddamn!



That's not nice language! You don't say that! :wink:


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: hamloaf]
    #12408635 - 04/17/10 12:03 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I posted this information last week but noone has replied in my post or been interested at all.

Instead of snake venom you can use the vibrio bacteria.  It is a chitin eater (fungi cell walls).  The bacteria will have the same effect as the snake venom.

A culture can be had for cheaper and only requires specialized agar which you could make yourself.  TCBS agar is what it is called.

If I had a permit to do research on the Psilocybe genera I would be more then happy to see what species can be crossed with this method.  I cant say for sure wether you can cross a Azure with a Cubensis for example but it is theoretically possible.  If anyone tries it please do let me know.

I have had success crossing two different Mycena species.

If you need more information feel free to PM me.


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: Ritual]
    #12408870 - 04/17/10 12:50 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Do you have a viable culture of this bacteria?
RR


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit] * 1
    #12409283 - 04/17/10 02:12 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

And which Vibrio sp. are you talking about?

Obviously you'll not be using V. cholerae.

Rather than trying to get a specific culture it might not be hard to enrich for chitin digesting bacteria.

Just make up some chitin-based agar and throw some organic samples into the mix.  Compost or soil would probably be your best bet.  Then isolate a few species and test them (or their extracts) for how well they dissolve fungal cell walls.

Here's a method for chitin preparation...

Quote:

Chitosan and its precursor, chitin, are typically prepared from waste shells of crustaceans, particularly decapod crustaceans such as crab, shrimp, crawfish, krill, lobster, squid and prawn. The conventional process for producing chitin and chitosan from crustacean shells involves grinding crustacean shells and treating the ground shells with a dilute base (e.g., sodium hydroxide) and heat to remove protein and lipids (deproteinization). Calcium carbonate is removed by extraction with a dilute acid (e.g., hydrochloric acid) at room temperature (demineralization). Following deproteinization and demineralization, the resulting product is predominantly chitin.





-FF


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: fastfred]
    #12430870 - 04/21/10 09:14 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

This threat is back to live again =]
The bacteria way sounds more friendly i would say!
I have read abit about the vibrio bacteria, most of them cause problems...


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: dumbfounded1600]
    #14038222 - 02/27/11 08:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

there may be product ready to go,.called cobroxin, in many drug stores like wallgreens, made with cobra venom.


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: albertz]
    #14039530 - 02/27/11 11:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I doubt seriously that cobroxin is nearly toxic enough to work or people couldn't swallow pills of it.  The lab grade product we use is pure venom.  It's also very hard to get.  There's a pretty intensive clearing process and background checks before they'll ship to you.
RR


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14050801 - 03/01/11 07:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

you do not ingest cobroxin, it is a topical, and it sure could not hurt to experiment with it like in an agar mix or a couple drops on the plate..i will save mine just for that purpose..would be fun to try. It is used to lessen pain and is an anti-inflamatory agent, just out last year and is selling good.


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Re: Snake Venom Into Hybrids [Re: albertz]
    #14051254 - 03/01/11 09:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

albertz are you a cobroxin salesman?  You must be digging up old threads to post about it.  Topical cobroxin is combined with many thing I dont want to put on agar with my spores and surely would'nt help in crossing strains.  I have no clue what pure cobra venom would do but for me that isn't available any way,  but cobroxin wont do shit for mycology.  If it does PLEASE prove me wrong.  If you can't please stop posting in dead threads until you can!

CH


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